Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[homecourtloss]

He doesn’t pass the eye test.

This is not enough though. Sure the "eye test" is important, but if someone makes a claim and backs it up with substantial statistical evidence, you have to counter with more than citing the "eye test". And guess what, if something is actually true based on the "eye test", there will be statistics out there to corroborate it.

The criticism for me, based on the eye test, is that Lebron isn't giving the effort on help defense. The lowlight clips of Lebron are usually of him failing to rotate.

The stats show that Lebron is still playing his man well. Lebron is not a bad defender that can be isolated and exposed like IT. He's not even a weak link defender like Curry.

The stats don't touch on Lebron's help defense. That's where he's slipped, especially since his injury.

That’s why I also stated ON/OFF and DRPM numbers. His team is 3.1 points per 100 possessions BETTER defensively with him on court (equal to the 10th best defense with him, 23rd without him).

Now, ON/OFF has a lot of variables to it so we look at DRPM. He’s top 10%. He was a negative last year.

His team is substantially better defensively with him on court AND his DRPM is top 10%. What’s the case that his team defense is bad? I agree it’s not what it was before, but I don’t see a case for it being anything less than average at worst and even then, the numbers suggest he’s a positive in team defense.

[KqWIN]

"eye test" aka "seeing whatever I want to see" aka "not actually watching and listening to what people say" aka "anecdotal evidence presented as facts"

If it's true that LeBron's help defense is what's lacking, why are the Lakers doing so well with him on defense? 30th in the league in pure DRAPM. Seems like a lot of "eye tests" are ignoring actual results.

[Baski]

"eye test" aka "seeing whatever I want to see" aka "not actually watching and listening to what people say" aka "anecdotal evidence presented as facts"

If it's true that LeBron's help defense is what's lacking, why are the Lakers doing so well with him on defense? 30th in the league in pure DRAPM. Seems like a lot of "eye tests" are ignoring actual results.

Another poster already said it but it needs to be repeated. These "eye test" advocates only watch clips of lowlights from twitter and youtube. I personally think that while his defense may be decent, those lowlights are embarassing and disrespectful to the game and should not happen.
But those who come out with the conclusion "LeBron hasn't played defense for years now" are either delusional or ignorant.

[Baski]

Kudos to OP for the sneaky title to draw in maximum readership.

[KayDee35]

The eye test is good for evaluating talent and potential. It's awful at actual player evaluation. Not to mention that most people don't know how to use their eyes well when watching a game. And let's face it, most just rely on highlights or youtube clips for their so called "eye tests."

[LBJKB24MJ23]

lol wat a title.

[BadaBoom]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

Cherry picked? Those are literally ALL of the play types on NBA.com other than transition for which there aren’t defensive stats available. Go there and pick your own stats and see if you can create an argument for his bad defense.

He only defends someone on 1/5 of possessions?

Players whom James has defended overall season FG%: 46.5%.
FG% when defended by James: 42.7% (-3.8%, 10.1 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

He defends about the same # of shots as Kawhi and slightly fewer than the others.

The real question here is : who are "players whom x defended" ?
Lebron doesn't often defend on the best wing player while Kawhi will most of the time. So in the end if they got the same "defensive stats" it does not have the same weight on the game...

Is there somewhere a "stat" indicating time spent defending on player x ?
example : vs the raptors Lebron defended :
35% on Kawhi
20% on Green
10% on Lowry
etc...

[leolozon]

Kudos to OP for the sneaky title to draw in maximum readership.

If the stats showed that he was indeed horrific, we would be up to 10 pages by now. Max readership, but negativity draws more responses.

[Baski]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

Cherry picked? Those are literally ALL of the play types on NBA.com other than transition for which there aren’t defensive stats available. Go there and pick your own stats and see if you can create an argument for his bad defense.

He only defends someone on 1/5 of possessions?

Players whom James has defended overall season FG%: 46.5%.
FG% when defended by James: 42.7% (-3.8%, 10.1 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

He defends about the same # of shots as Kawhi and slightly fewer than the others.

The real question here is : who are "players whom x defended" ?
Lebron doesn't often defend on the best wing player while Kawhi will most of the time. So in the end if they got the same "defensive stats" it does not have the same weight on the game...

Is there somewhere a "stat" indicating time spent defending on player x ?
example : vs the raptors Lebron defended :
35% on Kawhi
20% on Green
10% on Lowry
etc...

Lmao this is trying too hard. This only makes sense if player's shooting percentages were split based on exactly who defends them.

[FlatearthZorro]

Not going to argue that he is a horrific defender (or not), but that is not a proof.

It does not include if Lebron avoids difficult situations to the detriment of his teams defensive success and just (cherry) picks easy situations where he wants to defend(who produce a good statistical output).

He's guarded the most offensively challenged opponents he's faced the past 4-5 years, more or less.

[alebaba]

I can careless about all these stats, from all the games I've seen him play hes been lazy on defense. I would love to see advance stats on the year he won shaqtin a fool.

[iggymcfrack]

LeBron’s defense has fallen off greatly, but it’s still probably better than Kobe’s ever was at any point in his career. He’s just protecting the rim and getting in rebounding position more and closing out in shooters less so he doesn’t get effort points when you watch him play.

[spikeslovechild]

Since Ball has went down opposing teams (Lebron on, Ball off) are attempting 37.5% of their shots as three pointers, PPP 1.117. Prior they were attempting 33.1% of their shots as 3PT (Lebron on, Ball on) PPP 1.062. The real problem is when Lonzo went down they could no longer hide him on defense and he doesn't want to run around the court contesting shots creating a 5-4 situation.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

Cherry picked? Those are literally ALL of the play types on NBA.com other than transition for which there aren’t defensive stats available. Go there and pick your own stats and see if you can create an argument for his bad defense.

He only defends someone on 1/5 of possessions?

Players whom James has defended overall season FG%: 46.5%.
FG% when defended by James: 42.7% (-3.8%, 10.1 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

He defends about the same # of shots as Kawhi and slightly fewer than the others.

The real question here is : who are "players whom x defended" ?
Lebron doesn't often defend on the best wing player while Kawhi will most of the time. So in the end if they got the same "defensive stats" it does not have the same weight on the game...

Is there somewhere a "stat" indicating time spent defending on player x ?
example : vs the raptors Lebron defended :
35% on Kawhi
20% on Green
10% on Lowry
etc...

Kawhi absolutely doesn’t defend the best guy often. He is used a lot more as an offball defender than an onball man defender though in clutch moments we leverage his man D a lot more.

[TheGOATRises007]

It's not Lebron being horrific at defense.

It's him being nonexistent at times.

Kuzma pushing him to guard someone should never happen.

[Sofia]

As of this morning, March 25th,

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/

LeBron, 2019 I’m sure there are others, but LeBron’s the only one not in the bottom half of any of these play types per NBA.com. Even 2016 Kawhi and Dray, 2018 Roberson and RoCo had bottom 50%stats in certain play types. Giannis, Kawhi, and PG13 all Have bottom 50% stats.

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

PG13

Top 12% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 23% in defending hand offs
Bottom 16% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 27% in defending off of screens
Top 13% in defending in ISO
Top 5% in post up defense
Top 19% in spot up defense

Kawhi

Top 32% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 5% in defending hand offs
NO DATA (didn’t defend at least 10times) in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 34% in defending off of screens
Top 5% in defending in ISO
Bottom 44 in post up defense
Top 24% in spot up defense

Giannis

Top 30% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 44% in defending hand offs
Top 44% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 32% in defending off of screens
Top 17% in defending in ISO
Top 7% in post up defense
Top 23% in spot up defense

KD

Bottom 27% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 41% in defending hand offs
Bottom 10% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 32% in defending off of screens
Top 18% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Bottom 34% in spot up defense

Draymond

Bottom 33% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 29% in defending hand offs
Top 25% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 15% in defending off of screens
Top 52% in defending in ISO
Top 17% in post up defense
Bottom 38% in spot up defense

Siakam

Top 34% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 15% in defending hand offs
Top 10% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 35% in defending off of screens
Top 30% in defending in ISO
Top 19% in post up defense
Top 16% in spot up defense

For comparison

Kawhi, 2016

Top 10% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 22% in defending hand offs
Top 2% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 31% in defending off of screens
Top 17% in defending in ISO
Top 29% in post up defense
Top 25% in spot up defense

Draymond, 2016

Top 29% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Bottom 43% in defending hand offs
Top 25% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 2% in defending off of screens
Top 15% in defending in ISO
Top 11% in post up defense
Top 34% in spot up defense

LeBron, 2016

Top 12% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 3% in defending hand offs
Top 16% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 15% in defending off of screens
Top 7% in defending in ISO
Top 27% in post up defense
Top 13% in spot up defense

Roberson, 2018

Top 42% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 17% in defending hand offs
Bottom 46% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 27% in defending off of screens
Top 34% in defending in ISO
Top 16% in post up defense
Top 17% in spot up defense

RoCo, 2018

Bottom 49% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 34% in defending hand offs
Bottom 13% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 42% in defending off of screens
Top 18% in defending in ISO
Bottom 14% in post up defense
Top 44% in spot up defense

This is amazing

[Jzmaxoct]

As of this morning, March 25th,

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/

LeBron, 2019 I’m sure there are others, but LeBron’s the only one not in the bottom half of any of these play types per NBA.com. Even 2016 Kawhi and Dray, 2018 Roberson and RoCo had bottom 50%stats in certain play types. Giannis, Kawhi, and PG13 all Have bottom 50% stats.

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

PG13

Top 12% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 23% in defending hand offs
Bottom 16% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 27% in defending off of screens
Top 13% in defending in ISO
Top 5% in post up defense
Top 19% in spot up defense

Kawhi

Top 32% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 5% in defending hand offs
NO DATA (didn’t defend at least 10times) in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 34% in defending off of screens
Top 5% in defending in ISO
Bottom 44 in post up defense
Top 24% in spot up defense

Giannis

Top 30% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 44% in defending hand offs
Top 44% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 32% in defending off of screens
Top 17% in defending in ISO
Top 7% in post up defense
Top 23% in spot up defense

KD

Bottom 27% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 41% in defending hand offs
Bottom 10% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 32% in defending off of screens
Top 18% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Bottom 34% in spot up defense

Draymond

Bottom 33% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 29% in defending hand offs
Top 25% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 15% in defending off of screens
Top 52% in defending in ISO
Top 17% in post up defense
Bottom 38% in spot up defense

Siakam

Top 34% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 15% in defending hand offs
Top 10% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 35% in defending off of screens
Top 30% in defending in ISO
Top 19% in post up defense
Top 16% in spot up defense

For comparison

Kawhi, 2016

Top 10% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 22% in defending hand offs
Top 2% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 31% in defending off of screens
Top 17% in defending in ISO
Top 29% in post up defense
Top 25% in spot up defense

Draymond, 2016

Top 29% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Bottom 43% in defending hand offs
Top 25% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 2% in defending off of screens
Top 15% in defending in ISO
Top 11% in post up defense
Top 34% in spot up defense

LeBron, 2016

Top 12% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 3% in defending hand offs
Top 16% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 15% in defending off of screens
Top 7% in defending in ISO
Top 27% in post up defense
Top 13% in spot up defense

Roberson, 2018

Top 42% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 17% in defending hand offs
Bottom 46% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 27% in defending off of screens
Top 34% in defending in ISO
Top 16% in post up defense
Top 17% in spot up defense

RoCo, 2018

Bottom 49% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 34% in defending hand offs
Bottom 13% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Bottom 42% in defending off of screens
Top 18% in defending in ISO
Bottom 14% in post up defense
Top 44% in spot up defense

This is amazing

We need frequency for better analysis. For example, Lebron is only average in spot up, but i think that spot up possessions usually have high frequency.

[LKN]

I think Lebron's probably been averagish on defense. This was posted on the PC board (I'm shamelessly stealing it) and I think is a good counterpoint to the play data posted:

He certainly hasn't been ass like he was for that stretch last season. But no, Lebron hasn't been a particularly good defender this season. 'Availability is the best ability'. In scenarios where he's put himself in place to defend he's good, but regularly gets out of position and just does nothing at all. Low DFGA/minutes ratio (97th in minutes, 164th in DFGA) and 3rd lowest avg defensive speed among guys who've played ('ahead' of Dirk/Harden).

[DaddyCool19]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

Cherry picked? Those are literally ALL of the play types on NBA.com other than transition for which there aren’t defensive stats available. Go there and pick your own stats and see if you can create an argument for his bad defense.

He only defends someone on 1/5 of possessions?

Players whom James has defended overall season FG%: 46.5%.
FG% when defended by James: 42.7% (-3.8%, 10.1 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

He defends about the same # of shots as Kawhi and slightly fewer than the others.

But who does he guard? Do they put him on the best player like PG? Or is that the job of someone else? That should also be included when you are rating them, right?

[drstarheel]

IF Lebron is still playing good defense AND

Lebron is putting up almost identical stats to last year AND

The Lakers without Lebron are better than the Cavs without Lebron THEN

Why are the Lakers with Lebron so much worse than the Cavs with Lebron?

Is it because of the East vs West level of competition? Were Lebron's teammates in Cleveland better than everyone made them out to be? Or is Lebron just giving up on defense this year?