How Good Was John Stockton?

[JellosJigglin]

The best compliment I can give Stockton, as a fan of an opposing team, is I hated playing against him. He was one of the toughest players in the league and as sly as a fox. And in an era where it was the land of the giants, and guards were grabbed, held, pulled, pushed, he was unflappable.

[Hangtime84]

#1 all time in the NBA in assists and steals by a wide enough margin. An all time great who was efficient all around player. Sneaky dirty with his elbows and such.

Whenever a guy reached Stockton would hook that players arm with his off arm to make sure the ref saw the foul.

Everyone in that era was sneaky dirty at times.

[Nate505]

More of a complimentary star, good defender but would be taken advantage of by the bigger faster guards of today,

Couldn't take over a game scoring, didn't have that extra gear, wherever you rank prime curry, cp3, Nash etc he is below those guys due to lack of scoring

He could take over a game scoring, but the problem was he didn't very often. Which IMO was his ultimate flaw as a player. There is such a thing as being too unselfish.

But for an example where he took over a game scoring, Game 6 of the Rockets/Jazz WCF in, uh, 97? These years start to blend to me, but that's the game where he hit the 3 (with Malone's bear hug pick on Barkley) to send the Jazz to the Finals. IIRC, he scored the last 8 points for the Jazz who were down by that amount and then hit the 3 to win the game. It was a phenomenal performance.

The problem was that there are very few of them like that one I can remember. And I say this as someone who became an NBA and Jazz fan because of the man.

[Dan Z]

Stockton also played a full 82 games in 16 different seasons. Crazy.

I think he's underrated for a few reasons. One is that he played in Utah and wasn't a flashy player. He never got publicity like other players at his level.

Two is that he never won a championship. There's the finals against the Bulls, but beyond that I don't think he has a "classic" game that fans seek out on youtube.

Three is the age of the person rating him. If you're too young to have seen him play then it's easy to miss him when talking about all time greats.

[wablty]

I think people assume he wouldn't survive in today's game going up against bigger, more athletic guards like Westbrook. But I think he'd be okay.

There were big guards in the 80s and 90s, too.

[JellosJigglin]

I think people assume he wouldn't survive in today's game going up against bigger, more athletic guards like Westbrook. But I think he'd be okay.

There were big guards in the 80s and 90s, too.

And way more physical then too. Playing Stockton/Malone was always a slugfest. I remember either Kobe or Shaq saying something like "we always knew we'd finish a game against them with a few bruises".

[CIN-C-STAR]

Top-3 PG all time. Could only put Curry & Magic ahead of him. Don't think anyone else has a case.
CP3 is a very similar player and perhaps a better scorer, but doesn't have anywhere near the durability Stockton had.
Also people knocking Stockton for his scoring numbers should consider that the pace of the game has changed. For example, Curry's best Offensive rating per 100 possessions is 125, which he has done twice. Stockton reached that same number four times, and had an Ortg per/100 of 124 in another season.
In a Mike D'Antoni offense I think Stockton absolutely could have scored at Steve Nash levels (Steve Nash best Ortg per 100 possessions in a season was 124 and 123).

[lakerz12]

I think people assume he wouldn't survive in today's game going up against bigger, more athletic guards like Westbrook. But I think he'd be okay.

There were big guards in the 80s and 90s, too.

Big and athletic? Like who? Magic and Stockton only had 4 good years or so against each other.

Throwing down tomahawk dunks like Wall and Westbrook?

I'm not saying they are right, but I can see why it's hard for people to imagine a guy that looks like John Stockton being a top PG in today's league.

He was 6'1", 175 lbs. That's tiny. Even Curry is bigger than that. Lillard is significantly bigger than that too.

[SmashMouthRod]

Stockton was a very good fundamentally sound point guard with the convenience of playing in the same system similar to Tom Brady. System players have forever been in question. Examples include Kawhi, Tom Brady, Tony Parker, John Stockton and even Steve Nash to a lesser degree. I remember Durant said this about Kawhi a few years back. However there is some merit to the thought pattern that some of the greatest players who played under elite level coaches are made to look better than they truly are. We witnessed IT3 go from nice sixth man to MVP candidate under Brad Stevens. Stockton spent his whole career in the pick and roll/pop offense so some question was he really a top fifty type of player. Could he have been traded for someone like Mark Price and turned Cleveland into a contender. Would Utah have taken a nose dive after a trade like that?

[Ontario]

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

He was the secondary scoring option, how many big point total playoff games did Karl have? John set the table for all of them.

Stockton was really good but let the guy have weaknesses. He averaged about 13ppg in his playoff career and 10 assists (despite playing huge minutes), maybe 15 and 11 if you're just taking his peak. Those aren't the stats of a guy who took over games and imposed his will on games when it mattered most (I think Nash was overrated but at his peak even he was averaging more like 20/11 and at greater efficiency, despite playing with high scorers like Amare). Stockton also initiated just about every play and got every chance to put up #s, he just wasn't a guy who could constantly produce against tough defense. He did plenty of other things well and his longevity is ridiculous, no reason not to just celebrate that.

The Utah Jazz were a half-court high percentage pick and roll offensive team, Nash's the Phoenix Suns played the run and gun with probably 20-30 or so more possessions a game. D'Antoni coined the phrase seven seconds or less, Jerry Sloan would have been totally fine with his team not taking a single shot all game before seven seconds were left on the shot clock. Now keeping that in mind look at the two point averages again but realize how amazing the assist total for John was.

If Jerry Sloan played a faster pace style of ball Stockton might be the consensus #1 PG of all time.

[Fencer reregistered]

Only two things I'd add to what's already been said:

-- How inflated were his stats from friendly score-keeping?
-- He was a master of the pick-and-roll, back when it was a lot less common tactic than it is today. I suspect that he basically brought the modern PnR into the game.

Regarding that latter point, I googled to check, and found a 1995 Sports Illustrated article that basically says the exact opposite. https://www.si.com/vault/1995/11/13/208171/the-oldest-pick-in-the-book-the-defense-usually-knows-its-coming-but-the-well-executed-pick-and-roll-is-still-pro-basketballs-most-dependable-play But to me, while basketball plays have included picks for the whole history of the NBA (and no doubt longer than that), there's something different about the unstoppable precision of the Stockton/Malone 2-man game that we've seen a lot more since them than we saw before.

(Unrelated: I'd say the same thing about the Isiah Thomas drive-and-kick.)

[Ontario]

I think people assume he wouldn't survive in today's game going up against bigger, more athletic guards like Westbrook. But I think he'd be okay.

There were big guards in the 80s and 90s, too.

Big and athletic? Like who? Magic and Stockton only had 4 good years or so against each other.

Throwing down tomahawk dunks like Wall and Westbrook?

I'm not saying they are right, but I can see why it's hard for people to imagine a guy that looks like John Stockton being a top PG in today's league.

He was 6'1", 175 lbs. That's tiny. Even Curry is bigger than that. Lillard is significantly bigger than that too.

Stockton would have zero issue playing today.

[ellobo]

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

He was the secondary scoring option, how many big point total playoff games did Karl have? John set the table for all of them.

Stockton was really good but let the guy have weaknesses already. He averaged about 13ppg in his playoff career and 10 assists, maybe 15 and 11 if you're just taking his peak. Those aren't the stats of a guy who took over games and imposed his will (I think Nash was overrated but even he was averaging more like 20/11 and at greater efficiency, despite playing with higher scorers like Amare). Stockton also initiated just about every play and got every chance to put up #s, he just wasn't a guy who could constantly produce against tough defense. He did plenty of other things well and his longevity is ridiculous, no reason not to just celebrate that.

Stockton had playoff seasons of 14.8, 13.7, 15.0, 13.8, and 13.6 assists per game, all better than Nash's best playoff year (13.3). In addition to those five top years, Stockton also had SIX additional playoff years of double figure assists, plus two more years of 9.8 and 9.6 apg. Nash had three other years of double figure playoff apg, with a next highest of 11.3. 11.3 apg would be Stockton's SEVENTH best playoff year.

Nash was a better playoff scorer for his career, but he only had two playoff seasons better than 20ppg (and one 19.5). The difference in playoff scoring per 100 possessions is Stockton 20.4 to Nash 25.0. Stockton was also a big time end of game shotmaker (on jumpers and drives), and was more aggressive looking to shoot in those situations.

Of course Stockton had weaknesses, but IMO his strengths are underrated and his weaknesses tend to be overrated.

[bizil]

You have guys like Magic, Big O, CP3, Zeke, etc. who were just as good in terms of floor generalship and dimes. BUT those guys could turn into alpha dog level scorers. That's a hell of a combination to have. From there, u have the new age era of score first PG's speaheaded by Curry and Westbrook. Those two are such dominant scorers and think like the dominant SG's or wing players.

So when it comes to Stockton, he's a top 5 GOAT PG. Because his resume dictates that. BUT if we are talking peak-prime status, I don't think he's a top 10 PG ever to be honest. However GOAT status is the KEY STATUS to get u in the HOF. So Stock gets plenty of love. PLUS had more longevity being an elite PG than anybody else in NBA history.

[SmashMouthRod]

Sloan was able to turn Carlos Boozer from a decent role player (In Cleveland) to an MVP candidate. On no other team, or at no other moment was Booz looked at like a top big in the league other than his time in Utah under Sloan. So it creates an interesting question... Would Malone have been an all-time scorer elsewhere? Would Stockton have been an all-time assists leader elsewhere?

[ellobo]

-- How inflated were his stats from friendly score-keeping?

Career split: 10.9apg at home/10.1 on the road.

[Kabookalu]

I feel like Stockton was underrated during his actual time in the league, and then became overrated after it.

[Daxel]

He is the GOAT PG, there are no players like him anymore.

[tondi123]

Stockton would be in a fistfight every night playing against the spoiled ass pansies these days. He was very physical for a PG and, as someone mentioned before, would venture into a bit of dirty play now and again. That was the whole team though as they were a reflection of their coach. He isn't a top 5 PG these days from a scoring perspective, but from a distribution/defense/leadership perspective he'd have no superior so it really depends on how you define what makes a great PG in this era.

[Ontario]

Top-3 PG all time. Could only put Curry & Magic ahead of him. Don't think anyone else has a case.
CP3 is a very similar player and perhaps a better scorer, but doesn't have anywhere near the durability Stockton had.
Also people knocking Stockton for his scoring numbers should consider that the pace of the game has changed. For example, Curry's best Offensive rating per 100 possessions is 125, which he has done twice. Stockton reached that same number four times, and had an Ortg per/100 of 124 in another season.
In a Mike D'Antoni offense I think Stockton absolutely could have scored at Steve Nash levels (Steve Nash best Ortg per 100 possessions in a season was 124 and 123).

I'm totally fine with you saying Curry is a better scorer, or shooter or even a better player... but he clearly is not a better PG, only twice in his career has Curry averaged better than 7 assists. Stockton was under 7 assists only once in his career and that was his rookie season. There is almost a 4 assists per game difference between their career averages, 9 times Stockton led the league in assists.