69 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,379 players analyzed]

[70sFan]

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

Luc Longley was definitely more skilled basketball player than them, he's not as athletic though. He was a good shooter and capable passer, he also was decent defensively despite limited quickness.

Ostertag is even less skilled, but he's one of very few starting centers from that era being that bad.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude.

Whiteside isn't mobile, all he can do is jump reasonably high for his size. His feet are extremely slow and he's very low IQ player. Besides, we were talking about skills and Whiteside provides no skill other than being long and jumping high.

Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality.

Yeah, but he's still relevant player on good team - that's my point.

And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

You think that Ostertag didn't have defensive impact? It didn't make him skilled player though...

[70sFan]

What skill does Hassan Whiteside have? Or DeAndre Jordan? Or Jakob Poeltl? Are Steven Adams or Andre Drummond modern players with modern skillset? None of them is particulary talented (and I love Adams).

Drummond/Deandre/Whiteside combine for 7 rebound titles, 1 block title, 3 All Defensive, 4 All NBA, and 3 All Star games. So asking what skill they have...

We're not talking about accolades, we're talking about skills. Mentioning all-nba, all-defensive and all-star appeariances can prove my point if anything - that unskilled players still are relevant and impactful to some degree in modern league.

Let's talk about unreal skills of Whiteside or Drummond though, I'd love you to tell me about them.

[the sea duck]

"Only 38% of NBA players today are considered overweight"

What kind od bull is this ?

BMI isn't accurate. It can flag a person as overweight if they have a lot of muscle. You could read that 38% as the more muscular players (Steven Adams, Zion, etc.) compared to slimmer guys (KD, Ingram, Curry).

"It's a preliminary screening tool. Higher BMI is associated with higher health risk, but it's not a health state," says Dr. Deborah Burnet, a professor of medicine at the University of Chicago who didn't work on the study.

Pro athletes often have BMIs that could get them in trouble with a workplace wellness plan. Their muscle mass can boost them into the obese range, even though they're healthy and physically fit. Based on players' height and weight on the NFL website, there is no Denver Broncos player with a normal BMI, calculated at 18.5 to 24.9.

Excess muscle is still over weight. Your heart really doesn't care if you're fat and muscular, it still has to put in excess work as you get heavier.

True but BMI doesn't account for things like shoulder or hip width, bone density etc. which varies greatly person to person. BMI is bad.

[dhsilv2]

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

Luc Longley was definitely more skilled basketball player than them, he's not as athletic though. He was a good shooter and capable passer, he also was decent defensively despite limited quickness.

Ostertag is even less skilled, but he's one of very few starting centers from that era being that bad.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude.

Whiteside isn't mobile, all he can do is jump reasonably high for his size. His feet are extremely slow and he's very low IQ player. Besides, we were talking about skills and Whiteside provides no skill other than being long and jumping high.

Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality.

Yeah, but he's still relevant player on good team - that's my point.

And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

You think that Ostertag didn't have defensive impact? It didn't make him skilled player though...

It's not just skills but the combination in mobility, athletics, and skill.

Whiteside is a guy who's lead the league in rebounds and blocks. No, he isn't as good as those would indicate but he's much more athletic than some the bigs from the 90's and 00's who got minutes. Poeltl is a top 5 impact defender in some metrics, no Ostertag wasn't at that level. And yeah Longley had some skill but he was insanely slow moving. And again I used two guys who started on finals teams. Two guys who make the league likely today but aren't starters ideally. I didn't even get into the bench bigs who were there for no other reason than being tall.

[dhsilv2]

BMI isn't accurate. It can flag a person as overweight if they have a lot of muscle. You could read that 38% as the more muscular players (Steven Adams, Zion, etc.) compared to slimmer guys (KD, Ingram, Curry).

Excess muscle is still over weight. Your heart really doesn't care if you're fat and muscular, it still has to put in excess work as you get heavier.

True but BMI doesn't account for things like shoulder or hip width, bone density etc. which varies greatly person to person. BMI is bad.

BMI isn't exact, but I'd not call it bad. It's a good general tool for looking at a population more than an individual but 90% of us fall into that BMI matters thing.

[70sFan]

I feel I'm walking into a mine field here but for the fun of it. Where do you see those 3 guys vs Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag, two centers who faced eachother twice in the finals in the 90's and were flat out not good players.

Luc Longley was definitely more skilled basketball player than them, he's not as athletic though. He was a good shooter and capable passer, he also was decent defensively despite limited quickness.

Ostertag is even less skilled, but he's one of very few starting centers from that era being that bad.

Whiteside lead the league in rebounding and is a pretty mobile and athletic dude.

Whiteside isn't mobile, all he can do is jump reasonably high for his size. His feet are extremely slow and he's very low IQ player. Besides, we were talking about skills and Whiteside provides no skill other than being long and jumping high.

Jordan at his peak could jump out of the gym for his side, this year, frankly I'd agree he is barely nba quality.

Yeah, but he's still relevant player on good team - that's my point.

And I just haven't watched the spurs much but Poeltl is having some crazy defensive impact metrics. Longley and Ostertag? They have none of that. They were bad then and they were starters on title contenders for multiple seasons, I'm not even bringing up dudes who were on the bench just to hack shaq a few times a game.

You think that Ostertag didn't have defensive impact? It didn't make him skilled player though...

It's not just skills but the combination in mobility, athletics, and skill.

Whiteside is a guy who's lead the league in rebounds and blocks. No, he isn't as good as those would indicate but he's much more athletic than some the bigs from the 90's and 00's who got minutes. Poeltl is a top 5 impact defender in some metrics, no Ostertag wasn't at that level. And yeah Longley had some skill but he was insanely slow moving. And again I used two guys who started on finals teams. Two guys who make the league likely today but aren't starters ideally. I didn't even get into the bench bigs who were there for no other reason than being tall.

So Whiteside is not mobile or skilled, he's only relatively athletic.

You used two guys who started on finals teams - I can do the same and say that Joel Anthony, Tristan Thompson, JaVale McGee or Zaza Pachulia started on finals teams. Ideally they shouldn't be starters either.

About Ostertag and his defensive impact - here are his defensive on-off and DRAPM:

1997: -6.8, 1.39
1998: -5.5, 0.84
1999: -5.4, 1.58 (24th)
2000: -4.6, 2.48 (9th)
2001: -3.1, 1.39
2002: -0.7, 0.70
2003: -8.4, 3.19 (1st)
2004: -3.1, 0.96

He doesn't look bad via these numbers.

[dhsilv2]

Luc Longley was definitely more skilled basketball player than them, he's not as athletic though. He was a good shooter and capable passer, he also was decent defensively despite limited quickness.

Ostertag is even less skilled, but he's one of very few starting centers from that era being that bad.


Whiteside isn't mobile, all he can do is jump reasonably high for his size. His feet are extremely slow and he's very low IQ player. Besides, we were talking about skills and Whiteside provides no skill other than being long and jumping high.


Yeah, but he's still relevant player on good team - that's my point.



You think that Ostertag didn't have defensive impact? It didn't make him skilled player though...

It's not just skills but the combination in mobility, athletics, and skill.

Whiteside is a guy who's lead the league in rebounds and blocks. No, he isn't as good as those would indicate but he's much more athletic than some the bigs from the 90's and 00's who got minutes. Poeltl is a top 5 impact defender in some metrics, no Ostertag wasn't at that level. And yeah Longley had some skill but he was insanely slow moving. And again I used two guys who started on finals teams. Two guys who make the league likely today but aren't starters ideally. I didn't even get into the bench bigs who were there for no other reason than being tall.

So Whiteside is not mobile or skilled, he's only relatively athletic.

You used two guys who started on finals teams - I can do the same and say that Joel Anthony, Tristan Thompson, JaVale McGee or Zaza Pachulia started on finals teams. Ideally they shouldn't be starters either.

About Ostertag and his defensive impact - here are his defensive on-off and DRAPM:

1997: -6.8, 1.39
1998: -5.5, 0.84
1999: -5.4, 1.58 (24th)
2000: -4.6, 2.48 (9th)
2001: -3.1, 1.39
2002: -0.7, 0.70
2003: -8.4, 3.19 (1st)
2004: -3.1, 0.96

He doesn't look bad via these numbers.

Did I say he was bad? I'm so lost...

[70sFan]

It's not just skills but the combination in mobility, athletics, and skill.

Whiteside is a guy who's lead the league in rebounds and blocks. No, he isn't as good as those would indicate but he's much more athletic than some the bigs from the 90's and 00's who got minutes. Poeltl is a top 5 impact defender in some metrics, no Ostertag wasn't at that level. And yeah Longley had some skill but he was insanely slow moving. And again I used two guys who started on finals teams. Two guys who make the league likely today but aren't starters ideally. I didn't even get into the bench bigs who were there for no other reason than being tall.

So Whiteside is not mobile or skilled, he's only relatively athletic.

You used two guys who started on finals teams - I can do the same and say that Joel Anthony, Tristan Thompson, JaVale McGee or Zaza Pachulia started on finals teams. Ideally they shouldn't be starters either.

About Ostertag and his defensive impact - here are his defensive on-off and DRAPM:

1997: -6.8, 1.39
1998: -5.5, 0.84
1999: -5.4, 1.58 (24th)
2000: -4.6, 2.48 (9th)
2001: -3.1, 1.39
2002: -0.7, 0.70
2003: -8.4, 3.19 (1st)
2004: -3.1, 0.96

He doesn't look bad via these numbers.

Did I say he was bad? I'm so lost...

You said he definitely wasn't as good as Poeltl and Jakob isn't that great. Sample of size is too small to take much from impact metrics from one (not finished yet) season for a player who plays 26 mpg.

[greenandgold]

American wings. Foreign bigs. That’s a nice rule of thumb for building through the draft.

It is interesting that Jokic and Marc Gasol were second round picks. Gobert went 27th in the first round. There are good value plays available with foreign bigs selected later in the draft.

[dhsilv2]

So Whiteside is not mobile or skilled, he's only relatively athletic.

You used two guys who started on finals teams - I can do the same and say that Joel Anthony, Tristan Thompson, JaVale McGee or Zaza Pachulia started on finals teams. Ideally they shouldn't be starters either.

About Ostertag and his defensive impact - here are his defensive on-off and DRAPM:

1997: -6.8, 1.39
1998: -5.5, 0.84
1999: -5.4, 1.58 (24th)
2000: -4.6, 2.48 (9th)
2001: -3.1, 1.39
2002: -0.7, 0.70
2003: -8.4, 3.19 (1st)
2004: -3.1, 0.96

He doesn't look bad via these numbers.

Did I say he was bad? I'm so lost...

You said he definitely wasn't as good as Poeltl and Jakob isn't that great. Sample of size is too small to take much from impact metrics from one (not finished yet) season for a player who plays 26 mpg.

I may have left it out but I'm just extrapolating his play from the numbers, I haven't watched him enough to fairly comment. My point was that the guys you listed have more impressive resumes and metrics at their peaks than these two guys who were key pieces to finals teams. We could look at a guy like say Robert Parish who was obviously a star in his prime but somehow found his way to playing until he was 43 and he was just nearly worthless this last 3 seasons. And there were just more examples of guys who maybe at their peak were nba players who were able to hang on longer. Sure we still have that today, it was just a lot more common in the past.

Is a Gheorghe Muresan a starting center today? Eric Montross? Shawn Bradly? Derrick Alston? Andrew Lang? Matt Geiger (to be fair actually liked his game a lot), Benoit Benjamin, Žan Tabak...

That is a list of guys who got the most minutes or starts at center on teams in the east in just 1996 and I left to Longley. It's not that none of those guys would be able to play, but all of them in the same conference, getting starts?

[magicman1978]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

[dhsilv2]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

Do you really worry about bam guard Zo or Ewing? Two good big men of the time. Cause I sure don't. Mean while would they be able to guard him out to 3 and still add their value?

Yes there is a element of rule changes have shifted players, but just as much a lot of this shift is just smarter basketball. Having 5 guys who can shoot 3's is just optimal it makes everything easier.

[magicman1978]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

Do you really worry about bam guard Zo or Ewing? Two good big men of the time. Cause I sure don't. Mean while would they be able to guard him out to 3 and still add their value?

Yes there is a element of rule changes have shifted players, but just as much a lot of this shift is just smarter basketball. Having 5 guys who can shoot 3's is just optimal it makes everything easier.

Ostertag will likely do a better job on Zo and Ewing than Bam. And I agree that the game is played much smarter now, but that doesn't mean we should go back and assess past players against today's smarter game. For example, centers aren't shooting 3s in the 90s and Bam doesn't even do it today (and he wouldn't be finishing at a 79% rate at the rim in the 90s). Ewing and even Zo had better range tham Bam

[dhsilv2]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

Do you really worry about bam guard Zo or Ewing? Two good big men of the time. Cause I sure don't. Mean while would they be able to guard him out to 3 and still add their value?

Yes there is a element of rule changes have shifted players, but just as much a lot of this shift is just smarter basketball. Having 5 guys who can shoot 3's is just optimal it makes everything easier.

Ostertag will likely do a better job on Zo and Ewing than Bam. And I agree that the game is played much smarter now, but that doesn't mean we should go back and assess past players against today's smarter game. For example, centers aren't shooting 3s in the 90s and Bam doesn't even do it today. Ewing and even Zo had better range tham Bam.

To be really fair, Bam is likely the second big man on most teams in the 90's. And he'd be one hell of a help defender then too.

[magicman1978]

Do you really worry about bam guard Zo or Ewing? Two good big men of the time. Cause I sure don't. Mean while would they be able to guard him out to 3 and still add their value?

Yes there is a element of rule changes have shifted players, but just as much a lot of this shift is just smarter basketball. Having 5 guys who can shoot 3's is just optimal it makes everything easier.

Ostertag will likely do a better job on Zo and Ewing than Bam. And I agree that the game is played much smarter now, but that doesn't mean we should go back and assess past players against today's smarter game. For example, centers aren't shooting 3s in the 90s and Bam doesn't even do it today. Ewing and even Zo had better range tham Bam.

To be really fair, Bam is likely the second big man on most teams in the 90's. And he'd be one hell of a help defender then too.

Bam would be a very good player in the 90s. I don't argue that - and he probably should have gotten more time at C, not just PF, than a guy like Ostertag when you're not playing the better post centers. Just using him as a point to show why a guy like Ostertag had a role in the 90s (and I'm actually glad that rules were changed so we don't have these types of plodding players bogging down the game today)

[dhsilv2]

Ostertag will likely do a better job on Zo and Ewing than Bam. And I agree that the game is played much smarter now, but that doesn't mean we should go back and assess past players against today's smarter game. For example, centers aren't shooting 3s in the 90s and Bam doesn't even do it today. Ewing and even Zo had better range tham Bam.

To be really fair, Bam is likely the second big man on most teams in the 90's. And he'd be one hell of a help defender then too.

Bam would be a very good player in the 90s. I don't argue that - and he probably should have gotten more time at C, not just PF, than a guy like Ostertag when you're not playing the better post centers. Just using him as a point to show why a guy like Ostertag had a role in the 90s (and I'm actually glad that rules were changed so we don't have these types of plodding players bogging down the game today)

Bam might not be ideal given he's actually big enough to body with MOST of the good post guys then even. At ~255 he's got the beef. Al Horford is more the type that would struggle there but excelled today as a big.

[Mazter]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

I believe Jamie Feick played a stretch of 16 minutes and 22 seconds against Shaq once. Jamie had 6 rebounds, 2 assists and only 2 PF's in that stretch. Shaq shot 5-for-12, only 2 lay ups from within 5 feet and 3-for-10 from 5 and beyond, and no FTA's during those minutes. Feick was a 6-9, 255 pound, a 48th pick and averaged 20 minutes in the 201 games he played during 5 season long career. He played 40 minutes in total that night and had 14 rebounds and only 3 fouls.

Btw, Shaq was 9-for-12 (7 in the RA) the rest of the game against Cage/McIlvaine. People want to make Shaq look like an untamable monster, that couldn't be stopped by anyone and was fouling out opponents at will. Of course Adebayo hasn't shown any post defense, but it's not easy to do when opponents hardly play any post oriented offense. My best guess, growing up in the 90's Adebayo would get his fair share of post defense to play, and would do just fine. And if Jamie Feick could have his night againsty Shaq, then Adebayo would definitely stand a chance now and then.

[mccluskey]

for me height is way, way down the list of things I'd worry about when evaluating guards. I think first step quickness, speed, hops, balance and body control, skill level, mental and physical toughness, competitiveness, court vision, awareness and a whole bunch of other stuff is more important than height for backcourt players.

for big men height's more important, but I still think as long as a guy meets or is close to a baseline standard of height for his position, its better to value strength, athleticism, agility, reach, skill level, and a bunch of intangibles more than how tall the dude is.

[magicman1978]

We shouldn't compare past players against the skillsets required to play in today's NBA. For example, as good as Bam Adebayo is - would you rather have him or Ostertag defending Shaq in the late 90s? In today's NBA with post offense nuetered at the expense of a more free flowing perimeter oriented game - yes, but with the 90s rules and how the game was played/coached - Bam would get tossed around and would foul out very quickly. Post defense was a necessary skill at the time and a guy like Osterag was a better post defender than much more athletic guys like Jordan, McGee, and Whiteside (although I will never understand why coaches felt the need to play guys like Ostertag and Longley against each other). It's why a guy like Camby (who despite winning DPOY) wasn't as good as Ostertag defensively and Camby would be a much better fit for today's league.

I believe Jamie Feick played a stretch of 16 minutes and 22 seconds against Shaq once. Jamie had 6 rebounds, 2 assists and only 2 PF's in that stretch. Shaq shot 5-for-12, only 2 lay ups from within 5 feet and 3-for-10 from 5 and beyond, and no FTA's during those minutes. Feick was a 6-9, 255 pound, a 48th pick and averaged 20 minutes in the 201 games he played during 5 season long career. He played 40 minutes in total that night and had 14 rebounds and only 3 fouls.

Btw, Shaq was 9-for-12 (7 in the RA) the rest of the game against Cage/McIlvaine. People want to make Shaq look like an untamable monster, that couldn't be stopped by anyone and was fouling out opponents at will. Of course Adebayo hasn't shown any post defense, but it's not easy to do when opponents hardly play any post oriented offense. My best guess, growing up in the 90's Adebayo would get his fair share of post defense to play, and would do just fine. And if Jamie Feick could have his night againsty Shaq, then Adebayo would definitely stand a chance now and then.

A bit of an exaggeration on my part about Bam, but also not the point I was trying to make - which is a guy like Ostertag had his role at the time (I would argue it should have been a smaller role). And as bad as a player I think McIlvaine was, he was still posting better defensive metrics that much more athletic players

[the sea duck]

Excess muscle is still over weight. Your heart really doesn't care if you're fat and muscular, it still has to put in excess work as you get heavier.

True but BMI doesn't account for things like shoulder or hip width, bone density etc. which varies greatly person to person. BMI is bad.

BMI isn't exact, but I'd not call it bad. It's a good general tool for looking at a population more than an individual but 90% of us fall into that BMI matters thing.

How could you possibly verify this statement?