My brand new top 50 ranking after 2021 Finals results. What do you think?

[dhsilv2]

Cool idea but to me peak matters the most and this list doesn't take that into account enough. It seems to reward high achievement over a long period but not dominant peaks which is where I really sort my rankings.

Hard to have walton top 50 if you're not grossly skewing to peaks. What players don't seem to show peak bias?

Kobe over Bird jumped off the page to me. Look up Kobe's stats, they are good but he never peaked as high as the players around him on the list.

For me a big sign of a great player is leading the league in vorp, bpm, and a win share stat all in the same season. Kobe has never led the league in one of those categories.

Their gap in advanced stats isn't THAT large (kinda the only way to "formula" peak outside of MVP share which I think is the best starting stat). Kobe actually has the higher peak PER at 28 to Bird at 27.8. BPM imo more accurately reflects a gap, 9.4 vs 7.6. Then there's a pretty huge longevity gap here. I think bird ranking where he did shows the formula DOES look at peaks vs the alternative. Kobe's just a guy who's peak maybe isn't as good but 6 more allstar games and nearly 450 more career games is a lot to tip things back his way.

[gipper08]

This list is flaming garbage

[Magic Is Magic]

Curry is ranked 30th. Meanwhile CP3 is 19th and Harden is 26th.

Sorry but this ranking is a total bullsh*t.

No, it isn't. The problem with ranking all time players it that any list that even slightly differs from your own you're going to completely write off and say it's all garbage. You have to look at these things objectively and say okay the formula doesn't completely line up with what I personally believe... but maybe we can make adjustments to it. Or maybe the way I personally feel is subjective and incorrect.

When everything's just based on our own personal biases and emotionally reacting to everything there is no way you will be able to look at someone else's all time list and not react negatively.

Okay. So you think it's acceptable to rank the game changer, Stephen Curry 30th in the all time ranking? Moreover he is ranked lower than CP3 and Harden?

If you don't think that's a fatal mistake then stop playing.

Not to pick on Curry since you brought him up but the categories that likely hurt him most are lack of defensive selections, longevity, and no Finals MVP. Keep in mind his career is far from over whereas CP3 is at the twilight of his and I feel Curry will eventually pass him in time if he keeps having solid seasons which is very likely for a high caliber player like Stephen Curry.

[BostonCouchGM]

these all-time lists should always have the best players at their positions (not centers since their games rely so much on winning the genetic lottery) followed by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on with centers being introduced after the elite all around players that make up the top 10-15

Best at their positions:

PG-Magic, West, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah, Nash, Paul, Kidd
SG-Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Havlicek, Harden
SF-Bird, KD, Kawhi, Dr. J, Baylor, Gervin, Hill
PF-Duncan, Giannis, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale, AD
Point Forward-Lebron, Pippen, Barry, Hill,
Centers-Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing

It ends up something like this:

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. KD
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Wilt
11. Kareem
12. Steph (changed the game)
13. Hakeem
14. Shaq
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. Giannis
18. Kawhi
19. Wade
20. Havlicek
21. Malone
22. Dr. J
23. Stockton
24. Pippen
25. Baylor
26. Cousy
27. Isiah
28. Barry
29. Malone
30. Russell (almost zero offense and very overrated defender. Wilt's numbers got BETTER against Bill)
31. Robinson
32. McHale
33. Paul
34. Gervin
35. Walton
36. Ewing
37. AD
37. Hill
38. Nash
39. Hayes
40. Frazier
41. Wilkins
42. Dirk
43. Harden
44. Drexler
45. Iverson
46. Paul
47. Kidd
48. Mikan
49. Maravich
50. King

[Magic Is Magic]

these all-time lists should always have the best players at their positions (not centers since their games rely so much on winning the genetic lottery) followed by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on with centers being introduced after the elite all around players that make up the top 10-15

Best at their positions:

PG-Magic, West, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah, Nash, Paul, Kidd
SG-Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Havlicek, Harden
SF-Bird, KD, Kawhi, Dr. J, Baylor, Gervin, Hill
PF-Duncan, Giannis, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale, AD
Point Forward-Lebron, Pippen, Barry, Hill,
Centers-Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing

It ends up something like this:

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. KD
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Wilt
11. Kareem
12. Steph (changed the game)
13. Hakeem
14. Shaq
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. Giannis
18. Kawhi
19. Wade
20. Havlicek
21. Malone
22. Dr. J
23. Stockton
24. Pippen
25. Baylor
26. Cousy
27. Isiah
28. Barry
29. Malone
30. Russell (almost zero offense and very overrated defender. Wilt's numbers got BETTER against Bill)
31. Robinson
32. McHale
33. Paul
34. Gervin
35. Walton
36. Ewing
37. AD
37. Hill
38. Nash
39. Hayes
40. Frazier
41. Wilkins
42. Dirk
43. Harden
44. Drexler
45. Iverson
46. Paul
47. Kidd
48. Mikan
49. Maravich
50. King

You have Bill Russell 30th and Kobe 6th. I'll bite my tongue but this list needs work more than any serious list I've ever seen.

[gizardoe]

No mchale in top 50?

[Magic Is Magic]

No mchale in top 50?

He was very close, I want to say 53 or so.

[DonaldSanders]

Hard to have walton top 50 if you're not grossly skewing to peaks. What players don't seem to show peak bias?

Kobe over Bird jumped off the page to me. Look up Kobe's stats, they are good but he never peaked as high as the players around him on the list.

For me a big sign of a great player is leading the league in vorp, bpm, and a win share stat all in the same season. Kobe has never led the league in one of those categories.

Their gap in advanced stats isn't THAT large (kinda the only way to "formula" peak outside of MVP share which I think is the best starting stat). Kobe actually has the higher peak PER at 28 to Bird at 27.8. BPM imo more accurately reflects a gap, 9.4 vs 7.6. Then there's a pretty huge longevity gap here. I think bird ranking where he did shows the formula DOES look at peaks vs the alternative. Kobe's just a guy who's peak maybe isn't as good but 6 more allstar games and nearly 450 more career games is a lot to tip things back his way.

I mean it always gets tough because all of these guys are so damn good... for me the top 10 really needs a high peak. Bird led the league in BPM and VORP *four seasons in a row*. That's some serious dominance in the regular season. Then in the playoffs, 2 out of those 4 years he led in BPM and VORP for 2 titles. Kobe is a great but he has never had a peak that high, I really cannot put him in the top 10 when there have been so many other high peaks from other great players.

Kobe never led the league in an advanced stat except usage during the regular season, that's not a top 10 player to me. In the playoffs he led the league in vorp 1 time, which did result in a title. I think he's top 15 but I can't put him top 10, but I weight peak higher than a lot of people. Kobe's non peak/career resume is obviously amazing.

[WarriorGM]

Kobe over Bird jumped off the page to me. Look up Kobe's stats, they are good but he never peaked as high as the players around him on the list.

For me a big sign of a great player is leading the league in vorp, bpm, and a win share stat all in the same season. Kobe has never led the league in one of those categories.

Their gap in advanced stats isn't THAT large (kinda the only way to "formula" peak outside of MVP share which I think is the best starting stat). Kobe actually has the higher peak PER at 28 to Bird at 27.8. BPM imo more accurately reflects a gap, 9.4 vs 7.6. Then there's a pretty huge longevity gap here. I think bird ranking where he did shows the formula DOES look at peaks vs the alternative. Kobe's just a guy who's peak maybe isn't as good but 6 more allstar games and nearly 450 more career games is a lot to tip things back his way.

I mean it always gets tough because all of these guys are so damn good... for me the top 10 really needs a high peak. Bird led the league in BPM and VORP *four seasons in a row*. That's some serious dominance in the regular season. Then in the playoffs, 2 out of those 4 years he led in BPM and VORP for 2 titles. Kobe is a great but he has never had a peak that high, I really cannot put him in the top 10 when there have been so many other high peaks from other great players.

Kobe never led the league in an advanced stat except usage. That's not a top 10 player. In the playoffs he led the league in vorp 1 time, which did result in a title. I think he's top 15 but I can't put him top 10, but I weight peak higher than a lot of people. Kobe's non peak resume is obvious amazing.

Kobe previously had the highest playoffs raw +/- since it was recorded.

[DonaldSanders]

Their gap in advanced stats isn't THAT large (kinda the only way to "formula" peak outside of MVP share which I think is the best starting stat). Kobe actually has the higher peak PER at 28 to Bird at 27.8. BPM imo more accurately reflects a gap, 9.4 vs 7.6. Then there's a pretty huge longevity gap here. I think bird ranking where he did shows the formula DOES look at peaks vs the alternative. Kobe's just a guy who's peak maybe isn't as good but 6 more allstar games and nearly 450 more career games is a lot to tip things back his way.

I mean it always gets tough because all of these guys are so damn good... for me the top 10 really needs a high peak. Bird led the league in BPM and VORP *four seasons in a row*. That's some serious dominance in the regular season. Then in the playoffs, 2 out of those 4 years he led in BPM and VORP for 2 titles. Kobe is a great but he has never had a peak that high, I really cannot put him in the top 10 when there have been so many other high peaks from other great players.

Kobe never led the league in an advanced stat except usage. That's not a top 10 player. In the playoffs he led the league in vorp 1 time, which did result in a title. I think he's top 15 but I can't put him top 10, but I weight peak higher than a lot of people. Kobe's non peak resume is obvious amazing.

Kobe previously had the highest playoffs raw +/- since it was recorded.

I'd have to look that up, definitely open to more info to change my view.

[warriorschamps]

Curry is ranked 30th. Meanwhile CP3 is 19th and Harden is 26th.

Sorry but this ranking is a total bullsh*t.

You beat me to it. Curry does the most important thing in basketball better than anybody that has ever played the game and he is 30th? Stop it. This alone mean we can't take this list seriously. Here is a hint although I have Steph closer to top 10 all time any list where Steph is below 17th or 18th right now can't be taken seriously. Needless to say when Steph is done he will be comfortably in top 5. Again shooting is the most important skill in basketball and he is by FAR the best ever at it.

Seriously you got career losers like CP3 & Harden ahead of Steph? Just stop it. There is small list(VERY small) of guys I would put ahead of Steph and CP3 & Harden wouldn't be anywhere near it.

You also seem to be a Magic fan yet you got him at 7th? Despite being the best passer ever? It seems you relied too heavily on stats. This is why it's important to use a combination of stats and eye test.

[D.Brasco]

Karl Malone at 13... Well done!

Should technically be at 12...

[WarriorGM]

I mean it always gets tough because all of these guys are so damn good... for me the top 10 really needs a high peak. Bird led the league in BPM and VORP *four seasons in a row*. That's some serious dominance in the regular season. Then in the playoffs, 2 out of those 4 years he led in BPM and VORP for 2 titles. Kobe is a great but he has never had a peak that high, I really cannot put him in the top 10 when there have been so many other high peaks from other great players.

Kobe never led the league in an advanced stat except usage. That's not a top 10 player. In the playoffs he led the league in vorp 1 time, which did result in a title. I think he's top 15 but I can't put him top 10, but I weight peak higher than a lot of people. Kobe's non peak resume is obvious amazing.

Kobe previously had the highest playoffs raw +/- since it was recorded.

I'd have to look that up, definitely open to more info to change my view.

It wasn't for a lot of time since recording of +/- is somewhat recent but I remember it because Curry surpassed it in 2017. Not sure if that distinction still applies even for Curry after the more recent playoffs. The thing with Kobe is his numbers aren't great in comparison to others but they tend to be resilient and hold up. I remember looking to compare KG to Kobe expecting KG to look very good in comparison with all the praise KG gets around here, but in the playoffs I didn't see the advantage.

[WarriorGM]

Not to pick on Curry since you brought him up but the categories that likely hurt him most are lack of defensive selections, longevity, and no Finals MVP. Keep in mind his career is far from over whereas CP3 is at the twilight of his and I feel Curry will eventually pass him in time if he keeps having solid seasons which is very likely for a high caliber player like Stephen Curry.

Already mentioned that defensive selections are an arbitrary measure based on a superficial conception of the interrelation of basketball skills. Longevity means nothing without notable achievement within that time and in other fields may actually be interpreted negatively if not displaying efficiency. You're placing a player who hasn't yet been a champion ahead of one who is a multiple time champion, who has a superior head-to-head record and who is associated with multiple records—and who accomplished the superior record in less time. Utterly ridiculous. FMVPs are based on the opinions of a mere 11 media presenters like Rachel Nichols and if that wasn't enough to completely reduce its value to nothing, they're biased and are subject to their employers who have an agenda. Kareem didn't get one one year because he wasn't able to show up for the award ceremony so the network pushed for Magic to get it. You're basing things on such garbage? Then your list is garbage.

[Amares]

System can be fair, but who cares if formula is wrong from the scratch? You can't mix some selected awards, few poor stats and expect to have credible info about who was better out of two arbitrary players.

[dhsilv2]

Kobe over Bird jumped off the page to me. Look up Kobe's stats, they are good but he never peaked as high as the players around him on the list.

For me a big sign of a great player is leading the league in vorp, bpm, and a win share stat all in the same season. Kobe has never led the league in one of those categories.

Their gap in advanced stats isn't THAT large (kinda the only way to "formula" peak outside of MVP share which I think is the best starting stat). Kobe actually has the higher peak PER at 28 to Bird at 27.8. BPM imo more accurately reflects a gap, 9.4 vs 7.6. Then there's a pretty huge longevity gap here. I think bird ranking where he did shows the formula DOES look at peaks vs the alternative. Kobe's just a guy who's peak maybe isn't as good but 6 more allstar games and nearly 450 more career games is a lot to tip things back his way.

I mean it always gets tough because all of these guys are so damn good... for me the top 10 really needs a high peak. Bird led the league in BPM and VORP *four seasons in a row*. That's some serious dominance in the regular season. Then in the playoffs, 2 out of those 4 years he led in BPM and VORP for 2 titles. Kobe is a great but he has never had a peak that high, I really cannot put him in the top 10 when there have been so many other high peaks from other great players.

Kobe never led the league in an advanced stat except usage during the regular season, that's not a top 10 player to me. In the playoffs he led the league in vorp 1 time, which did result in a title. I think he's top 15 but I can't put him top 10, but I weight peak higher than a lot of people. Kobe's non peak/career resume is obviously amazing.

Bird did lead the league...but the league leaders in these metrics were higher at other times. Effectively, bird was in a league that by the metrics what the top heavy. This is however why I'd use MVP share but...

[pro24]

Hello community,
I use a 25-point ranking system that takes many things into consideration, things like MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes, Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/48 over .250, BPM over 7.0 (these are all looked at for RS and PO), All star selections, and other categories.

MVP:
Derrick Rose and Steve Nash were awarded MVPs when they weren't close to deserving them. I would take this out.

All NBA... All Defensive, Top 3 MVP... :
Anything that anybody voted on I would take out.

FMVP winners:
Would replace this with stats in NBA finals, BPM would be heavily weighted

Rings:
Would put a small weight on this but consider more playoff stats.



Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 Rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/49 over .250, BPM over 7
Why not Top 8 Rebounding or PER over 27, or WS/48 over .22, or BPM over 5? See where I'm going? It doesn't make any sense to place these arbitrary thresholds and turn them into a binary result. It should be more linear and slight exponential rewards can be given as they got very high in a certain category. So for example a BPM of 7 would be more than 1.4x more valuable than of a BPM of 5, because the reward is at least slightly exponential.

[Infinite Llamas]

these all-time lists should always have the best players at their positions (not centers since their games rely so much on winning the genetic lottery) followed by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on with centers being introduced after the elite all around players that make up the top 10-15

Best at their positions:

PG-Magic, West, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah, Nash, Paul, Kidd
SG-Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Havlicek, Harden
SF-Bird, KD, Kawhi, Dr. J, Baylor, Gervin, Hill
PF-Duncan, Giannis, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale, AD
Point Forward-Lebron, Pippen, Barry, Hill,
Centers-Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing

It ends up something like this:

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. KD
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Wilt
11. Kareem
12. Steph (changed the game)
13. Hakeem
14. Shaq
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. Giannis
18. Kawhi
19. Wade
20. Havlicek
21. Malone
22. Dr. J
23. Stockton
24. Pippen
25. Baylor
26. Cousy
27. Isiah
28. Barry
29. Malone
30. Russell (almost zero offense and very overrated defender. Wilt's numbers got BETTER against Bill)
31. Robinson
32. McHale
33. Paul
34. Gervin
35. Walton
36. Ewing
37. AD
37. Hill
38. Nash
39. Hayes
40. Frazier
41. Wilkins
42. Dirk
43. Harden
44. Drexler
45. Iverson
46. Paul
47. Kidd
48. Mikan
49. Maravich
50. King

Man, i always give credit to people for attempting to make these lists...but your list makes the op list look like it was put together by a team of scholars that have an infinite knowledge of the game. The fact that you need to justify the Russell spot means you yourself knew how off it was

[monopoman]

I mean really with how radically the NBA has changed over the past 30 years it's very difficult for any ranking system to properly rank a Curry or Lillard style player.

They would be the biggest anomalies in the world back in the 80s or 90s, and now we see the entire league working to make that the primary way to play. You have teams spamming 3's so much that it just becomes second nature and everyone expects it now.

I think this might be the sport with the biggest fundamental change over a period of time overall.

[Johnny Bball]

these all-time lists should always have the best players at their positions (not centers since their games rely so much on winning the genetic lottery) followed by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on with centers being introduced after the elite all around players that make up the top 10-15

Best at their positions:

PG-Magic, West, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah, Nash, Paul, Kidd
SG-Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Havlicek, Harden
SF-Bird, KD, Kawhi, Dr. J, Baylor, Gervin, Hill
PF-Duncan, Giannis, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale, AD
Point Forward-Lebron, Pippen, Barry, Hill,
Centers-Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing

It ends up something like this:

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. KD
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Wilt
11. Kareem
12. Steph (changed the game)
13. Hakeem
14. Shaq
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. Giannis
18. Kawhi
19. Wade
20. Havlicek
21. Malone
22. Dr. J
23. Stockton
24. Pippen
25. Baylor
26. Cousy
27. Isiah
28. Barry
29. Malone
30. Russell (almost zero offense and very overrated defender. Wilt's numbers got BETTER against Bill)
31. Robinson
32. McHale
33. Paul
34. Gervin
35. Walton
36. Ewing
37. AD
37. Hill
38. Nash
39. Hayes
40. Frazier
41. Wilkins
42. Dirk
43. Harden
44. Drexler
45. Iverson
46. Paul
47. Kidd
48. Mikan
49. Maravich
50. King

You have Bill Russell 30th and Kobe 6th. I'll bite my tongue but this list needs work more than any serious list I've ever seen.

What are you talking about? .You have Steph Curry thirtieth and I could pick any number of players to fill the second part. And completely missing players such as Miller and Drexler among others. and an unwillingness to show how you arrived at any of it beyond subjectively.