Jokic vs Giannis

[Funcrusher]

It is though.

It's still early but the Nuggets are 2nd in DRTG this year, behind the Warriors. Bucks rank 17th despite having better defensive talent. Giannis is better defensively but the gap has narrowed.

Defensive talent like Pat Connaughton, Grayson Allen, George Hill, Jordan Nwora, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, and Justin Robinson who are in the top 8 for minutes played at the club? No. The defensive gap has not "narrowed" because Jokic isn't anywhere near a DPOY caliber player.

outside of Aaron Gordon though the Nuggets aren't defensively stacked either. They have several net negatives in their starting lineup, and that doesn't even change with Porter or Murray. At least when healthy you guys have Lopez, Midds, and Jrue. Not saying Giannis isn't the better talent defensively but Jokic deserves props on that end thus far this season

[RRyder823]

It’s Giannis and it isn’t even close wtf

RealGM will forever overrate Jokic. “Offensively Jokic is dominant, him easily” lol. You need walls and armies to stop Giannis but Jokic can pass like a PG so he wins. Smh. Let’s pretend they are equal offensively. Jokic can’t guard any skilled big man, and can’t switch on to any wing. Meanwhile Giannis is a DPOY and can switch on anyone. Also he had a ring, I don’t get how this debate is close.

Thank you for actually saying it. I don't think I've ever seen a player that has other teams committing 3-4 players to him every possession have their offensive ability downplayed so much



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[timO]

Great RS players.

But i still take KD for a playoff series.

[Bmaasse]

This is pure racism . What big game has Jokic won ?

Clawing back from being down 3-1 TWICE in the same playoff run? Has any other star ever done that?

For the record, I'm taking the guy whose been there and won it all, but Jokic is a special clutch and winning player. No doubt in my mind he wins at least one chip in his career.

How does Jokic get all the credit for that feat when he wasn't even close to being the leading scorer in either of those series?

[Lexluthor]

Clawing back from being down 3-1 TWICE in the same playoff run? Has any other star ever done that?

For the record, I'm taking the guy whose been there and won it all, but Jokic is a special clutch and winning player. No doubt in my mind he wins at least one chip in his career.

He might win a ring as a role player at the end of his career . But I just don’t see the Nuggets when winning a championship with him being the number one option. To me Nuggets are becoming like the early 2000’s Kings team and the Steve Nash Suns teams

He's already arguably the GOAT offensive big man at age 26. If anything I see it winding up more like a Dirk Mavs situation - Nuggets fail to put quality rosters around him, but through sheer extraordinary skill, Jokic will carry one of the **** rosters to a chip anyways.

Oh please GTFO . He has never dominated the NBA like Shaq did . A prime Shaq is better than Lebron And he is not more Skilled than Hakeem Olajuwon. People overrate Jokic

[Bobbymcgee]

Per Wikipedia:

Career highlights and awards for Giannis (age 26)
NBA champion (2021)
NBA Finals MVP (2021)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2019, 2020)
5× NBA All-Star (2017–2021)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2021)
3× All-NBA First Team (2019–2021)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2017, 2018)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2020)
3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2019–2021)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)
NBA Most Improved Player (2017)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2014)
NBA 75th Anniversary Team

Career highlights and awards for Jokic (age 26)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2021)
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
2× All-NBA First Team (2019, 2021)
All-NBA Second Team (2020)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2016)

Yeah, I'm going with Giannis.

[AleksandarN]

It’s Giannis and it isn’t even close wtf

RealGM will forever overrate Jokic. “Offensively Jokic is dominant, him easily” lol. You need walls and armies to stop Giannis but Jokic can pass like a PG so he wins. Smh. Let’s pretend they are equal offensively. Jokic can’t guard any skilled big man, and can’t switch on to any wing. Meanwhile Giannis is a DPOY and can switch on anyone. Also he had a ring, I don’t get how this debate is close.

What skilled big man can’t jokic guard? Bam? KAT? Who? You said any skilled big man.

[Antinomy]

I always love when defense matters, until suddenly it doesn’t.

Giannis is a complete monster & just won a championship, FMVP, DPOY & 2 MVPs.

It’s not a debate.

[skones]

It's still early but the Nuggets are 2nd in DRTG this year, behind the Warriors. Bucks rank 17th despite having better defensive talent. Giannis is better defensively but the gap has narrowed.

Defensive talent like Pat Connaughton, Grayson Allen, George Hill, Jordan Nwora, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, and Justin Robinson who are in the top 8 for minutes played at the club? No. The defensive gap has not "narrowed" because Jokic isn't anywhere near a DPOY caliber player.

outside of Aaron Gordon though the Nuggets aren't defensively stacked either. They have several net negatives in their starting lineup, and that doesn't even change with Porter or Murray. At least when healthy you guys have Lopez, Midds, and Jrue. Not saying Giannis isn't the better talent defensively but Jokic deserves props on that end thus far this season

That's not the point that was being made. The point that was being made took a small sample size and viewed it without any sort of context.

[LAL1947]

I think Luka and Jokic are both brilliant on offense. But their brilliance will never be acknowledged universally until the two team up together... and stuff the rest of the league like turkeys. Both of their teams have made unfortunate decisions that handicap them ATM... 1) Denver's decisions are unfortunate because of bad luck (Murray and KPJ's injuries). 2) Dallas' decisions are unfortunate because their FO has sucked eggs (just look at their roster 4 years after drafting Luka compared to when they drafted him, if I have to say anything more.. just simply bleh to you).

2023... can't wait until "Lukic" is unleashed.

[LAL1947]

This is pure racism . What big game has Jokic won ?

GTFO of here with this pure BS.

There is a lot of racism on this board . They call Marcus Morris a thug a dirty player . But people are saying that deserves a reward for trying to injure Marcus Morris . That’s Racism . Back to the point .Giannis has lead his team to a Championship . Jokic has not even taken his team to the NBA Finals . But somehow Jokic is better

It wasn't Marcus but Markieff that got involved with Nikola... and you need to get back on your meds.

[mumoy]

I'll take KD over both, easily

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[Infinite Llamas]

I always love when defense matters, until suddenly it doesn’t.

Giannis is a complete monster & just won a championship, FMVP, DPOY & 2 MVPs.

It’s not a debate.

It absolutely is a debate because you can’t just compare accolades. You have to take both players and strip them of the accolades and awards and examine their strengths and weaknesses. Because otherwise, we can just give Giannis players like Rivers and Campazzo and we can give Jokic guys like Holiday, Lopez and Middleton and who do you think wins FMVP then? Because it certainly wouldn’t have been Giannis.

[skones]

I always love when defense matters, until suddenly it doesn’t.

Giannis is a complete monster & just won a championship, FMVP, DPOY & 2 MVPs.

It’s not a debate.

It absolutely is a debate because you can’t just compare accolades. You have to take both players and strip them of the accolades and awards and examine their strengths and weaknesses. Because otherwise, we can just give Giannis players like Rivers and Campazzo and we can give Jokic guys like Holiday, Lopez and Middleton and who do you think wins FMVP then? Because it certainly wouldn’t have been Giannis.

Oh look, Giannis hater slant. That's such a ridiculous way to put it I don't know why you even bother.

[nate33]

I think it’s a great debate. And in my opinion it’s a debate between the two best players in the league currently.
.

Durant would like a word

Durant is not remotely as good defensively as Giannis or as good offensively as Jokic.

Yeah, but he is better offensively than Giannis and better defensively than Jokic.

[Pachinko_]

It's still early but the Nuggets are 2nd in DRTG this year, behind the Warriors. Bucks rank 17th despite having better defensive talent. Giannis is better defensively but the gap has narrowed.

Defensive talent like Pat Connaughton, Grayson Allen, George Hill, Jordan Nwora, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, and Justin Robinson who are in the top 8 for minutes played at the club? No. The defensive gap has not "narrowed" because Jokic isn't anywhere near a DPOY caliber player.

outside of Aaron Gordon though the Nuggets aren't defensively stacked either. They have several net negatives in their starting lineup, and that doesn't even change with Porter or Murray. At least when healthy you guys have Lopez, Midds, and Jrue. Not saying Giannis isn't the better talent defensively but Jokic deserves props on that end thus far this season

Yeah but forget about the teams for a minute, you are comparing two players. Just look at them, if Joker even tried to do what Giannis does on D he would probably pull a muscle in the first try. We are comparing him to the permanent DPOY candidate here, a total freak who switches on everybody and can pull a 5 blocks/5 steals/15 defensive rebounds game out of his pocket at any moment when it's needed.
Nikola is smart and strong, great hands, great instinct for the ball, decent size, aaand that's about where it ends with him, he can't really move like an NBA player. He is a good defender but the bar is too high.

Offense is a different story, the dude has single-handedly reinvented the position.

[brettski]

Jokic. Offensively, it's not really a contest. And defensively, it's not as one-sided as one might think. Nuggets are 2nd in DRTG this year and Jokic has gotten way better on that end.

Last season Bucks were 6th in offensive rating at 117.2, Denver 7th at 117.1. This season Milwaukee is 20th at 105.5 (missing half their top 8) and Denver is 24th at 104.1 (without Murray).

Over the entire season last these are the per 36s:

Points 27.5 vs 30.7
Assists 8.7 vs 6.4
Offensive rebounds 3.0 vs 1.7

So far this season its:

Points 28.8 vs 30.6
Assists 6.5 vs 6.7
Offensive rebounds 3.1 vs 2.2

I'm not sure how you think those two are so far apart on offense they are "not even a contest".

It really isn’t and it’s not a knock on Giannis because Jokic will likely go down as one of the best offensive Bigs of all time. Giannis isn’t the floor spacer that Jokic is, nor can he pass like him or score like him. On offense, Jokic practically has no weaknesses.

So you're going to ignore all those stats, including ORTG while in other posts use DRTG to say defense is close between them. Gotcha. No point discussing further.

[Blonde]

I feel pretty comfortable going with Giannis here, though Jokic is clearly top 4 at worst.

[Pelly24]

I think this is Jokic. Giannis has generally had more issues in the playoffs thus far. I think last year's wins against non-contenders have sort of helped his image a lot. I'll also take the level Jokic is playing at since last year above what Giannis has shown. Jokic is probably one of the three-most unstoppable scorers in the league and is also probably the best passer. He just needs MPJ to be at least fringe all-star level and Jamal Murray to be where he was so he can have a legit shot.

[Peregrine01]

Last season Bucks were 6th in offensive rating at 117.2, Denver 7th at 117.1. This season Milwaukee is 20th at 105.5 (missing half their top 8) and Denver is 24th at 104.1 (without Murray).

Over the entire season last these are the per 36s:

Points 27.5 vs 30.7
Assists 8.7 vs 6.4
Offensive rebounds 3.0 vs 1.7

So far this season its:

Points 28.8 vs 30.6
Assists 6.5 vs 6.7
Offensive rebounds 3.1 vs 2.2

I'm not sure how you think those two are so far apart on offense they are "not even a contest".

It really isn’t and it’s not a knock on Giannis because Jokic will likely go down as one of the best offensive Bigs of all time. Giannis isn’t the floor spacer that Jokic is, nor can he pass like him or score like him. On offense, Jokic practically has no weaknesses.

So you're going to ignore all those stats, including ORTG while in other posts use DRTG to say defense is close between them. Gotcha. No point discussing further.

Giannis might have better raw scoring stats, given his higher usage rate, but he's lower in just about everything else. Impact metrics have painted Jokic as a top 3 offensive player for a few seasons now and Giannis is not on that level as an offensive player.

WRT team ORTG - Nuggets have been a top 5-ish offense ever since Jokic began to be featured as an offensive centerpiece. Bucks have ranked similarly or lower despite having considerably better offensive talent around Giannis