Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PGs ever" list

[art_tatum]

I'm no NBA historian, but was Oscar Robertson really that good to be #2?

Yes: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

No. Raw stats in that eras inflated. He's playing 45 mins a game in a faster era. Only 1 MVP and 1 title which he got playing next to prime KAJ. That title season he was scoring 19 points in the regular season, far from his raw stats peak.

Oscar is top 5 but him and west overrated in this. And Oscars just overated in general by the public. Westbrook (his prime triple double season) would be getting better raw numbers in that era playing those mins and that pace. And most of Oscars triple double seasons were 40-45 win teams. Doesn't mean as much.

1.magic
2. Curry.

[chicago paxsons]

Curry is fine where he is for now, he can definitely go higher if he keeps playing the way he is for awhile longer. I don't see a problem with thomas where he is and i don't know why he's considered "overrated".

I don't think there's anything really egregious about this list except for frazier being way too low. I'd have frazier leapfrog into the top 10. Aside from that, i think it's a good list. Most everyone else is, at least, around where i'd think they should be.

[Pennebaker]

This poll is not sufficient.

LeBron James is a better point guard than nearly all of these players except for Magic Johnson and maybe Oscar. Arguments can also be made for others but there aren't a lot of players historically that can play point guard better than LeBron James and I would certainly have LeBron in the top 5 over Isiah Thomas.

It's high time that we acknowledged the reality that LeBron James is a top 5 / top 10 player at three positions - PG, SF, PF.

I mean who wouldn't rather have LeBron at PF over Charles Barkley? Everyone would, and Hoopshype ranked Chuck 6th.

LeBron is probably also a top 10 shooting guard. I'd rather have LeBron at SG over Drexler or Gervin or Reggie Miller.

So let's update.

LeBron is a top 5 / top 10 player at four positions - PG, SG, SF and PF.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Ooh boy, and so here is where they turned it into a mess. Some of it was their choices forcing uncommon names on there competing with established and known "PGs". Some of it their weird feel for the modern era. Some of it the bizarre Isaiah fetish that has long been there.

So:

--Still don't like West as a PG, as he was long considered THE SG, then the #2 SG, then the #3 after Kobe passed him in the late 00s.

--Isaiah Thomas over CP3 and Stockton is an obscenity, you would say likely championship bias, except they only choose to have that bias when it suits.

Sticking a former MVP who averaged the first triple double in 40 years at #12 behind Kidd and Payton is pretty random. Even more insulting is sticking some rando modern player right behind him because I guess, he shoots lots of 3s?

Walt Frazier has plenty of reason to complain about that rando as well, as all of a sudden the championship bias is turned off so that Lillard can choke in the playoffs again.

Then we go throw Pete Maravich in as a PG, because hey, why not.

Then we return to apparent championship bias with a replacement level Top 20er in Tony Parker, because I guess sleeping with your teammate's wife is 'cleaner" then the scandals around Chauncey, KJ, and Timmy.

Just to make things insulting we throw on a semi-retired part time loser who thinks the Earth is flat and doesn't have the numbers to sniff the HOF.

Worst of their lists so far.

[art_tatum]

This poll is not sufficient.

LeBron James is a better point guard than nearly all of these players except for Magic Johnson and maybe Oscar. Arguments can also be made for others but there aren't a lot of players historically that can play point guard better than LeBron James and I would certainly have LeBron in the top 5 over Isiah Thomas.

It's high time that we acknowledged the reality that LeBron James is a top 5 / top 10 player at three positions - PG, SF, PF.

I mean who wouldn't rather have LeBron at PF over Charles Barkley? Everyone would, and Hoopshype ranked Chuck 6th.

LeBron is probably also a top 10 shooting guard. I'd rather have LeBron at SG over Drexler or Gervin or Reggie Miller.

So let's update.

LeBron is a top 5 / top 10 player at four positions - PG, SG, SF and PF.

I mean I'd rather have Jordan than any sf or pg,
So i guess let's update

Jordan is the top pg, sg,sf,pf. Position less bball for the win.

[70sFan]

I'm no NBA historian, but was Oscar Robertson really that good to be #2?

Yes: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

No. Raw stats in that eras inflated. He's playing 45 mins a game in a faster era. Only 1 MVP and 1 title which he got playing next to prime KAJ. That title season he was scoring 19 points in the regular season, far from his raw stats peak.

Oscar is top 5 but him and west overrated in this. And Oscars just overated in general by the public. Westbrook (his prime triple double season) would be getting better raw numbers in that era playing those mins and that pace. And most of Oscars triple double seasons were 40-45 win teams. Doesn't mean as much.

1.magic
2. Curry.

People who knows the simple basics about NBA history know that Oscar isn't ranked that high because of his numbers. He's ranked that high because he's one of the best offensive anchors ever and a guy who had no weakness on offensive end.

[70sFan]

By the way, this list is probably the worst so far. Thomas will be overrated forever, so I won't complain but Lillard over Frazier? Seriously? We rank Thomas high because of rings, but we don't care about any team success anymore when we look at far better player than Isiah with the same amount of rings, right?

I was hoping that at least one list will be good enough to exclude Pete Maravich when I saw SG list... but no, he's simply called PG right now cause why not?

The only thing I like about this list is top 4, I have the same order.

[Lalouie]

if curry wasn't the balls out greatest shooter ever would he even be a top15 pg

and lillard and his shooting heroics too, btw

[Time for Change]

Isiah Thomas will forever be a better athlete, better leader, and a more dynamic player than John Stockton.

Most importantly, he's a better winner.

He beat the three best players I've ever seen: Magic, Jordan, and Bird.

What advanced statistic measures winning rings?

Meh, using this logic we can say Tony Parker should be up top, after all he beat LeBron, Shaq, Durant and Kobe and he has more rings.

During Isiah’s prime the Pistons were a 5-8 seed. Once they added Dumars and Rodman in the late 80s they became a force, and Thomas was still the face of the team, but not necessarily their best player.

[JN61]

Top 4 is proper order after that it's questionable. I would not rate Isiah Thomas that high and Payton, Kidd, Cousy over Westbrook is very questionable. Lillard at 13 downright laughable.

[JN61]

I'm no NBA historian, but was Oscar Robertson really that good to be #2?

Easily. He is the best playmaker in the NBA history pre-3 point line. His impact is also so great that he qualifies in Ben Taylor's playmaking list as the only player into advanced statistic top 10 playmakers in NBA history without benefitting of 3 point shooters. List that Curry for example doesn't qualify. Then you look his statistics and awards and he is on next level. Dominated in the league of bigs. He lifted literally bunch of bench warmers into NBA finals and conference finals several times.

[WarriorGM]

Yes: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

No. Raw stats in that eras inflated. He's playing 45 mins a game in a faster era. Only 1 MVP and 1 title which he got playing next to prime KAJ. That title season he was scoring 19 points in the regular season, far from his raw stats peak.

Oscar is top 5 but him and west overrated in this. And Oscars just overated in general by the public. Westbrook (his prime triple double season) would be getting better raw numbers in that era playing those mins and that pace. And most of Oscars triple double seasons were 40-45 win teams. Doesn't mean as much.

1.magic
2. Curry.

People who knows the simple basics about NBA history know that Oscar isn't ranked that high because of his numbers. He's ranked that high because he's one of the best offensive anchors ever and a guy who had no weakness on offensive end.

One of the best doesn't cut it against one who is arguably the best. As always with Robertson praise we get generalities not specifics. Curry's and Oscar's FG% are roughly similar—and then you remember Curry is shooting 3s.

[JN61]

No. Raw stats in that eras inflated. He's playing 45 mins a game in a faster era. Only 1 MVP and 1 title which he got playing next to prime KAJ. That title season he was scoring 19 points in the regular season, far from his raw stats peak.

Oscar is top 5 but him and west overrated in this. And Oscars just overated in general by the public. Westbrook (his prime triple double season) would be getting better raw numbers in that era playing those mins and that pace. And most of Oscars triple double seasons were 40-45 win teams. Doesn't mean as much.

1.magic
2. Curry.

People who knows the simple basics about NBA history know that Oscar isn't ranked that high because of his numbers. He's ranked that high because he's one of the best offensive anchors ever and a guy who had no weakness on offensive end.

One of the best doesn't cut it against one who is arguably the best. As always with Robertson praise we get generalities not specifics. Curry's and Oscar's FG% are roughly similar—and then you remember Curry is shooting 3s.

Different leagues. Robertson's efficiency is in its own league for a non big of his era. Curry while is very high is nothing we haven't seen other players. And this is on the era of pampered superstars. This year his shooting is down significantly due to rule changes which are a bit closer what Robertson went after in terms of officiating.

[WarriorGM]

People who knows the simple basics about NBA history know that Oscar isn't ranked that high because of his numbers. He's ranked that high because he's one of the best offensive anchors ever and a guy who had no weakness on offensive end.

One of the best doesn't cut it against one who is arguably the best. As always with Robertson praise we get generalities not specifics. Curry's and Oscar's FG% are roughly similar—and then you remember Curry is shooting 3s.

Different leagues. Robertson's efficiency is in its own league for a non big of his era. Curry while is very high is nothing we haven't seen other players. And this is on the era of pampered superstars. This year his shooting is down significantly due to rule changes which are a bit closer what Robertson went after in terms of officiating.

Yet again we are being told that up is down and white is black.

Robertson's efficiency is in a league of its own for non-big men? So is Curry's. Indeed Curry has led the league in TS% twice even including big men!

Curry's shooting is down significantly? Uh, no. Curry's not Harden, Lillard or Young. There was a graphic around here that showed very clearly that Curry hasn't been affected that much at all. Curry is probably the high-volume scorer least reliant on free throw attempts in NBA history.

[JN61]

One of the best doesn't cut it against one who is arguably the best. As always with Robertson praise we get generalities not specifics. Curry's and Oscar's FG% are roughly similar—and then you remember Curry is shooting 3s.

Different leagues. Robertson's efficiency is in its own league for a non big of his era. Curry while is very high is nothing we haven't seen other players. And this is on the era of pampered superstars. This year his shooting is down significantly due to rule changes which are a bit closer what Robertson went after in terms of officiating.

Yet again we are being told that up is down and white is black.

Robertson's efficiency is in a league of its own for non-big men? So is Curry's. Indeed Curry has led the league in TS% twice even including big men!

Curry's shooting is down significantly? Uh, no. Curry's not Harden, Lillard or Young. There was a graphic around here that showed very clearly that Curry hasn't been affected that much at all. Curry is probably the high-volume scorer least reliant on free throw attempts in NBA history.

Thing is TS% favours heavily 3 point volume which is not surprising. It's not a good measure to compare it vs players who doesn't shoot 3 point shots. Instead of being ignorant look up Robertson's play and his teammates and success. He had constantly one of the weakest teams in the league in terms of supporting cast. Something Curry haven't had since first few years of his career.

[WarriorGM]

Different leagues. Robertson's efficiency is in its own league for a non big of his era. Curry while is very high is nothing we haven't seen other players. And this is on the era of pampered superstars. This year his shooting is down significantly due to rule changes which are a bit closer what Robertson went after in terms of officiating.

Yet again we are being told that up is down and white is black.

Robertson's efficiency is in a league of its own for non-big men? So is Curry's. Indeed Curry has led the league in TS% twice even including big men!

Curry's shooting is down significantly? Uh, no. Curry's not Harden, Lillard or Young. There was a graphic around here that showed very clearly that Curry hasn't been affected that much at all. Curry is probably the high-volume scorer least reliant on free throw attempts in NBA history.

Thing is TS% favours heavily 3 point volume which is not surprising. It's not a good measure to compare it vs players who doesn't shoot 3 point shots. Instead of being ignorant look up Robertson's play and his teammates and success. He had constantly one of the weakest teams in the league in terms of supporting cast. Something Curry haven't had since first few years of his career.

Yada, yada, yada. Curry was literally on a team that finished last in the league the year before and he led that team to a 54% win record. When Curry was actually given a decent if not great roster he led it to the league's best record and a championship. This year he is leading the Warriors to the best record even though Klay is still not playing. Robertson does not have an argument against Curry.

[70sFan]

No. Raw stats in that eras inflated. He's playing 45 mins a game in a faster era. Only 1 MVP and 1 title which he got playing next to prime KAJ. That title season he was scoring 19 points in the regular season, far from his raw stats peak.

Oscar is top 5 but him and west overrated in this. And Oscars just overated in general by the public. Westbrook (his prime triple double season) would be getting better raw numbers in that era playing those mins and that pace. And most of Oscars triple double seasons were 40-45 win teams. Doesn't mean as much.

1.magic
2. Curry.

People who knows the simple basics about NBA history know that Oscar isn't ranked that high because of his numbers. He's ranked that high because he's one of the best offensive anchors ever and a guy who had no weakness on offensive end.

One of the best doesn't cut it against one who is arguably the best. As always with Robertson praise we get generalities not specifics. Curry's and Oscar's FG% are roughly similar—and then you remember Curry is shooting 3s.

Oscar is also arguably the best. You want to compare efficiency?

Curry career: 115 eFG+, 115 TS+, 2039.7 FG Add, 2405.0 TS Add in 779 games
Oscar Royals career: 112 eFG%, 117 TS+, 1691.7 FG Add, 3244.4 TS Add in 752 games

Oscar and Curry were comparable in terms of efficiency. I know you like scoring efficiency, so you should appreciate Oscar more than you do. I think you clearly misunderstand Oscar's greatness. From many debates we had before, it seems that you see Oscar as some kind of 1960s version of Westbrook, when in reality his on court-impact and production is more comparable to Curry's.

[ropjhk]

Thomas deserves to be ahead of Stockton but I might put him behind Paul on my list. I would put West on the SG list but I see why they put him on the PG list.

[ZombieKilla]

This poll is not sufficient.

LeBron James is a better point guard than nearly all of these players except for Magic Johnson and maybe Oscar. Arguments can also be made for others but there aren't a lot of players historically that can play point guard better than LeBron James and I would certainly have LeBron in the top 5 over Isiah Thomas.

It's high time that we acknowledged the reality that LeBron James is a top 5 / top 10 player at three positions - PG, SF, PF.

I mean who wouldn't rather have LeBron at PF over Charles Barkley? Everyone would, and Hoopshype ranked Chuck 6th.

LeBron is probably also a top 10 shooting guard. I'd rather have LeBron at SG over Drexler or Gervin or Reggie Miller.

So let's update.

LeBron is a top 5 / top 10 player at four positions - PG, SG, SF and PF.

The Rockets won two championships running the offense through Hakeem Olajuwon.
Olajuwon would often switch off onto point guards and steal the ball and score a basket.
Olajuwon is obviously one of the best point guards of all time.
Olajuwon could score against anyone so he was obviously one of the best shooting guards of all time.
Olajuwon could guard anyone and he modeled his moves after watching videos of small forwards, so Olajuwon is obviously one of the best small forwards of all time.
Rebounding? Yeah. Obviously Olajuwon is one of the best power forwards of all time.
Olajuwon is a Top 5/Top 10 player at all 5 positions.

[70sFan]

Also, Jerry West was a PG for the majority of his career. If you want to break it down season-by-season, it looks very clear:

1961 Lakers: Frank Selvy - SG
1962 Lakers: Frank Selvy - SG
1963 Lakers: Dick Barnett - SG
1964 Lakers: Dick Barnett - SG
1965 Lakers: Dick Barnett - SG
1966 Lakers: Walt Hazzard - PG
1967 Lakers: Archie Clark/Walt Hazzard/Gail Goodrich - PGs and SG
1968 Lakers: Archie Clark - combo guard
1969 Lakers: Johnny Egan - PG
1970 Lakers: Dick Garrett - SG
1971 Lakers: Gail Goodrich - SG
1972 Lakers: Gail Goodrich - SG
1973 Lakers: Gail Goodrich - SG

The only time when it could be argued that West wasn't a PG was in a brief 1966-68 period when he played next to Hazzard and Clark. He still possessed the ball significantly more than them.