RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#24 2018-19

[iggymcfrack]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

While I don't disagree with you, but...Boogie has a unique skill set. At 6'11", 270 lbs to be able to rebound, pass and shoot the 3. He's a lethal offensive weapon.

Averaged 26.5 / 12 / 4 / 1.5 / 1.4 over the past 5 seasons.

These numbers in many ways are better than Embiid's (who was voted as being 11th overall). I know Embiid is a superior defender but Cousins is a bit underrated in that department imo.

Assuming Cousins gets anywhere close to what he once was, I can see why people could be high on him.

There are many good SG/SF's in this league. There are only a small handful of elite C's.

This isn't even true. Center is deeper than either of those positions right now. You have AD, Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Towns, and Capela all without even including Cousins. That's 6 guys playing at a superstar level. At SG you have Harden, Butler, Oladipo, and Mitchell. Then you have Klay who's borderline elite and Jrue who's borderline a SG. So maybe 5 there. At SF, you have Bron, Durant, Kawhi, George, and Porter. So 5 again.

[JohnWillow]

Still KP not added to pool, that's blasphemous.

[PhilBlackson]

I'll keep voting Mitchell until he's in lol he should be already imo.

But him and Horford should be a lock for these next 2 spots.

[lakerz12]

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

While I don't disagree with you, but...Boogie has a unique skill set. At 6'11", 270 lbs to be able to rebound, pass and shoot the 3. He's a lethal offensive weapon.

Averaged 26.5 / 12 / 4 / 1.5 / 1.4 over the past 5 seasons.

These numbers in many ways are better than Embiid's (who was voted as being 11th overall). I know Embiid is a superior defender but Cousins is a bit underrated in that department imo.

Assuming Cousins gets anywhere close to what he once was, I can see why people could be high on him.

There are many good SG/SF's in this league. There are only a small handful of elite C's.

This isn't even true. Center is deeper than either of those positions right now. You have AD, Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Towns, and Capela all without even including Cousins. That's 6 guys playing at a superstar level. At SG you have Harden, Butler, Oladipo, and Mitchell. Then you have Klay who's borderline elite and Jrue who's borderline a SG. So maybe 5 there. At SF, you have Bron, Durant, Kawhi, George, and Porter. So 5 again.

What I was getting at was an elite center and also with his skill set (pass and shoot 3). AD is not as good of a 3 pt shooter or passer as Boogie. Gobert doesn't have the offensive skill set whatsoever. Neither does Capela.

Boogie is the best offensive center in the league if you are looking for a combination of passing , ball handling, size and shooting.

[Mogspan]

Give me the list of NBA players EVER who posted 25/13/5.5/2/2.

I'll give you a hint: you can count them on one hand.

He's a great talent for sure, but I think you're underestimating the devastation that is an achilles tear. Here's a good 11-minute video on the subject:

I'm not interested in a debate about how much Cousins will regress because of the injury, all I (we) can go on is how he looked before the injury, and should probably deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Or we can just leave him off the list all together like we did, but then the same question should probably get posed about Porzingis at this point as well, since he probably should've been already ranked a long time ago.

It seems like you're interested in it because I think you've made a few comments about Cousins not getting appreciated. I guess you could be interested in debating whether or not our knowledge of his injury should influence our extrapolation of how good he'll be for 2018-19, which is what the poll is for. How can you not take that type of injury into account? I understand wanting to show him respect for his pre-injury play, but it is totally fair game for me (us) to hold the achilles injury against him when predicting future performance since there is so much evidence that suggests he will not be the same player. Again, I hope he's an anomaly, as the odds are not in his favor.

[clyde21]

He's a great talent for sure, but I think you're underestimating the devastation that is an achilles tear. Here's a good 11-minute video on the subject:

I'm not interested in a debate about how much Cousins will regress because of the injury, all I (we) can go on is how he looked before the injury, and should probably deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Or we can just leave him off the list all together like we did, but then the same question should probably get posed about Porzingis at this point as well, since he probably should've been already ranked a long time ago.

It seems like you're interested in it because I think you've made a few comments about Cousins not getting appreciated. I guess you could be interested in debating whether or not our knowledge of his injury should influence our extrapolation of how good he'll be for 2018-19, which is what the poll is for. How can you not take that type of injury into account? I understand wanting to show him respect for his pre-injury play, but it is totally fair game for me (us) to hold the achilles injury against him when predicting future performance since there is so much evidence that suggests he will not be the same player. Again, I hope he's an anomaly, as the odds are not in his favor.

Yes, I'm interested in ranking him based on what we saw last of him, not based on hyperbolic assumptions on what he might or might not be be after that ACL. That's not a discussion that will go anywhere.

[Mogspan]

I'm not interested in a debate about how much Cousins will regress because of the injury, all I (we) can go on is how he looked before the injury, and should probably deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Or we can just leave him off the list all together like we did, but then the same question should probably get posed about Porzingis at this point as well, since he probably should've been already ranked a long time ago.

It seems like you're interested in it because I think you've made a few comments about Cousins not getting appreciated. I guess you could be interested in debating whether or not our knowledge of his injury should influence our extrapolation of how good he'll be for 2018-19, which is what the poll is for. How can you not take that type of injury into account? I understand wanting to show him respect for his pre-injury play, but it is totally fair game for me (us) to hold the achilles injury against him when predicting future performance since there is so much evidence that suggests he will not be the same player. Again, I hope he's an anomaly, as the odds are not in his favor.

Yes, I'm interested in ranking him based on what we saw last of him, not based on hyperbolic assumptions on what he might or might not be be after that ACL. That's not a discussion that will go anywhere.

So if KD had to have his right hand amputated before this poll started, you still would have voted him as a top 5 player for 2018-19 because of what you last saw of him on the court? I know that is hyperbolic. No one is saying he'll be a useless has-been, but it is totally reasonable to project DeMarcus to be less than a star player from now on.

Edit: How good they were at their best is not what this poll is of.

[clyde21]

It seems like you're interested in it because I think you've made a few comments about Cousins not getting appreciated. I guess you could be interested in debating whether or not our knowledge of his injury should influence our extrapolation of how good he'll be for 2018-19, which is what the poll is for. How can you not take that type of injury into account? I understand wanting to show him respect for his pre-injury play, but it is totally fair game for me (us) to hold the achilles injury against him when predicting future performance since there is so much evidence that suggests he will not be the same player. Again, I hope he's an anomaly, as the odds are not in his favor.

Yes, I'm interested in ranking him based on what we saw last of him, not based on hyperbolic assumptions on what he might or might not be be after that ACL. That's not a discussion that will go anywhere.

So if KD had to have his right hand amputated before this poll started, you still would have voted him as a top 5 player for 2018-19 because of what you last saw of him on the court? I know that is hyperbolic. No one is saying he'll be a useless has-been, but it is totally reasonable to project DeMarcus to be less than a star player from now on.

Edit: How good they were at their best is not what this poll is of.

It's obvious you don't want to have a discussion in good faith. I'm out.

[ITYSL]

It's obvious you don't want to have a discussion in good faith. I'm out.

That is the pot calling the kettle black. This is a poll about 2018-19, and you only want to judge based on 2017-18. Cousins is a big man who suffered an injury that has historically been very difficult to come back from for big men, and his expected return date isnt even until late December at the earliest. And you dont even want entertain how that might be a factor in ranking him for the upcoming season? Cmon man.

[SF_Warriors]

I'm not interested in a debate about how much Cousins will regress because of the injury, all I (we) can go on is how he looked before the injury, and should probably deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Or we can just leave him off the list all together like we did, but then the same question should probably get posed about Porzingis at this point as well, since he probably should've been already ranked a long time ago.

It seems like you're interested in it because I think you've made a few comments about Cousins not getting appreciated. I guess you could be interested in debating whether or not our knowledge of his injury should influence our extrapolation of how good he'll be for 2018-19, which is what the poll is for. How can you not take that type of injury into account? I understand wanting to show him respect for his pre-injury play, but it is totally fair game for me (us) to hold the achilles injury against him when predicting future performance since there is so much evidence that suggests he will not be the same player. Again, I hope he's an anomaly, as the odds are not in his favor.

Yes, I'm interested in ranking him based on what we saw last of him, not based on hyperbolic assumptions on what he might or might not be be after that ACL. That's not a discussion that will go anywhere.

I have a gut feeling cousins will recover better than most think, but you must take into account a guy recovering from a serious injury like that and how it may potentially affect his play. Expecting cousins to play the same way he did prior to the injury, especially his first year back from it sounds ridiculous to me.

[CometGM]

Horford over some of those guys is pretty far out.

I understand the advanced metrics argument and all and he is a damned good player but there are better players on the list.

Horford should actually be higher. You must not watch enough Horford.

Ah the "you must not watch because your opinion is different than mine" argument.

Lovely.

This article captures what Horford is about (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-important-player-on-the-celtics-isnt-who-you-think/). He does things that don't show up on the box scores or even advanced metrics.

Here are some excerpts:

"Horford affects the game in subtle but pervading ways, improving the outlook of plays in which he may never touch the ball."

"What sets Horford’s screens apart is how long they last. He doesn’t simply brush up against the defender and sprint off to his spot on the floor — he maintains contact as long as possible...."

"Couple that with the attention his shooting demands this season, and Boston guards either have a clear path to the rim or can kick out to one of the best floor-spacers in the game."


Horford is so underappreciated by the casual fans it's not even funny.
So my argument still stands, because if there is any player in the NBA that you really have to watch to appreciate, it's Al Horford. Stats and metrics will not do him justice. Look and see how many times he makes the right play. It's incredible to watch.
In the end, to me, a player's impact to team wins is what makes a player better. Everywhere Horford has gone the team has gotten much better. I'm not sure what players you're saying have more impact to winning than Horford.