RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#21 2019-20

ProcessDoctor · Post #41 » by **ProcessDoctor** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:40 pm

Nominate Vucevic

iggymcfrack · Post #42 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:31 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:nominate VUCEVIC

If you're starting a team right now, would you rather take someone like Conley or Lowry over Vucevic? Don't be crazy.

If I was starting a team I'd rather have Mitchell Robinson than Chris Paul, but that certainly doesn't mean I expect him to be a better player in 2019-20. Those are completely different questions.

OP never specified time frame.

If it is only for 2019-20, then why was Durant one of the original options? He's not even playing...

I'm treating it as best player moving forward for the foreseeable future.

I would still take Vucevic over Lowry and Conley for this season.

2019-20 is the time frame, it’s right in the title. Durant’s in the poll because he could return in April and be around for the playoffs and people love him. If it was going forward, Doncic and Simmons should be above LeBron who went #3. The poll would look dramatically different.

lakerz12 · Post #43 » by **lakerz12** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:43 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
If I was starting a team I'd rather have Mitchell Robinson than Chris Paul, but that certainly doesn't mean I expect him to be a better player in 2019-20. Those are completely different questions.

OP never specified time frame.

If it is only for 2019-20, then why was Durant one of the original options? He's not even playing...

I'm treating it as best player moving forward for the foreseeable future.

I would still take Vucevic over Lowry and Conley for this season.

2019-20 is the time frame, it’s right in the title. Durant’s in the poll because he could return in April and be around for the playoffs and people love him. If it was going forward, Doncic and Simmons should be above LeBron who went #3. The poll would look dramatically different.

The title is not definitive or explicit. It could refer simply to the season in which we are conducting the poll. You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

You're really reaching with Durant, too. He's not coming back in April and even if he did, he is still not a top option for this season. I repeat, why would the OP put him as one of the original options if he was thinking strictly about this season?

It is possible that people could say, from an abstract point of view, they still consider Durant a top player right now. Even though he is injured. That could have been OP's thinking.

Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

iggymcfrack · Post #44 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:31 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
OP never specified time frame.

If it is only for 2019-20, then why was Durant one of the original options? He's not even playing...

I'm treating it as best player moving forward for the foreseeable future.

I would still take Vucevic over Lowry and Conley for this season.

2019-20 is the time frame, it’s right in the title. Durant’s in the poll because he could return in April and be around for the playoffs and people love him. If it was going forward, Doncic and Simmons should be above LeBron who went #3. The poll would look dramatically different.

The title is not definitive or explicit. It could refer simply to the season in which we are conducting the poll. You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

You're really reaching with Durant, too. He's not coming back in April and even if he did, he is still not a top option for this season. I repeat, why would the OP put him as one of the original options if he was thinking strictly about this season?

It is possible that people could say, from an abstract point of view, they still consider Durant a top player right now. Even though he is injured. That could have been OP's thinking.

Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

Oh yeah, if I’m starting a team that’s gonna play one season only and then disband, Conley and Lowry are both in my top 20. The Raptors have had a huge overhaul. Ibaka and Powell are the only top 10 minutes guys even on the team last year from 2017 and Lowry held his value just fine. I’d have Vucevic somewhere around 25. All of them would be ahead of Westbrook, Kyrie, and Blake Griffin no problem.

Westbrook’s another player that doesn’t fit your thesis. Having him top 15 for the coming season is bad enough. If it was going forward he shouldn’t even be top 60. He’s already in rapid decline. Also, it does say “top players” in the title. Not “top assets”, “best trade value”, or “best potential”. I think you really have to reach to read that as who you want for 5-10 years. Oh, and most of all, 2019-20 can’t refer to the season we’re conducting the poll since that season doesn’t start for another 2.5 months. If it was just when we’re conducting the poll, it would say “2019 top 25” or “summer 2019 top 25”. The fact that it refers to a specific season that hasn’t started yet should make it pretty clear what time frame it’s referring to.

sixerswillrule · Post #45 » by **sixerswillrule** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:17 pm

lakerz12 wrote:You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

Almost no one would vote for Draymond or Westbrook over Doncic if they were basing it over the next several years.

But Draymond and Westbrook were voted in much earlier than Doncic because they are not basing it over the next several years.

mademan · Post #46 » by **mademan** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:14 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

By strict impact numbers, Lowry and Conley (especially Lowry) have been better for 5 years straight. At least for Lowry, that 5 years has seen tremendous roster turnover and he has still, consistently, had strong impact on a perennial 50 win team. No doubt this can change quick with Lowry's age, but the better bet is the more impactful player stays the more impactful player, until he doesnt.

TheNG · Post #47 » by **TheNG** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:19 pm

I don't get it why people here care whether Durant is in the voting options or not, nobody is going to look at the list of the candidates when the list is done... The only output from this series of threads will be an ordered list of the best 25 players. For the same reason it probably doesn't matter who is added to the candidates list from now on, since all of them will probably not be in the final list...

Effigy · Post #48 » by **Effigy** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:26 am

I voted Mitchell.

Nominate CJ McCollum.

babyjax13 · Post #49 » by **babyjax13** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:32 am

I've got Jrue here, and it's not that close.

babyjax13 · Post #50 » by **babyjax13** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:35 am

lakerz12 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
OP never specified time frame.

If it is only for 2019-20, then why was Durant one of the original options? He's not even playing...

I'm treating it as best player moving forward for the foreseeable future.

I would still take Vucevic over Lowry and Conley for this season.

2019-20 is the time frame, it’s right in the title. Durant’s in the poll because he could return in April and be around for the playoffs and people love him. If it was going forward, Doncic and Simmons should be above LeBron who went #3. The poll would look dramatically different.

The title is not definitive or explicit. It could refer simply to the season in which we are conducting the poll. You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

You're really reaching with Durant, too. He's not coming back in April and even if he did, he is still not a top option for this season. I repeat, why would the OP put him as one of the original options if he was thinking strictly about this season?

It is possible that people could say, from an abstract point of view, they still consider Durant a top player right now. Even though he is injured. That could have been OP's thinking.

Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

I think people are voting for Doncic because he's really good? He just had the best rookie season since Blake Griffin's and looks like he is in waaaayyyy better shape.

iggymcfrack · Post #51 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:13 am

babyjax13 wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
2019-20 is the time frame, it’s right in the title. Durant’s in the poll because he could return in April and be around for the playoffs and people love him. If it was going forward, Doncic and Simmons should be above LeBron who went #3. The poll would look dramatically different.

The title is not definitive or explicit. It could refer simply to the season in which we are conducting the poll. You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

You're really reaching with Durant, too. He's not coming back in April and even if he did, he is still not a top option for this season. I repeat, why would the OP put him as one of the original options if he was thinking strictly about this season?

It is possible that people could say, from an abstract point of view, they still consider Durant a top player right now. Even though he is injured. That could have been OP's thinking.

Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

I think people are voting for Doncic because he's really good? He just had the best rookie season since Blake Griffin's and looks like he is in waaaayyyy better shape.

I don’t know about best rookie season since Blake Griffin (uh, Simmons?), but there is reason to think he should play a lot better in his second season. Whereas most prospects finish a short college season in March and then have the whole spring and summer to rest and prepare, Luka’s Real Madrid played 83 games between their different competitions with their final game on June 20th, 12 days after the NBA Finals. Luka actually did play about top 30 level for most of the season and then hit the rookie wall hard, shooting 39% from the field with an on/off of -12.1 in March. I’d be very surprised if he stays static in his second season the way that Simmons, Mitchell, and Tatum did.

babyjax13 · Post #52 » by **babyjax13** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:04 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
The title is not definitive or explicit. It could refer simply to the season in which we are conducting the poll. You know that people are not voting strictly for this season. For example, much of their love for Doncic comes from his potential over the next several years.

You're really reaching with Durant, too. He's not coming back in April and even if he did, he is still not a top option for this season. I repeat, why would the OP put him as one of the original options if he was thinking strictly about this season?

It is possible that people could say, from an abstract point of view, they still consider Durant a top player right now. Even though he is injured. That could have been OP's thinking.

Also, my scenario of "imagine you're starting a team" was not meant to be taken literally. It was just meant to make you isolate Vucevic vs. Lowry or Conley from a pure talent and value perspective. Because, I think some people fall in love with what Lowry and Conley can do on the right team and in the perfect situation. But on their own they are not that valuable or talented at this point in their careers.

I think people are voting for Doncic because he's really good? He just had the best rookie season since Blake Griffin's and looks like he is in waaaayyyy better shape.

I don’t know about best rookie season since Blake Griffin (uh, Simmons?), but there is reason to think he should play a lot better in his second season. Whereas most prospects finish a short college season in March and then have the whole spring and summer to rest and prepare, Luka’s Real Madrid played 83 games between their different competitions with their final game on June 20th, 12 days after the NBA Finals. Luka actually did play about top 30 level for most of the season and then hit the rookie wall hard, shooting 39% from the field with an on/off of -12.1 in March. I’d be very surprised if he stays static in his second season the way that Simmons, Mitchell, and Tatum did.

I would rather Doncic during his rookie year than Simmons, but they were both so great who really cares? Agree with you about the last part.

baldur · Post #53 » by **baldur** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:09 am

vote: chris paul
nominate: klay thompson.

shza · Post #54 » by **shza** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:03 am

Vote Lowry
Nominate Klay
Hope the OP regrets his decision to waste a voting space for 20 rounds in a 2019-20 poll on a guy who won’t play in 2019-20.

Karate Diop · Post #55 » by **Karate Diop** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:35 pm

I feel like people don't realize just how flat out awesome Ben Simmons is despite the fact that he can't shoot...

There's almost zero argument for putting someone like Kemba Walker over him for example but here we have Kemba at 19 :lol:

... **** you can even argue Simmons over Kyrie and Westbrook...

iggymcfrack · Post #56 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:46 pm

Karate Diop wrote:I feel like people don't realize just how flat out awesome Ben Simmons is despite the fact that he can't shoot...

There's almost zero argument for putting someone like Kemba Walker over him for example but here we have Kemba at 19 ... **** you can even argue Simmons over Kyrie and Westbrook...

CP3 > Jrue > Lowry > Simmons > Kemba > Kyrie > Westbrook

ProcessDoctor · Post #57 » by **ProcessDoctor** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:23 pm

Ben Simmons (22 years old): 58.2% TS, .146 WS/48, 4.1 BPM, NET RTG +6

Jrue Holiday (28 years old): 55.5% TS, .108 WS/48, 2.8 BPM, NET RTG -1

Shame on all of you.

iggymcfrack · Post #58 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:40 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:Ben Simmons (22 years old): 58.2% TS, .146 WS/48, 4.1 BPM, NET RTG +6

Jrue Holiday (28 years old): 55.5% TS, .108 WS/48, 2.8 BPM, NET RTG -1

Shame on all of you.

Win shares just give an edge to whoever’s on a good team and BPM is a poor guess at RPM. Also, no idea where you got those Net Rtg numbers. I see Jrue ahead of Simmons even on the worse team.

Pelicans with Jrue on floor: +4.4
Pelicans with Jrue on bench: -10.2
On/off: +14.6

Sixers with Simmons on floor: +2.2
Sixers with Simmons on bench: +4.6
On/off: -2.4

RPM: Jrue Holiday +4.61 (17th), Ben Simmons +1.74 (63rd)

Jazz Dog · Post #59 » by **Jazz Dog** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Until Simmons learns to shoot, not top 30. Teams will continue to learn how to use that to their advantage. Losing Jimmy and Redick will hurt them even more if Simmons doesn’t get better.

Colbinii · Post #60 » by **Colbinii** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:44 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:Ben Simmons (22 years old): 58.2% TS, .146 WS/48, 4.1 BPM, NET RTG +6

Jrue Holiday (28 years old): 55.5% TS, .108 WS/48, 2.8 BPM, NET RTG -1

Shame on all of you.

Your numbers are wildly inaccurate.

Fun fact, The pelicans went 33-49 yet when Jrue Holiday played in the game they played at a 50-win pace.