Manu Ginobili was Really Amazing in 2005

Point-Forward · Post #41 » by **Point-Forward** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:28 pm

For those of you interested, I just uploaded another big Manu video. This time showcasing his driving and slashing abilities, and taking footage from almost all his Playoff games played from his rookie season until 2014 (which I consider to be the last year of his "prime", although he continued to be a valuable piece until his very retirement). I'll update the OP post also.

Here you have it:

Watch on YouTube

WillyJakkz · Post #42 » by **WillyJakkz** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:38 pm

Great bump!

Unpopular opinion, I used to argue with my older brother/ friends that Manu was better than D Wade. And D Wade is great!

Fight me.

Bornstellar · Post #43 » by **Bornstellar** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:48 pm

Point-Forward wrote:For those of you interested, I just uploaded another big Manu video. This time showcasing his driving and slashing abilities, and taking footage from almost all his Playoff games played from his rookie season until 2014 (which I consider to be the last year of his "prime", although he continued to be a valuable piece until his very retirement). I'll update the OP post also.

Here you have it:

Watch on YouTube

Epic video man

picc · Post #44 » by **picc** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:10 pm

Reggie vs Manu would be an interesting thought experiment for this board, which worships both.

Reggie playing more minutes while Manu of course being much more talented.

I think Manu was amazing but I also do think having Tony Parker to handle much of the ballhandling and distributing responsibilities helped his game. Manu would have been even better if he was a starter and playing starter minutes as the lead ballhandler, but over the course of a 82 game season I don't think he would have been as good AS good as extrapolated stats would suggest.

Still, one of my favorite players during the 00's and his 2008 season might actually be his peak regular season.

Ugly0598 · Post #45 » by **Ugly0598** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:22 pm

Easily the most fun to watch on the Spurs those days.

Biff · Post #46 » by **Biff** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:13 am

As a Suns fan, the only guard I feared more from that era than Manu was Kobe. Manu is probably one of the most underrated guards in NBA history. Clutch AF, great defender, solid playmaker and an absolutely relentless attacker on offense.

Post #47 » by **Duffman100** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:22 am

Yeggo Poleggo wrote:Manu is highly underrated while Duncan is slightly overrated IMO.

The Spurs were such a well oiled machine under one of the GOATs, Gregg Pop.

Tim Duncan overrated?

The whole thing was built around Tim Duncan. He was the center piece, the defensive anchor, the engine of the team. He was the on and off court leader. A top 10 player of all time.

If anyone is overrated in the entire scenario, it's Pop. And I love Pop.

But none of that Spurs run happens at all without Duncan.

Point-Forward · Post #48 » by **Point-Forward** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:25 am

Biff wrote:As a Suns fan, the only guard I feared more from that era than Manu was Kobe. Manu is probably one of the most underrated guards in NBA history. Clutch AF, great defender, solid playmaker and an absolutely relentless attacker on offense.

In the video there's a quote from Raja Bell saying that the player hardest to guard during his career was actually Manu. The only guy he couldn't really figure out. Man, those Suns-Spurs series were epic back in the day. High quality basketball (and no shortage of drama, either).

Point-Forward · Post #49 » by **Point-Forward** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:25 am

Bornstellar wrote:
Point-Forward wrote:For those of you interested, I just uploaded another big Manu video. This time showcasing his driving and slashing abilities, and taking footage from almost all his Playoff games played from his rookie season until 2014 (which I consider to be the last year of his "prime", although he continued to be a valuable piece until his very retirement). I'll update the OP post also.

Here you have it:

Watch on YouTube

Epic video man

Thank you!

Ruma85 · Post #50 » by **Ruma85** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:26 am

Still underrated..

GeorgeSears · Post #51 » by **GeorgeSears** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:31 am

He was even better in 2010.

homecourtloss · Post #52 » by **homecourtloss** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:45 am

Point-Forward wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I remember when the first on/off stats came out, from APM to RAPM, in the mid 2000s or so.
In the first 4-5 years there were always the same 5 guys on op of the ranking: LeBron, Garnett, Dirk, Timmeh and Manu Ginobili.

Can you please share the RAPM data here?

I remember checking it out a long time ago and if I'm not mistaken I can recall Manu being #1 on those lists in years like 2007, but I'm having trouble finding that stuff again. Would be great to have it.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

You can also navigate individual years on the left side.

Bornstellar · Post #53 » by **Bornstellar** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:49 am

GeorgeSears wrote:He was even better in 2010.

2011 imo, that was the first and only year that truly featured Manu as the Spurs go-to #1 option all season basically, starting 79/80 games en route to 61 wins. Shame he broke his elbow in the last (meaningless) game of the RS :nonono:

mastermixer · Post #54 » by **mastermixer** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:40 am

Kobeskillz wrote:Was that the year Duncan was injured? He was a beast. Some people had him over Kobe even. Though he broke down with all that work load and he even mentioned how tough it was which is what separates talents like him from the Kobe’s and Lebrons. The workload ain’t no joke.

Funny. There’s a 10 page thread ripping Gilbert for saying pretty much this.

BoatsNZones · Post #55 » by **BoatsNZones** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:47 am

Kingdibs19 wrote:Lol @ Klay so upset at not being too 75 when guys like Manu, Parker, Tmac and Dwight did not make it. Prime Manu was a beast.

As a Warriors fan since TMC, I could not agree more.

That said, odd to randomly call out Klay here. He's an integral cog in the greatest team through the toughest construct of the NBA. I get why he feels slighted. He's wrong to think it, but I get it.

Manu was a force in his prime and often the most feared player on the court when they were at their apex. I remember seeing the first RAPM metrics and immediately looking for Manu. He was near the tip-top. Thought to myself, "story checks out".

Bologna Smasher · Post #56 » by **Bologna Smasher** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:50 am

One of the biggest "what ifs" of that era is how Ginobili would look as the number one guy on a team. Think he would've been up there with Kobe, at least for a few good years. Always wanted to see the crazy stuff he'd do on a team like the early 2000s Kings.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #57 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:12 am

Something to be considered, Manu was making like 10m per year when his max was like 15-16m. Parker was making somewhat similar money.
That would be like making roughly 20m today, less than what the likes of Brunson or Simons are making.
I think this is a really underrated enabler of the Spurs sustained long term excellence.
I have a feeling that almost every other player that caliber would have prioritized "the bag" and either got a max contract from the Spurs (limiting their ability to fill up the team) or left to have his own team (and max deal).
Moreover, no other player of Manu's caliber would have accepted to come off the bench to balance the rotation.

LAL1947 · Post #58 » by **LAL1947** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:47 am

Manu and Parker could have made multiple champions out of so many players in the 2000s... like KG or Dirk or Amar'e. The amount of dribble penetration, creativity and overall play they offered as a PG+SG combo (while not being defensive liabilities) was hard to beat for most other teams who usually only had a great PG or a great SG, but not both.

Even today, I feel that they don't get enough recognition as the effect of their impact is gifted to Duncan in order to prop up his Top 10 case. I mean, Duncan's All-Time Top 10 case is actually part Duncan, part Parker and part Ginobii. If fans were able to properly separate out Duncan from Parker and Ginobili, then Duncan would be listed outside the Top 10 in the same bracket along with KG and Karl Malone.

I see something similar with Steph Curry's Top 10 case too, which is actually part Curry, part Klay and part Dray (along with other great depth). Part of Klay's and Dray's impact are gifted to Curry, instead of fully separating Curry out from Klay and Dray.

Post #59 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:04 am

Manu is everything you want in a guard. He can guard anyone on the perimeter, he can play on and off the ball, he's an outstanding shooter, ball handler and passer, he can play off another guard, play off a post or rolling big man, or he can be a takeover scorer and isolate for tough buckets.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #60 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:52 am

LAL1947 wrote:Manu and Parker could have made multiple champions out of so many players in the 2000s... like KG or Dirk or Amar'e. The amount of dribble penetration, creativity and overall play they offered as a PG+SG combo (while not being defensive liabilities) was hard to beat for most other teams who usually only had a great PG or a great SG, but not both.

Even today, I feel that they don't get enough recognition as the effect of their impact is gifted to Duncan in order to prop up his Top 10 case. I mean, Duncan's All-Time Top 10 case is actually part Duncan, part Parker and part Ginobii. If fans were able to properly separate out Duncan from Parker and Ginobili, then Duncan would be listed outside the Top 10 in the same bracket along with KG and Karl Malone.

I see something similar with Steph Curry's Top 10 case too, which is actually part Curry, part Klay and part Dray (along with other great depth). Part of Klay's and Dray's impact are gifted to Curry, instead of fully separating Curry out from Klay and Dray.

the issue with this narrative is that Timmeh won two championships before those guys became anything close to that

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