Athleticism battle: Current Ja Morant vs Prime Derrick Rose

[TK Smart]

D-Rose by a healthy gap to me. Ja has an extra inch or two on his vert, but Rose's balance, power, explosiveness, body contortion, etc, just noticeably better than Ja's.

[NO-KG-AI]

The league is much different today than it was then in terms of spacing and analytics.

Although your point is also irrelevant to the OP anyway, he's just asking about pure athletic ability. I'd take Rose on that overall no question, although I think Ja is a slightly better 2 foot leaper.

The average FG% from 0-3 feet league wide in Rose's MVP was 65%, and this year it's 67.8%. Morant is 5 points above the league average, and Rose is 4 points below in his year. It's a massive difference, Ja is simply a much better finisher at the rim, no matter how many excuses y'all want to make. Free throw rate is down to .239 this year vs .300 in 2011. 23.9% of shots are at 0-3 feet this year vs 27.6% in 2011.

Y'all are acting like 2011 was 1960 or something. The ability to get to and finish at the rim isn't substantially different now vs then, the paradigm had already shifted.

My point isn't irrelevant. Rose's flash has people blinded by how it actually applied to the game of basketball. It really doesn't matter what he could theoretically do in an open gym with no one around. People are literally in here saying he's the superior athlete, ball handler and jump shooter, and yet he can't create scoring opportunities like Ja. Make it make sense.

Unless someone can convince me that the difference in ability is that Ja is much skilled or just a much more intelligent guy, I dunno how you keep sticking your head in the sand about Rose. He just didn't get into the lane or finish there better than Ja, it's all right in front of you.

Edit: Not to say Rose isn't ridiculously explosive either, but these are two similarly skilled guys, but one is finishing a lot better at the rim and yet people are still arguing that the other is better at finishing at the rim

Double edit: in 2010-2011 just on a quick glance, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Terry, Kyle Lowry, JJ Barea, Rajon Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Lou Williams, Darron Collison, Mike Conley, Steph Curry and Tony Parker shot better at the rim than Rose, and Westbrook and Deron Williams shot within 1% less at the rim than Rose. He was nothing special at the rim, and it had nothing to do with the era he played in.

[NZB2323]

Ja Morant had more dunks as a rookie than Rose has ever had in any season in his career, including his MVP year. Morant is 1 dunk from tying Rose's MVP season for dunks(81 games played), and Ja has only played 35 games so far.

He literally has already dunked the ball 20 more times in 165 games than Derrick has in 672.

Morant's FG% at the rim is substantially better than Rose's was at any point in his career, and even as a rookie was better than any Rose put up aside from a few years as a role player.

Rose is for some reason remembered as this dominant force at the rim, and he just never really was.

Rose has this weird cult following even to this day.
It's like people are judging his game from highlights vids on youtube.

It’s not a cult following, it’s 76% of this board.

Rose is tied with Kareem for most points by a rookie in their playoff debut, when Rose was 20, and Rose could run 20 miles/hr while dribbling past opponents during fast breaks.

Morant is a better dunker, but Rose was faster.

[kane0801]

How about prime Westbrook?

[Kingdibs19]

Ja Morant had more dunks as a rookie than Rose has ever had in any season in his career, including his MVP year. Morant is 1 dunk from tying Rose's MVP season for dunks(81 games played), and Ja has only played 35 games so far.

He literally has already dunked the ball 20 more times in 165 games than Derrick has in 672.

Morant's FG% at the rim is substantially better than Rose's was at any point in his career, and even as a rookie was better than any Rose put up aside from a few years as a role player.

Rose is for some reason remembered as this dominant force at the rim, and he just never really was.

Rose has this weird cult following even to this day.
It's like people are judging his game from highlights vids on youtube.

Agreed, especially on this board. A lot of it is because he received that one MVP that he never should have won (Dwight or Lebron should have). Take that away and this weird cult following can’t pretend he was the second coming of MJ until he got injured.

[Lalouie]

i am NOT voting

ja - gale sayers
rose - walter payton

Who would be Barry Sanders?

sayers is the most beautiful runner i've ever seen and ja the athlete is a beautiful thing to behold

sub out walter for barry or whomever if you like, but gale stands alone

[Bobbcats]

The "Rose is better at finishing with contact" take is weird because I distinctly remember that the main complaint all Bulls fans here had with him was he did too much to avoid contact compared to his peers who were getting to the line a lot more by running into people while Rose was contorting and trying to finish everything cleanly (this also is why his shooting percentage in the paint was relatively low as NO-KG-AI pointed out).

[Golden Knight]

How about prime Westbrook?

Most people have Westbrook as either 1 or 1a with Rose

[SeniorWalker]

The league is much different today than it was then in terms of spacing and analytics.

Although your point is also irrelevant to the OP anyway, he's just asking about pure athletic ability. I'd take Rose on that overall no question, although I think Ja is a slightly better 2 foot leaper.

The average FG% from 0-3 feet league wide in Rose's MVP was 65%, and this year it's 67.8%. Morant is 5 points above the league average, and Rose is 4 points below in his year. It's a massive difference, Ja is simply a much better finisher at the rim, no matter how many excuses y'all want to make. Free throw rate is down to .239 this year vs .300 in 2011. 23.9% of shots are at 0-3 feet this year vs 27.6% in 2011.

Y'all are acting like 2011 was 1960 or something. The ability to get to and finish at the rim isn't substantially different now vs then, the paradigm had already shifted.

My point isn't irrelevant. Rose's flash has people blinded by how it actually applied to the game of basketball. It really doesn't matter what he could theoretically do in an open gym with no one around. People are literally in here saying he's the superior athlete, ball handler and jump shooter, and yet he can't create scoring opportunities like Ja. Make it make sense.

Unless someone can convince me that the difference in ability is that Ja is much skilled or just a much more intelligent guy, I dunno how you keep sticking your head in the sand about Rose. He just didn't get into the lane or finish there better than Ja, it's all right in front of you.

Edit: Not to say Rose isn't ridiculously explosive either, but these are two similarly skilled guys, but one is finishing a lot better at the rim and yet people are still arguing that the other is better at finishing at the rim

Double edit: in 2010-2011 just on a quick glance, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Terry, Kyle Lowry, JJ Barea, Rajon Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Lou Williams, Darron Collison, Mike Conley, Steph Curry and Tony Parker shot better at the rim than Rose, and Westbrook and Deron Williams shot within 1% less at the rim than Rose. He was nothing special at the rim, and it had nothing to do with the era he played in.

Once again youre sidestepping the point.

This thread is not about who is a better finisher. Its strictly raw athletic ability. You acknowledged that and then went on to talk about why it didn't matter because conversion rate. You can start another conversation if you want to talk about that so bad, I guess.

Edit: you're also completely ignoring who rose played with. His roster was filled with non-shooters, and his coach is known for being a fairly mediocre offensive coach at best. I would love to have seen Rose play on a roster that was actually built to support him offensively, in today's league. Rose's athleticism was not some myth, there's a reason people go on about him so as a "what if" story. Probably the most athletic point guard of all time, to be quite honest.

[Sixersftw]

Rose no contest. That isn't disrespect to Ja.

[liquidswords]

Gotta have prime Westbrook in this conversation

[jokeboy86]

Rose.

I remember watching Rose in high school and my jaw dropped watching his combination of speed and leaping ability. In high school. Wall left me with the same impression when I first saw him in high school but didn't maintain it like Rose did in the pros.

Why do you think that Wall couldn't maintain it like Rose? Was he actually not as athletic as he seemed on your first watch?

Idk but in high school and Kentucky he just seemed much more explosive. Up until the first injury Rose seemed just as athletic and fast as he was in high school/Memphis. Wall also struck me as the type that never really took dieting/off-season work seriously and that he could just play his way into shape during the season.

[NO-KG-AI]

The league is much different today than it was then in terms of spacing and analytics.

Although your point is also irrelevant to the OP anyway, he's just asking about pure athletic ability. I'd take Rose on that overall no question, although I think Ja is a slightly better 2 foot leaper.

The average FG% from 0-3 feet league wide in Rose's MVP was 65%, and this year it's 67.8%. Morant is 5 points above the league average, and Rose is 4 points below in his year. It's a massive difference, Ja is simply a much better finisher at the rim, no matter how many excuses y'all want to make. Free throw rate is down to .239 this year vs .300 in 2011. 23.9% of shots are at 0-3 feet this year vs 27.6% in 2011.

Y'all are acting like 2011 was 1960 or something. The ability to get to and finish at the rim isn't substantially different now vs then, the paradigm had already shifted.

My point isn't irrelevant. Rose's flash has people blinded by how it actually applied to the game of basketball. It really doesn't matter what he could theoretically do in an open gym with no one around. People are literally in here saying he's the superior athlete, ball handler and jump shooter, and yet he can't create scoring opportunities like Ja. Make it make sense.

Unless someone can convince me that the difference in ability is that Ja is much skilled or just a much more intelligent guy, I dunno how you keep sticking your head in the sand about Rose. He just didn't get into the lane or finish there better than Ja, it's all right in front of you.

Edit: Not to say Rose isn't ridiculously explosive either, but these are two similarly skilled guys, but one is finishing a lot better at the rim and yet people are still arguing that the other is better at finishing at the rim

Double edit: in 2010-2011 just on a quick glance, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Terry, Kyle Lowry, JJ Barea, Rajon Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Lou Williams, Darron Collison, Mike Conley, Steph Curry and Tony Parker shot better at the rim than Rose, and Westbrook and Deron Williams shot within 1% less at the rim than Rose. He was nothing special at the rim, and it had nothing to do with the era he played in.

Once again youre sidestepping the point.

This thread is not about who is a better finisher. Its strictly raw athletic ability. You acknowledged that and then went on to talk about why it didn't matter because conversion rate. You can start another conversation if you want to talk about that so bad, I guess.

Edit: you're also completely ignoring who rose played with. His roster was filled with non-shooters, and his coach is known for being a fairly mediocre offensive coach at best. I would love to have seen Rose play on a roster that was actually built to support him offensively, in today's league. Rose's athleticism was not some myth, there's a reason people go on about him so as a "what if" story. Probably the most athletic point guard of all time, to be quite honest.

People always overplay what ifs for guys that got hurt or otherwise had a shortened career. Go see the what ifs on literally any really good player that got hurt. His profile goes way up. I don't care about nostalgia and Derrick Rose's fans feelings.

Anyway, I'm ignoring who he played with, because I just named basically every relevant PG that played in the same year as him, and he didn't stand out at all at the rim compared to his contemporaries, he was extremely average. Rose had far better spacing and teammates than a lot of guys who played in a much more cluttered league in the mid 2000's, and they still were able to create good looks and convert them at a higher rate.

And you are sidestepping the point. If Rose was the most athletic PG of all time, he was massively underwhelming, because it wasn't showing itself on the court in any measurable way. He wasn't an outlier at the rim, rebounding, blocking shots/creating turnovers, being able to create for teammates or create high quality looks for himself.

He was extremely fast, and a great leaper. But go look at every generational athlete in NBA history, and you'll see the physical domination show up in some way in his stat sheet. Can you name another contender for "best athlete at his position" who was a below league average finisher and extremely mediocre for his position finisher in his prime?

There are plenty of ways for dominant athleticism to manifest on the basketball court. Creating and finishing the easiest looks possible is just one of them, but probably the most important one. You can use that dominant athleticism to snag rebounds no one else can, or have the juice to chase them all game. You can use that athleticism to get to the line, or create so many opportunities and literally wear guys down with massive volume like someone like James Harden. You can use it defensively to lock guys down, or block a ton of shots, or jump passing lanes in ways lesser athletes can't. You can use the pure burst to draw so many doubles and triples that you can create more shots for your teammates than anyone else in the league... or some combination of all these things like most of the transcendent athletes did.

My contention is that Rose was a fantastic athlete who was incredibly aesthetically pleasing, an underrated midrange shooter, and probably underrated as a decision maker too, not a pure floor general or super vision guy, but heady enough..... but just overrated as an athlete, and my argument is that it never manifested itself in a way that other guys who get labeled "greatest athletes ever" has.
Now go ahead and blame his teammates or use the "I saw it, so it was just true" as if eye balls aren't biased as hell.

[SeniorWalker]

The average FG% from 0-3 feet league wide in Rose's MVP was 65%, and this year it's 67.8%. Morant is 5 points above the league average, and Rose is 4 points below in his year. It's a massive difference, Ja is simply a much better finisher at the rim, no matter how many excuses y'all want to make. Free throw rate is down to .239 this year vs .300 in 2011. 23.9% of shots are at 0-3 feet this year vs 27.6% in 2011.

Y'all are acting like 2011 was 1960 or something. The ability to get to and finish at the rim isn't substantially different now vs then, the paradigm had already shifted.

My point isn't irrelevant. Rose's flash has people blinded by how it actually applied to the game of basketball. It really doesn't matter what he could theoretically do in an open gym with no one around. People are literally in here saying he's the superior athlete, ball handler and jump shooter, and yet he can't create scoring opportunities like Ja. Make it make sense.

Unless someone can convince me that the difference in ability is that Ja is much skilled or just a much more intelligent guy, I dunno how you keep sticking your head in the sand about Rose. He just didn't get into the lane or finish there better than Ja, it's all right in front of you.

Edit: Not to say Rose isn't ridiculously explosive either, but these are two similarly skilled guys, but one is finishing a lot better at the rim and yet people are still arguing that the other is better at finishing at the rim

Double edit: in 2010-2011 just on a quick glance, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Terry, Kyle Lowry, JJ Barea, Rajon Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Lou Williams, Darron Collison, Mike Conley, Steph Curry and Tony Parker shot better at the rim than Rose, and Westbrook and Deron Williams shot within 1% less at the rim than Rose. He was nothing special at the rim, and it had nothing to do with the era he played in.

Once again youre sidestepping the point.

This thread is not about who is a better finisher. Its strictly raw athletic ability. You acknowledged that and then went on to talk about why it didn't matter because conversion rate. You can start another conversation if you want to talk about that so bad, I guess.

Edit: you're also completely ignoring who rose played with. His roster was filled with non-shooters, and his coach is known for being a fairly mediocre offensive coach at best. I would love to have seen Rose play on a roster that was actually built to support him offensively, in today's league. Rose's athleticism was not some myth, there's a reason people go on about him so as a "what if" story. Probably the most athletic point guard of all time, to be quite honest.

People always overplay what ifs for guys that got hurt or otherwise had a shortened career. Go see the what ifs on literally any really good player that got hurt. His profile goes way up. I don't care about nostalgia and Derrick Rose's fans feelings.

Anyway, I'm ignoring who he played with, because I just named basically every relevant PG that played in the same year as him, and he didn't stand out at all at the rim compared to his contemporaries, he was extremely average. Rose had far better spacing and teammates than a lot of guys who played in a much more cluttered league in the mid 2000's, and they still were able to create good looks and convert them at a higher rate.

And you are sidestepping the point. If Rose was the most athletic PG of all time, he was massively underwhelming, because it wasn't showing itself on the court in any measurable way. He wasn't an outlier at the rim, rebounding, blocking shots/creating turnovers, being able to create for teammates or create high quality looks for himself.

He was extremely fast, and a great leaper. But go look at every generational athlete in NBA history, and you'll see the physical domination show up in some way in his stat sheet. Can you name another contender for "best athlete at his position" who was a below league average finisher and extremely mediocre for his position finisher in his prime?

There are plenty of ways for dominant athleticism to manifest on the basketball court. Creating and finishing the easiest looks possible is just one of them, but probably the most important one. You can use that dominant athleticism to snag rebounds no one else can, or have the juice to chase them all game. You can use that athleticism to get to the line, or create so many opportunities and literally wear guys down with massive volume like someone like James Harden. You can use it defensively to lock guys down, or block a ton of shots, or jump passing lanes in ways lesser athletes can't. You can use the pure burst to draw so many doubles and triples that you can create more shots for your teammates than anyone else in the league... or some combination of all these things like most of the transcendent athletes did.

My contention is that Rose was a fantastic athlete who was incredibly aesthetically pleasing, an underrated midrange shooter, and probably underrated as a decision maker too, not a pure floor general or super vision guy, but heady enough..... but just overrated as an athlete, and my argument is that it never manifested itself in a way that other guys who get labeled "greatest athletes ever" has.
Now go ahead and blame his teammates or use the "I saw it, so it was just true" as if eye balls aren't biased as hell.

Your criticism and comments on Rose were fair. I just thought for the sake of argument, we're just talking about physical stats, nothing beyond that. Its what the thread was about.

I don't agree with you that Rose was a lesser finisher than his peers (maybe by the percentages it could be true), and I watched basically every bulls game in that time period (and prior to rose) and understand the dynamics of that team pretty well, and you're understating the conditions quite a bit. Yes he had flashy athleticism but the guy faced enormous defensive pressure (doubles and triple teams every single night) with no shooters and slower players clogging the paint. He dragged those mediocre offensive teams to 60+ win relevance in the 1 and 1/2 years he was a top 5-10 player, and the evidence is that when he wasn't there the bulls never won more than 44 games (iirc). Its already been stated though, so agree to disagree. Fine with me.

I have no problem with people thinking Ja is superior, Ja has a more balanced game than Rose did because he can shoot from outside and because he's carrying less weight he's likely to remain healthier for much longer. I don't think he's as quick as Rose but he's a special talent too.

[Baronious]

Prime Rose and Westbrook are better athletes. Ja jumps higher than them off two. That's about it. He is also waaay lighter than the two. That's another thing to consider.

I feel like people who say JA have never seen prime Rose and Westbrook play..

[og15]

I'll just say this... I would've loved to see Rose in a offense that didn't feature bigs who couldn't shoot threes. I believe he was heading towards an efficient 30/10 season. That's why I'll say Rose.

But Ja is incredible. Comparing players from 10 years ago is impossible. With the 3 ball evolution.

Certainly would have been interesting, but his healthy years were from 08-09 to half of 11-12, most teams had bigs who couldn't shoot three's. The Clippers with CP had Griffin who in the first two years wasn't even respected from mid-range and DJ who couldn't shoot at all. The had Matt Barnes at the 3 who teams would be content playing off in the corner until he hit like 2-3 3PT shots in the game.

I don't see why comparing players from 10 years ago is impossible though, it's fairly easy to adjust for the changes, we're not comparing Wilt to Embiid here or something. The difficulty for comparing Rose is that he got multiple injuries and couldn't continue to progress as a player. In terms of comparing athleticism though, the 3 ball revolution doesn't change anything in regards to that.

[SUPERVILLAIN]

Come on now.

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[Blazing_royale]

JA isn't in his prime yet so i'm giving it to Rose at the moment.

[Cavsfansince84]

I like the way that Ja will dunk on someone without acting like he's all mad or something at the guy he dunked on afterward. He might be my favorite player in the league right now.

[Lockdown504090]

Come on now.

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?s=21

still derrick. change of pace direction and acceleration is unrivaled. stronger up top as well.