We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden

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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#41 » by Nate the Great » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:08 pm

picc wrote:
SweetTouch wrote:So now he's not worried about meaningless regular season games. It's all about postseason


Yes. Because thats always when he’s made his mark.


I attribute his playoff struggles to two things…

1. Refs have more of a “let the boys play” attitude in the playoffs and don’t call so many minor fouls, so he couldn’t just draw fouls by crashing into defenders.

2. Defense is much more important in the postseason, and he has rarely shown much effort on that side of the ball.

If the rules changes force him to abandon his “jump into the defender and shoot free throws” offense, he may be better in the playoffs. But it probably won’t change his defense, so he’ll never be a great playoff player.

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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#42 » by mpoo_sin » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:32 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I'm a Harden fan and even if I wasn't I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and this is purely me speculating, but I get a substance abuse vibe here


That is one strong accusation you are dropping here. Care to elaborate?
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#43 » by QingJames » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:36 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I'm a Harden fan and even if I wasn't I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and this is purely me speculating, but I get a substance abuse vibe here


Huh, now that's a theory I haven't heard before. What makes you say that?
eyeatoma wrote:You guys still dont' get it. Playoff accomplishment don't matter when you're up for your 1st MVP. When you're up for your 3rd in a row, damn straight it matters, as the only ones who done it are top 15 players of all time who have won rings.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#44 » by og15 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:46 pm

darkse1d wrote:What the hell happened to him? He went from top 10 superstar to Eddy Curry in a span of 3-4 months. We can't use the out of shape/injury excuse anymore cause it's one month into the season. He should have gotten his rhythm back by now.

He used to be so agile despite looking out of shape and had a really good first step. Now he looks so slow. His 3-pt shots are short and if he's not getting to the free throw line, his numbers look ugly.

15 games into the season, he's shooting 43% from the field. And he just dribbles dribbles dribbles till the shot clock gets under 5 and passes it or does a step back 3. We clown on westbrick for his poor shooting, but Harden has been equally worse. And he is playing next to KD, so he's not even getting double teamed or having the defense focus on him. In fact, teams are just ignoring him all together.

He looks like a shell of himself and for a guy that didn't rely on athleticism that much, he looks so slow out there.

This actually can happen to some guys when they reach their 30's and don't come into the season in the best shape. For a lot of guys if it last a whole season, they will bounce back the next season if they are not lazy.

That said, overall movement and quickness wise, I agree, but to the bolded, his shooting has not been bad, certainly not anything like Westbrook when it comes to efficiency.

Westbrook:
42.7% FG / 47.2% 2PT / 29.2% 3PT / 68.5% FT / 46.3% eFG / 49.8% TS

Harden:
42.8% FG / 47.4% 2PT / 38.9% 3PT / 86.2% FT / 53.4% eFG / 60.3% TS


"Harden has been equally worse" doesn't really make sense here unless you just mean FG%, but Harden taking 7.5/13.9 FGA (54%) from 3PT while Westbrook takes 4.3/17.3 FGA (25%) means that directly comparing their FG% doesn't make that much sense anyways. Harden is shooting 10% higher from 3PT range, his highest mark since his 3rd season back when he was a 3rd option, his eFG% is at his career mark, he's >85% from the line, and his TS% is right around his career mark.

His last 5 games:
22.0 ppg / 48.5 FG% / 37.1% 3PT / 84.6% FT / 66. TS%


His actual results are nowhere as bad as your perception. I can get the discussion about him still looking slower, etc, but the results don't support you saying his 3PT's are short and he's shooting equally as bad as Westbrook, or that he's necessarily inefficient in any way. He's been 55% TS or higher in 10/15 games and 50% eFG or higher in 10/15 games. He's had a TS% of 56.8% or higher in 4 of the last 5 games and 5 of the last 6.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#45 » by CobraCommander » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:48 pm

Y’all full on over reacting.

This is a result of Nash, KD and the rules changes.

The players we compare harden to most often is Luka and they roughly doing the same thing this year and no one having a serious conversation about Luka...and honestly playing for Nash (seems like he doesn’t have coaching experience...wait he doesn’t) and playing next to KD has to be an adjustment.

Look for yourself -
http://global.nba.com/players/vs/#!/luka_don/james_harden

Dont turn into Stephen a smith
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#46 » by SerialChiller » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:50 pm

One thing I've always noticed about Harden is he never developed a good floater....in Houston it was always 3s or Layups/FTs. Plus he was always too focused on baiting refs to try floaters. I think it's caught up to him a bit and he needs to add that and some form of midrange scoring to take advantage of the space when he's in the lane but can't get right to the hoop.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#47 » by Galou » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:51 pm

No cop out explanations.
Son is basura
:lol:
F$+*k the Nets.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#48 » by magee » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:58 pm

QingJames wrote:
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I'm a Harden fan and even if I wasn't I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and this is purely me speculating, but I get a substance abuse vibe here


Huh, now that's a theory I haven't heard before. What makes you say that?


If he's out clubbing a lot, alcohol, specifically liquor. It's one thing to smoke weed, because it can be a de-motivator, but liquor is a sneaky snake. I wouldn't be surprised if he lost ten pounds in a month simply by cutting booze out of his diet. It would change his sleep schedule and create a healthier metabolism by not processing empty calories as sugar that booze is.

The body has a harder time breaking it down as we get older, so if he's still partying now like he did when he first got to Houston, it's gonna be tough for him to get in great shape if he's still going out and drinking. Staying up is one thing, but drinking shots at 1am regularly in the club is another.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#49 » by og15 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:02 am

SerialChiller wrote:One thing I've always noticed about Harden is he never developed a good floater....in Houston it was always 3s or Layups/FTs. Plus he was always too focused on baiting refs to try floaters. I think it's caught up to him a bit and he needs to add that and some form of midrange scoring to take advantage of the space when he's in the lane but can't get right to the hoop.

Odd, I remember Harden developing a very effective floater his last 2 or 3 seasons with Houston



Of course he's also a lot skinnier than current version of him, and he was beating his man off the dribble handily
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#50 » by Coxy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:03 am

He looks really out of shape. He needs to go on a diet to reduce the weight to get his bounce and step back.

Or not, because I've hated everything he has done to basketball.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#51 » by SerialChiller » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:05 am

og15 wrote:
SerialChiller wrote:One thing I've always noticed about Harden is he never developed a good floater....in Houston it was always 3s or Layups/FTs. Plus he was always too focused on baiting refs to try floaters. I think it's caught up to him a bit and he needs to add that and some form of midrange scoring to take advantage of the space when he's in the lane but can't get right to the hoop.

Odd, I remember Harden developing a very effective floater his last 2 or 3 seasons with Houston



Weird guess I'm wrong...just in the games I've seen of his it was an observation that he seemed to miss them or not even go for them so I had that perception.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#52 » by og15 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:09 am

SerialChiller wrote:
og15 wrote:
SerialChiller wrote:One thing I've always noticed about Harden is he never developed a good floater....in Houston it was always 3s or Layups/FTs. Plus he was always too focused on baiting refs to try floaters. I think it's caught up to him a bit and he needs to add that and some form of midrange scoring to take advantage of the space when he's in the lane but can't get right to the hoop.

Odd, I remember Harden developing a very effective floater his last 2 or 3 seasons with Houston



Weird guess I'm wrong...just in the games I've seen of his it was an observation that he seemed to miss them or not even go for them so I had that perception.

It might be fat Harden that sucks at floaters :lol:
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#53 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:09 am

We've had this discussion many times over the last 3 weeks.
1. He's out of shape and coming off injuries.
2. He's older and so is losing explosiveness regardless from here on out.
3. He is getting to the line a lot less and defenders have more leeway to engage him off the dribble now.
4. He may not be that into being more of a playmaker as compared to his Houston days.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#54 » by bbalnation » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:19 am

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I'm a Harden fan and even if I wasn't I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and this is purely me speculating, but I get a substance abuse vibe here


What does this mean?

A substance abuse vibe? What the **** are you talking about? What kind of whack ass pure speculation do you think you're contributing here, that you wouldn't wish on anyone, as a James Harden fan :S
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#55 » by DusterBuster » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 am

GusFring wrote:Looks disengaged and miserable when I watch him. The IQ and talent are still there. It's weird how he gains all this weight now when it matters most but in Houston he was always in great shape but it's not like the world is stress free so I feel you james


He got fat his last half-season in Houston.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#56 » by DusterBuster » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:25 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:We've had this discussion many times over the last 3 weeks.
1. He's out of shape and coming off injuries.
2. He's older and so is losing explosiveness regardless from here on out.
3. He is getting to the line a lot less and defenders have more leeway to engage him off the dribble now.
4. He may not be that into being more of a playmaker as compared to his Houston days.


Yep. I also think you need to consider he doesn't have an entire roster built solely around him anymore like he did in Houston. He's being asked to be a complementary player in a roster built for KD. He honestly just reminds me more of a fatter and slower version of his days with KD in OKC.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#57 » by DroseReturnChi » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:26 am

hes fallen off cooked to the point i wouldnt trade simmons. rockets was his prime he wasted there.
hes going to be lethal as a 3rd option but the days where he gives you 30 ppg is over. nets would be lucky if this playoff choker gave them 20 ppg. a younger kyrie is mvp of this team with old grandpa kd and harden heading to retirement home.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#58 » by Shock Defeat » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:26 am

He's playing himself into shape. Saving his tank for the Playoffs.
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#59 » by art_tatum » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:32 am

Ugh 43% is like his avg

He's never been efficient for pure shooting , it's always been raised by the amount of his fts.
He's not getting them consistently now.

I've been saying the NBA is helping manufacture him ever since he went to Houston. Still a great player but boosted by the NBA ref help. Same thing happening with with Trae and Luka. NBAs looking for their future stars
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Re: We need to have a serious discussion about James Harden 

Post#60 » by bbalnation » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:40 am

New rules means a completely new defense, individually and team wise. Hes adjusting to that more than anybody else in the league. We all knew he would have to.

He has a new body. As an observer, imo he decided to let his body go in that Houston ordeal and its harder to get that agility back as you age. He hasn't yet. So, he's both adjusting to an older age and a body that is more likely to break down on him (esp those hammys) which can also be mentally draining.

On the Nets versus Rockets, he has a new role. After having the offense completely revolve around him for almost a decade. Now, the primary objective is to get it to KD, with him as 1B as a playmaker (whether to score or distribute elsewhere).

My opinion about James Harden: he's about as good as his late playoff numbers, where they stop calling the bull ****. So basically, not nearly as good as his MVP and peak years stats say. But not nearly as bad as what the media and fans portray. He is a great **** basketball player who took what the greats before him did of gamifying and hacking the rules/systems and made that a priority in his game, taking it to another level than the others ever did (Kobe, Mike, Gil, Dame, etc.).

Now, his body and time are also a major obstacle, along with this drastic shift in rules (hooray for ball).

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