What has Jordan achieved without Pippen?

[Sark]

Your comparison is more on point if the question posed was what has Pippen achieved without Jordan. Davis is a Pippen, not a Jordan.

Pippen never missed the playoffs once in his career, almost reached the ECF without MJ & also made a conference finals appearance without Jordan too

Pippen missed the playoffs in 04.

[mtron32]

A bunch of first round exits...and let's not forget at Age 33 he needed Dennis Rodman who was another Freak of Nature and HOFer to win and let's not forget his stint with the Wizards which didn't even made the playoffs.

With that said basing on the narrative here.. Can we compare MJ to AD since they basically didn't achieve anything before being paired with another all time great?

Or is Jordan immune from that kind of narrative?

Jordan absolutely needed Pippen but he never had an older HOF'r to join up with and show him the way, Jordan made Pippen the beast that he was. We still don't know if AD has that thing in him like MJ, LBJ or Kobe where they impose their will on a game but that's entirely possible, I just haven't seen it.

[Antinomy]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

Great. This stuff is all relative though.

Now post the stat lines of the opposing teams 2nd best players in each of those series. Guarantee Pippen dwarfs them in production.

[Pennebaker]

The same thing he achieved without Phil Jackson.

[VanWest82]

Went to the NBA Finals with Drew Gooden.

What has lebron achieved without Wade,Bosh,Love,AD, and NBA front office

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By beating the Pistons who just lost their 4x Defensive Player of the Year and then dropping a whopping 22PPG on 35% shooting in the Finals...

07 is in strong contention with 01 for worst eastern conference of all time. (edit: or worst conference period)

[Michael Lucky]

I hate what ifs. It is the same for those that believe mj would have won 8 straight championships if he had not retired. MJ stuck to one team and didnt get to chose all of his teammates. At the end of the day he is 6 for 6 with 6 final mvps.

[BostonCouchGM]

The Bulls before Pippen were the worst team in the East when the East was the best it's ever been. Adding Jordan made them exciting to watch and they did limp into the playoffs but they faced a loaded Bucks team, then one of the best teams in NBA history, the Celtics, the following two first rounds of the playoffs. Jordan did all he could but you can't expect a one man team to beat a team full of Hall of Famers who were all battle tested and in their primes. As soon as he got a decent player in Pippen, despite Pippen not having the best rookie season or making too much of an impact, he was able to get to the 2nd round since they didn't have to face the Celtics. But unfortunately, they lost to another all-time great team in the Pistons in the 2nd round. The next two seasons with Pippen "arriving" as a damn good player, they went to the ECF and lost to those same loaded Pistons in 6 and 7 games respectively. People act as if Jordan didn't make the playoffs pre-Pippen, then all of sudden were winning titles once Pippen got there. It's usually kids born in the 90s who didn't actually get to watch the NBA during the 80s and 90s. That's why we're forced to endure laughable posts like these.

Oh, and what did MJ achieve without Pippen? Well, he hit the winning shot leading UNC to the National Championship in 1982. Led the last amateur only team to a Gold Medal in the 1984 Olympics. He was ROY in 1985/6 and 6th in MVP voting. Injured for most of the following season he was able to come back for the playoffs and averaged 44-6-6 against arguably one of the greatest teams in NBA history which coined the phrase by the current MVP "God was disguised as Michael Jordan". The following season he finished 2nd in the MVP voting. Then in Pippen's rookie season where he averaged a whopping 8-4-2...MJ won MVP and DPOY. So...other than that, what DID he accomplish?!!!!!

[scrabbarista]

This is an absurd conversation, but, to make an attempt at meeting someone on their own level...

Jordan won his first three titles without any player that had made a single All-NBA Team before those seasons. He won his last three with those players plus Dennis Rodman, whose highest finishes before joining Jordan were two Third Teams.

By contrast, Wade had won two All-NBA First Teams, two All-NBA Second Teams, and an All-NBA Third Team before he and LeBron won their first title together. Bosh had made one All-NBA Second Team before he, James, and Wade won their first title. Kevin Love made two All-NBA Second Teams before he and LeBron won their only title together. Anthony Davis has won three All-NBA First Teams before this season.

All told, that marks two All-NBA Third Teams for Jordan's championship teammates before he won with them, versus five All-NBA First Teams, five All-NBA Second Teams, and one All-NBA Third Team for James' teammates before he won with them.

Get some help, indeed. (Pun intended.)

[Karate Diop]

This is an absurd conversation, but, to make an attempt at meeting someone on their own level...

Jordan won his first three titles without any player that made a single All-NBA Team before those seasons. He won his last three with those players plus Dennis Rodman, whose highest finishes before joining Jordan were two Third Teams.

By contrast, Wade had won two All-NBA First Teams, two All-NBA Second Teams, and an All-NBA Third Team before he and LeBron won their first title together. Bosh had made one All-NBA Second Team before he, James, and Wade won their first title. Kevin Love made two All-NBA Second Teams before he and LeBron won their only title together. Anthony Davis has won three All-NBA First Teams before this season.

All told, that marks two All-NBA Third Teams for Jordan's championship teammates before he won with them, versus five All-NBA First Teams, five All-NBA Second Teams, and one All-NBA Third Team for James' teammates before he won with them.

Get some help, indeed. (Pun intended.)

Okay... But tell me again, how many times did Jordan make it out of the first round without Pippen?

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[Hello Brooklyn]

What has LeBron done without 2 other All Stars or a top 5 teammate?

Were punishing MJ from not jumping team to team?

He won the title in 2016 with no others all stars in his team(The cavs won against a team with 3 players in the all-NBA team)...He also won 66 and 61 wins in 2009 and 2010 with Mo Williams as the second best players of the cavs.He also make the finals in 2007 at 22 years old with a very average roster at best.

But this thread was on Davis,not LBJ.

How many times are you going to repeat this nonsense?

Kyrie and Love were both All Stars and would have made the team if they didn't get injured.

By that logic, Pippen didn't make the all Star team in 98 or 91 so MJ has two Championships without another All Star.

Those Cavs team didn't win **** so irrelevant.

[Coco Costanza]

People still acting like Pippen was some life changing lottery pick for the Bulls. The man started out on the Bench and worked his way up into the lineup. He became a legend while working hard next to Jordan.

And it's worth noting that Pippen may have cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals in 1990, due to his infamous game 7 "migraine game", in which he scored 2 points. We often talk about the "what if?" years of 1994-95, but 1990 is just as intriguing to me.

[dribble1614]

LeBron is the most overrated player of all-time. Had to cheat his way to 4 rings by forming 3 separate superteams. He could never have won 6 titles with Jordan's supporting cast.

Instead had to team up with D-Wade who was a top 3 player in the league and later teamed up with Anthony Davis who is also a top 3 player in the league and arguably outplaying LeBron himself.

[scrabbarista]

This is an absurd conversation, but, to make an attempt at meeting someone on their own level...

Jordan won his first three titles without any player that made a single All-NBA Team before those seasons. He won his last three with those players plus Dennis Rodman, whose highest finishes before joining Jordan were two Third Teams.

By contrast, Wade had won two All-NBA First Teams, two All-NBA Second Teams, and an All-NBA Third Team before he and LeBron won their first title together. Bosh had made one All-NBA Second Team before he, James, and Wade won their first title. Kevin Love made two All-NBA Second Teams before he and LeBron won their only title together. Anthony Davis has won three All-NBA First Teams before this season.

All told, that marks two All-NBA Third Teams for Jordan's championship teammates before he won with them, versus five All-NBA First Teams, five All-NBA Second Teams, and one All-NBA Third Team for James' teammates before he won with them.

Get some help, indeed. (Pun intended.)

Okay... But tell me again, how many times did Jordan make it out of the first round without Pippen?

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To answer your absurdly reductionist question: zero times in three seasons.

To provide a bit more context to the answer to that absurdly reductionist question:

23 year-old Jordan in his third season put 35.7/7.0/6.0/2.0/2.3 on 40/40/90 against a team that lost in 6 in the NBA Finals.

22 year-old Jordan in his second season put 43.7/6.3/5.7/2.3/1.3 on 51/100/87 against a team that coasted to 67 wins and won the NBA championship.

21 year-old Jordan in his rookie season put 29.3/5.8/8.5/2.8/1.0 on 44/13/83 against the first or second-ranked defense in the league while being guarded primarily by a player who had recently won back-to-back DPoY's.

The ten games you've chosen to tear Jordan down only do the opposite: they actually serve as a teeny tiny piece of the immense body of work supporting his case as Greatest of All-Time. Thanks for calling everyone's attention to those games!

[Just_Bullz]

Seems like this Jordan guy is an overachiever riding on Pippen's coat tail while being a prima-donna along the way.

Definitely not worthy of the praises from Kobe, Bron, Bird, Magic etc.

[Brandon_Roy7]

Jordan is 2 time slam dunk champion. One college championship. USA male athlete 3x 1983 1984 1992. Fun fact. Jordan beat bird, magic and Isiah before he even played an nba game. He went undefeated against them out of 8 games.

[OriginalRed]

This board is becoming almost as bad as InsideHoops with these low IQ posts that reek of insecurity and desperation to make Lebron seem better than Jordan.

[durden_tyler]

Jordan would have won 6 rings without Pippen, assuming you replace him with a servicable player who's fit with the Bulls system.

[ThreeMileAllan]

Ok I was wrong when I said this board has become bad. Its now bad.

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[magicman1978]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

Great. This stuff is all relative though.

Now post the stat lines of the opposing teams 2nd best players in each of those series. Guarantee Pippen dwarfs them in production.

Guarantee LeBron's second best player "dwarfs" his opponents second best players in his championship runs just as often as Pippen did.

This wasn't to prove that Pippen was not a great player, I said he was top 40 and he was the best perimeter defender ever. In championship years, there's only a few examples where the opponents second best player outplayed him (same for Lebron). In non championship years, the second best player outplayed him pretty often. It just goes to show that you can't win championships without help. LeBron could win without the same second best player, just as Jordan could have won without the same second best player. Kyree outplayed the best GS player in 16 - this doesn't mean LeBron needed Kyree to win in 16 - he could have done it with another good player.

[Side beard]

If Pippen is AD and AD is the same thing as Jordan without Pippen, then Jordan is Pippen.