Player Rnkings Celtics vs Raptors series

[Metallikid]

Yes it is and Tatum is amazing defensively and Celtics stats go down when Tatum off the court

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

[themoneyteam2]

Anyone putting Jayson Tatum above Kyle Lowry doesn't have a clue about all the little things you need to do to win at the highest level, and is blinded by recency bias. Even without the intangibles 23.4/7/3/1.4 is not better than 19.4/5/7.5/1.4.

Yes it is and Tatum is amazing defensively and Celtics stats go down when Tatum off the court

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

Tatum is top 5 in +/- in the league I believe. Celtics splits with him off the court would be good for 25th best in the league, whereas when he's on the floor they're #2...

[Curmudgeon]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

[TheSheriff]

Yes it is and Tatum is amazing defensively and Celtics stats go down when Tatum off the court

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

The Celtics aren’t just better with him on the court, they go from the 2nd best net rating in basketball with him in, to a bottom 5 team with him off the floor. And yeah, he is absolutely better than Lowry defensively, elite wing defenders are more valuable than elite defensive guards. I think most have a good idea of how high I am on Lowry, but Tatum is definitely the better player at this point.

Tatum
Lowry
Siakam
Kemba
VanVleet
Jaylen
Smart
Powell
Ibaka
Gasol
Theis
OG

I like this ranking. Smart is getting underrated some here, but he’s been underrated for his whole career.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Boston's problem is they don't run deep, like four maybe before you hit guys like theis.

Raptors run very deep, the longer the series goes...the more those four guys break down.

[Tor_Raps]

My list

Tatum
Siakam
Brown
Lowry
Kemba
Fred
Ibaka
Norm
Gasol
Smart
OG

[bisme37]

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

I've kinda been wanting to ask you... do you watch Celtics games? Like, more than just maybe turning them on for a few minutes and then checking to see who won?

I know you watch Raps games and you're deservedly really high on your team and players. But when making a comparison between the Raps and Celts you rarely say things about the Celtics that ring true to me as someone who watches the Celtics. (I watch the Raps a lot too btw, really enjoy them.)

We know your team and players are really good. That doesn't make the other team and their players not good.

[themoneyteam2]

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

I think most would say Tatum based on how he played the last 55 games averaging 26/7/3 on 46/44/80 splits but here are the season numbers:

Box score stats:

Lowry: 19.4/5.0/7.5 on 41.6/35.2/85.7 splits

Tatum: 23.4/7.0/3.0 on 45/40.3/81.2 splits

Advanced Stats:

Lowry: 17.7 PER, 7.5 WS, 3.2 BPM, 2.8 VORP, 2.83 PIPM, 5.0 RPM, 3.20 BPM, 4.15 RAPTOR

Tatum: 20.4 PER, 6.9 WS, 4.0 BPM, 3.4 VORP, 4.38 PIPM, 3.60 RPM, 3.90 BPM, 5.24 RAPTOR

But hey, Lowry has higher win shares and a better DPM!

[Metallikid]

Yes it is and Tatum is amazing defensively and Celtics stats go down when Tatum off the court

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

Tatum is top 5 in +/- in the league I believe. Celtics splits with him off the court would be good for 25th best in the league, whereas when he's on the floor they're #2...

Here, you want a plus/minus stat that really shows how valuable a player is?

"In his eight seasons with Toronto, the Raptors are plus-2209 with Lowry on the court and just plus-97 with him off it."

https://www.tsn.ca/the-25-greatest-raptors-in-franchise-history

[And1+2]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

OG on Tatum
Siakam on Brown

Fred will probably pick up Kemba. Lowry can match against Marcus Smart.

Seems like a good matchup to me. If Hayward was playing, things get a little more complicated.

[pingpongrac]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

Unless Boston is seeking out mismatches by running through a myriad of screens, FVV likely wouldn't be guarding Brown. FVV is perfect for trying to slow down Kemba and Siakam's length would be much more valuable on Brown. Then OG on Tatum and Lowry on Smart.

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[themoneyteam2]

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

Tatum is top 5 in +/- in the league I believe. Celtics splits with him off the court would be good for 25th best in the league, whereas when he's on the floor they're #2...

Here, you want a plus/minus stat that really shows how valuable a player is?

"In his eight seasons with Toronto, the Raptors are plus-2209 with Lowry on the court and just plus-97 with him off it."

https://www.tsn.ca/the-25-greatest-raptors-in-franchise-history

Right but you made a counterpoint that the "The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor" when the poster told you the Celtics are also worse without Tatum. No ****...

Shocking that both the Raptors and Celtics do worse without one of their best players

[everdiso]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

VanVleet will be guarding Kemba.

Lowry will be helping off Smart to double on Kemba when needed.

now that Hayward is out, Brown will have to try and get his against 2 bigger, faster, longer players in OG and Siakam. Not sure that'll go well for him.

[GoCeltics123]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

[Saint Lazarus]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

Pretty much why I see this as a 6 game series at best. Hayward gets hurt at the worst time SMFH

[Metallikid]

Tatum is top 5 in +/- in the league I believe. Celtics splits with him off the court would be good for 25th best in the league, whereas when he's on the floor they're #2...

Here, you want a plus/minus stat that really shows how valuable a player is?

"In his eight seasons with Toronto, the Raptors are plus-2209 with Lowry on the court and just plus-97 with him off it."

https://www.tsn.ca/the-25-greatest-raptors-in-franchise-history

Right but you made a counterpoint that the "The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor" when the poster told you the Celtics are also worse without Tatum. No ****...

Shocking that both the Raptors and Celtics do worse without one of their best players

Yeah, but a lot of your guys argument seems to be based on +/- when Kyle's the one who is more impactful in that metric.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS

[SmartWentCrazy]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

VanVleet will be guarding Kemba.

Lowry will be helping off Smart to double on Kemba when needed.

now that Hayward is out, Brown will have to try and get his against 2 bigger, faster, longer players in OG and Siakam. Not sure that'll go well for him.

Both teams switch everything and Boston will just set picks to get the matchup they want. If that bites Toronto in the ass, I’d expect them to switch to zone which can cause issues for the team at times.

[themoneyteam2]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

Exactly. That's the biggest advantage Boston had on Toronto this year was having FVV or Lowry on one of Tatum, Brown, or Hayward. Now Toronto can match up a lot easier and there is more attention on Tatum and Brown on the wing and more pressure for them to go off.

[GoCeltics123]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

Pretty much why I see this as a 6 game series at best. Hayward gets hurt at the worst time SMFH

Raptors are still going to have their hands full on defense though.

For example, the Celtics ran that double ball screen with Kemba about 1000 times against Toronto during the regular season, and from what I've seen, they've yet to figure out how to guard it since Gasol and Ibaka drop so far, and if you double, guys like Timelord and Theis were left wide open for layups (this happened a lot in the seeding game). In the first matchup, the Celtics ran it again and again and Toronto had no hope of stopping it.

Plays like that are going to work regardless of Hayward being in or not.

[L3GEND4RY]

Anyone putting Jayson Tatum above Kyle Lowry doesn't have a clue about all the little things you need to do to win at the highest level, and is blinded by recency bias. Even without the intangibles 23.4/7/3/1.4 is not better than 19.4/5/7.5/1.4.