Kobe Bryant Breaks Down James Harden's Game

[thebigbird]

What about 5 rings and 2 NBA Final MVP's?

1 is rewarded for just being on a team, the other is an award. Neither are stats.

What about them? Every advanced number is against Kobe. You can take that and either 1) think the numbers all conspired to make Kobe look bad or 2) people's perception of him doesn't match the reality.

Advanced numbers aren't wrong. Go look at the career leaders in them. They're all all-time greats at the top. Kobe just isn't quite there.

This is the reality that people can't reconcile:

Stats do not win games. Not one game was one with TS%, PER, VORP, or regression methods.

The other reality is that the NBA is a sport that has a winner and a loser. Its competitive and the goal is to win games. If the goal was to see who accumulated the most stats then there would be a viable argument for putting stats at the top.

But lately, I hear everyone wants to be on the right side of history...history is written by winners not statkeepers......

Stats do win games, though. People say that Westbrook just stat pads but look at the Thunder's record in games he has triple doubles in. They're 104-25 in games he has a triple double in. They've won 80.6% of his triple double games.

[AdagioPace]

08 he was 6th in RAPM and 8th in PER. 09 he was 5th in RAPM and 6th in PER. 2010 is the only year that there's a gap of any size...but that's one single year and 03 which is often seen as a near peak Kobe season the story is completely flipped (PER>RAPM).

They're telling the exact same narrative as best I can tell here. A bit of noise in a couple of seasons but the overall story is verbatim.

yeah, on average maybe (considering overrated years and underrated) those metrics probably did a good job after all, at describing his game and his value within his era. In the end,you know what, his TS% or FG% and generally speaking, his shooting habits, are probably the one to blame and maybe not advanced metrics when thinking more carefully (even though many of those take care of TS%)

[An Unbiased Fan]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

[G-Mamba]

KING CLUTCH KOBE made 40 out of 151 game winners @ 26.4% FG% = MAMBA BRICK MENTALITY!
https://youtu.be/60AgKUPlC3I?t=171

Puts some context those stats lol Clutch isn't define by the game winning shots.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/

In the playoffs last 2 mins with game decided by 3 points

Kobe is 40/96 42& fg 85%ft

Lebron is 40/ 106 38% fg 73%FT

In the finals last 2 mins decide by 3 points

Kobe : 10/20 50 fg 80% ft

Lebron 4/23 17% fg 71% ft

Finals Last 5 mins decided by 5 pts

Kobe : 28/63 44% fg

Lebron : 17/62 27% fg

In the playoffs Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron but according to other stats Lebron is better at hitting game winners. There is many ways to weigh a clutch player.

Isn’t Kobe one of the worst finals shooters of all time ? If I’m not mistaken I came across an article he shoots something like 37% in the finals lol. Be clutch all you want if bron shooting 37% first 3 quarters his team not even in the game for the “clutch” to matter

Kobe in his final games of his championship averaged

26pts 9.4 boards 5.2 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 38%fg 40% from 3 85%ft 5 championship 2 finals mvp


33pt 11 board 9.3 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 45fg 33 from 3 88% ft 3 championship 3 finals mvp

Context lol
Lebrons shooting average is around .500 fg and hes below that by 5 percent but thats cause he has bully ball game compare to Kobe jump shooting midrange game. Kobe shot better from 3 but Lebron got free throw on his side. Both greats shoot worse than their average but improve on every other aspect of the game to help them. This why they are SUPERSTARS lol when they can shoot well they will make it happen other ways. Getting fouls, timing shots, blks steals rebounds. You can argue 45 percent for player that live in the paint isnt that great. Lebron scored in all time game 7 performance shot 38 percent from the field.. but he made huge impact on the game despite the off shooting night. That's what makes Kobe and Lebron great... even on off shooting night... they find ways for their teams to win.. even the stats show... how every other Category they are above their usual average. Difference between a great and good player is despite them shooting not well they can will their teams to victory. Stats should be part of the argument but cant be the only argument. Back up your statements with facts. Because Lebron shots 38 from fg in game 7 win against warriors. Lebron shot 39 percent 30 from 3 and 67 from ft for the series in game 6 but they were still able to take the warriors to 6. Its proven Lebron can shoot bad and his team does win games or even a series.

[G35]

Not one stat paints the high rankings kobe fans have of him....while you could argue it isn't conclusive there isn't ONE metric that loves Kobe enough to rank him like kobe fans do.

What about 5 rings and 2 NBA Final MVP's?

So wait, somebody else was the Finals MVP the other 3 times?!? Holy riding coattails Batman!

Its better than losing in the finals twice as many times as you have won.......

[E-Balla]

What about them? Every advanced number is against Kobe. You can take that and either 1) think the numbers all conspired to make Kobe look bad or 2) people's perception of him doesn't match the reality.

Advanced numbers aren't wrong. Go look at the career leaders in them. They're all all-time greats at the top. Kobe just isn't quite there.

Lets not go so extreme as to say they're "against him". The stats paint a picture that is less than the rose colored glasses that his fans and the media (who love la) painted. Lets not act like stats don't consider Kobe a great great player. They just show him a bit lower than many of his fans want him to be.

I think pro-kobe people and not-so-pro-kobe people focus on different aspects.
Trying to be as objective as possible:

-PER, WS etc..: underrate Kobe
-RAPM and family rate Kobe well
- accolades overrate Kobe (best player on a championship tream only 2/5, undeserved all-defensive selections)

Agreed totally. Kobe is in the 9-12 range all time IMO. Kobestans rate him top 5. Haters say he's under guys like Dr. J and Jerry West.

[G-Mamba]

KING CLUTCH KOBE made 40 out of 151 game winners @ 26.4% FG% = MAMBA BRICK MENTALITY!
https://youtu.be/60AgKUPlC3I?t=171

Puts some context those stats lol Clutch isn't define by the game winning shots.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/

In the playoffs last 2 mins with game decided by 3 points

Kobe is 40/96 42& fg 85%ft

Lebron is 40/ 106 38% fg 73%FT

In the finals last 2 mins decide by 3 points

Kobe : 10/20 50 fg 80% ft

Lebron 4/23 17% fg 71% ft

Finals Last 5 mins decided by 5 pts

Kobe : 28/63 44% fg

Lebron : 17/62 27% fg

In the playoffs Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron but according to other stats Lebron is better at hitting game winners. There is many ways to weigh a clutch player.

Kobe's elimination game stats are terrible. LeBron's are the best ever. It doesn't get more clutch than performing well when facing elimination.

Kobe in his final games of his championship averaged

26pts 9.4 boards 5.2 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 38%fg 40% from 3 85%ft 5 championship 2 finals mvp


33pt 11 board 9.3 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 45fg 33 from 3 88% ft 3 championship 3 finals mvp

Best ever ? shooting 45 from the field when most of his shots are in the paint compare to the jump shooting Kobe Bryant. Great players are great because even if their shots arent going they will find a way to win. Btw Lebron is so clutch his team is 3-6 in the finals. Even if we take away 07 spurs and 2015 2017 and 2018 warriors mrsall time best closeout performer is 3-2 in the finals.. Other than the 2015 and 2007 he has always had 2 other allstars with deep shooting team. The excuses are crazy for Lebron. I don't even want to say this because Lebron is all-time great player but its just people have to put down Kobe in order to pump up Lebron which is not right. Btw no David or Karl are not even close to Tim Duncan lol

[G35]

1 is rewarded for just being on a team, the other is an award. Neither are stats.

What about them? Every advanced number is against Kobe. You can take that and either 1) think the numbers all conspired to make Kobe look bad or 2) people's perception of him doesn't match the reality.

Advanced numbers aren't wrong. Go look at the career leaders in them. They're all all-time greats at the top. Kobe just isn't quite there.

This is the reality that people can't reconcile:

Stats do not win games. Not one game was one with TS%, PER, VORP, or regression methods.

The other reality is that the NBA is a sport that has a winner and a loser. Its competitive and the goal is to win games. If the goal was to see who accumulated the most stats then there would be a viable argument for putting stats at the top.

But lately, I hear everyone wants to be on the right side of history...history is written by winners not statkeepers......

Stats do win games, though. People say that Westbrook just stat pads but look at the Thunder's record in games he has triple doubles in. They're 104-25 in games he has a triple double in. They've won 80.6% of his triple double games.

You make my point, according to you, WB's team lost 25 games when he got a triple double. How many more games have the Thunder won when Westbrook DID NOT get a triple double.

You cannot go into a game and say, "If WB gets a triple double we will win the game."

You cannot do that with any statistic.

You either win or you lose...that is why winning is timeless. It is a defined outcome. Statistics are all probability, not certainty......

[Gooner]

What about 5 rings and 2 NBA Final MVP's?

So wait, somebody else was the Finals MVP the other 3 times?!? Holy riding coattails Batman!

Its better than losing in the finals twice as many times as you have won.......

He has been losing badly too. LeBron is the most overrated all time great, ever. That's why he pads his stats, so he can have an excuse. All he cares about is his reputation among fanboys.

[Gooner]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

That's their hypocrisy. They have to tear down Kobe, to defend their mancrush LeBron.

[thebigbird]

Puts some context those stats lol Clutch isn't define by the game winning shots.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/

In the playoffs last 2 mins with game decided by 3 points

Kobe is 40/96 42& fg 85%ft

Lebron is 40/ 106 38% fg 73%FT

In the finals last 2 mins decide by 3 points

Kobe : 10/20 50 fg 80% ft

Lebron 4/23 17% fg 71% ft

Finals Last 5 mins decided by 5 pts

Kobe : 28/63 44% fg

Lebron : 17/62 27% fg

In the playoffs Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron but according to other stats Lebron is better at hitting game winners. There is many ways to weigh a clutch player.

Kobe's elimination game stats are terrible. LeBron's are the best ever. It doesn't get more clutch than performing well when facing elimination.

Kobe in his final games of his championship averaged

26pts 9.4 boards 5.2 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 38%fg 40% from 3 85%ft 5 championship 2 finals mvp


33pt 11 board 9.3 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 45fg 33 from 3 88% ft 3 championship 3 finals mvp

Best ever ? shooting 45 from the field when most of his shots are in the paint compare to the jump shooting Kobe Bryant. Great players are great because even if their shots arent going they will find a way to win. Btw Lebron is so clutch his team is 3-6 in the finals. Even if we take away 07 spurs and 2015 2017 and 2018 warriors mrsall time best closeout performer is 3-2 in the finals.. Other than the 2015 and 2007 he has always had 2 other allstars with deep shooting team. The excuses are crazy for Lebron. I don't even want to say this because Lebron is all-time great player but its just people have to put down Kobe in order to pump up Lebron which is not right. Btw no David or Karl are not even close to Tim Duncan lol

That's completely different from elimination game stats, which is what I said. Lebron scores 11 more points per game on better efficiency and has a better record than Kobe in elimination games.

[thebigbird]

This is the reality that people can't reconcile:

Stats do not win games. Not one game was one with TS%, PER, VORP, or regression methods.

The other reality is that the NBA is a sport that has a winner and a loser. Its competitive and the goal is to win games. If the goal was to see who accumulated the most stats then there would be a viable argument for putting stats at the top.

But lately, I hear everyone wants to be on the right side of history...history is written by winners not statkeepers......

Stats do win games, though. People say that Westbrook just stat pads but look at the Thunder's record in games he has triple doubles in. They're 104-25 in games he has a triple double in. They've won 80.6% of his triple double games.

You make my point, according to you, WB's team lost 25 games when he got a triple double. How many more games have the Thunder won when Westbrook DID NOT get a triple double.

You cannot go into a game and say, "If WB gets a triple double we will win the game."

You cannot do that with any statistic.

You either win or you lose...that is why winning is timeless. It is a defined outcome. Statistics are all probability, not certainty......

No, I don't make your point for you. They win 80.6% of their games when Westbrook has a triple double. That's much higher than their percentage when he doesn't get a triple double. So, his "stats" do contribute to winning. The only reason Kobe stans hate stats is because none of them support their claim that Kobe is a top 5 player. He absolutely wasn't.

[thebigbird]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

Duncan doesn't get any hate because he doesn't have a rabid group of stans constantly overrating his career.

[G-Mamba]

Kobe's elimination game stats are terrible. LeBron's are the best ever. It doesn't get more clutch than performing well when facing elimination.

Kobe in his final games of his championship averaged

26pts 9.4 boards 5.2 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 38%fg 40% from 3 85%ft 5 championship 2 finals mvp


33pt 11 board 9.3 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 45fg 33 from 3 88% ft 3 championship 3 finals mvp

Best ever ? shooting 45 from the field when most of his shots are in the paint compare to the jump shooting Kobe Bryant. Great players are great because even if their shots arent going they will find a way to win. Btw Lebron is so clutch his team is 3-6 in the finals. Even if we take away 07 spurs and 2015 2017 and 2018 warriors mrsall time best closeout performer is 3-2 in the finals.. Other than the 2015 and 2007 he has always had 2 other allstars with deep shooting team. The excuses are crazy for Lebron. I don't even want to say this because Lebron is all-time great player but its just people have to put down Kobe in order to pump up Lebron which is not right. Btw no David or Karl are not even close to Tim Duncan lol

That's completely different from elimination game stats, which is what I said. Lebron scores 11 more points per game on better efficiency and has a better record than Kobe in elimination games.

With a losing effort why doea it matter. It should matter in championship games lol.

[G-Mamba]

Stats do win games, though. People say that Westbrook just stat pads but look at the Thunder's record in games he has triple doubles in. They're 104-25 in games he has a triple double in. They've won 80.6% of his triple double games.

You make my point, according to you, WB's team lost 25 games when he got a triple double. How many more games have the Thunder won when Westbrook DID NOT get a triple double.

You cannot go into a game and say, "If WB gets a triple double we will win the game."

You cannot do that with any statistic.

You either win or you lose...that is why winning is timeless. It is a defined outcome. Statistics are all probability, not certainty......

No, I don't make your point for you. They win 80.6% of their games when Westbrook has a triple double. That's much higher than their percentage when he doesn't get a triple double. So, his "stats" do contribute to winning. The only reason Kobe stans hate stats is because none of them support their claim that Kobe is a top 5 player. He absolutely wasn't.

Kobe stans what about players Lol.. why do they always say Kobe Mj lebron. Why ?? Lebron had tripe double in the finals in losing effort. Stats are part of the argument not the whole argument.

[G-Mamba]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

Duncan doesn't get any hate because he doesn't have a rabid group of stans constantly overrating his career.

What people say hes top 5 all time where as his stats dont say that. By advance stats Magic abird hakeem duncan are not part of it. Karl david are rated better it looks like.

[thebigbird]

You make my point, according to you, WB's team lost 25 games when he got a triple double. How many more games have the Thunder won when Westbrook DID NOT get a triple double.

You cannot go into a game and say, "If WB gets a triple double we will win the game."

You cannot do that with any statistic.

You either win or you lose...that is why winning is timeless. It is a defined outcome. Statistics are all probability, not certainty......

No, I don't make your point for you. They win 80.6% of their games when Westbrook has a triple double. That's much higher than their percentage when he doesn't get a triple double. So, his "stats" do contribute to winning. The only reason Kobe stans hate stats is because none of them support their claim that Kobe is a top 5 player. He absolutely wasn't.

Kobe stans what about players Lol.. why do they always say Kobe Mj lebron. Why ?? Lebron had tripe double in the finals in losing effort. Stats are part of the argument not the whole argument.

If you're looking for people to give you good evaluations on players, former greats are some of the worst you could ask. Look at how they've done in management positions. Magic and Jordan are two of the 10 best players ever, have 11 rings between the two of them, yet are both terrible at evaluating players and building teams.

[thebigbird]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

Duncan doesn't get any hate because he doesn't have a rabid group of stans constantly overrating his career.

What people say hes top 5 all time where as his stats dont say that. By advance stats Magic abird hakeem duncan are not part of it. Karl david are rated better it looks like.

Duncan has the second most defensive win shares of all time behind only Bill Russell. He has the third lowest DRtg of all time. He has the 6th highest DBPM of all time. He had the 6th highest VORP of all time. The advanced numbers capture his greatness.

The problem for you is that there aren't any numbers out there that support Kobe being a top 5 player of all time. Even top 10 is pushing it.

[JellosJigglin]

The contrast between this topic and the Tim Duncan greatness topic is striking. 7 pages of people correctly pointing out that stats don't reflect TD's greatness, yet...with Kobe the opposite opinion.

That's their hypocrisy. They have to tear down Kobe, to defend their mancrush LeBron.

Now that I've watched an entire season of Lebron up close, there is just something about his game that I find is lacking. Perhaps not his game, but his mental makeup. His numbers are gaudy, but he plays with a certain level of fear that I think waters down his impact. I think he's satisfied, win or lose, if he can look at his stats at the end of the night and say "not my fault", whether he took the game by the steering wheel or not.

Kobe played with a doggedness that sometimes hurt his numbers, but it was that "win at all costs and live with the consequences" mentality that I feel can't be quantified or put on paper. There were just too many games I saw him drag the team to victory that they had no business winning. Too many shots that made me say "wtf are you doing" only to watch it fall in (or more often, miss!). His game just had me on the edge of my seat every night, because I knew he was going to leave it all on the floor. It was amazing to watch and I miss the guy.

[G-Mamba]

No, I don't make your point for you. They win 80.6% of their games when Westbrook has a triple double. That's much higher than their percentage when he doesn't get a triple double. So, his "stats" do contribute to winning. The only reason Kobe stans hate stats is because none of them support their claim that Kobe is a top 5 player. He absolutely wasn't.

Kobe stans what about players Lol.. why do they always say Kobe Mj lebron. Why ?? Lebron had tripe double in the finals in losing effort. Stats are part of the argument not the whole argument.

If you're looking for people to give you good evaluations on players, former greats are some of the worst you could ask. Look at how they've done in management positions. Magic and Jordan are two of the 10 best players ever, have 11 rings between the two of them, yet are both terrible at evaluating players and building teams.

Evaluating player and team is different. People who played against both KObe and Lebron always says Kobe... why is that ? Because they went head to head and Kobe scared them more. Kobe was killer. Kobe was a winner. Well by advance stats AD Harden and Westbrook are the best players in the league last 4 years not Lebron. Again my argument is stats aren't the only part of the argument. The other in the top in those cat are not even close to being top 10 all-time. Aka David Karl or Charles.
2013 Lebron
2014 Kevin Durant
2015 Curry
2016 advance stats Curry
2017 alot of the stats showed Russel as the best player..
2018 alot of the advance stats show Harden as the best player in the game

According to most of the advance stats... Lebron wasn't the best player in the game since 2013. He had case in 2017 but thats about it. Do you believe Lebron wasn't the best player in the game since 2013 ?