Does Embiid even have the defense argument over Jokic now?

[kuclas]

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

I don't think he's DPOY-Caliber, but Aaron Gordon might be more essential to the Nuggets defense than Thybulle is to the Sixers. Nuggs also have guys like Barton and Morris, and JayMychal and Jeff Green arent' great but generally solid wings defensively. I dunno, not saying Embiid is better defensively but they both have a fair amount of help. The funny thing is though that Embiid and Joker both essentially play the same role defensively - they're both drop bigs pretty much exclusively. I think Embiid is a better rim protector but Jokic is more consistent and smarter at helping/backline rotations

Gordon is a top 7-8 power forward defender in this league. Maybe closer to top 5 defender.

Just like Jokic when he had Paul Milsap before he became washed.

Embiid slacks off on defense a lot this season. But when he tries. It’s amazing.

He’s just pacing himself. We will see in the playoffs

[Cubbies2120]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

I'm not sure if it's a coincidence that the one year that All-D Ben Simmons sat out the playoffs, they were -53 (110 def rating).

Embiid has had all-defensive player wings for the last 3 years, and the one year that one sits out, he posts his career worst playoff defensive rating and +-

Do you think it would be advantageous to Jokic to have all-defensive team perimeter defenders when facing elite guards/wings (Lillard, Booker, CP3,Mitchell,Kawhi,PG13)?

We saw what happened to Embiid's defensive rating and his +- the one year he didn't have one...it went into the toilet.

[Funcrusher]

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

I don't think he's DPOY-Caliber, but Aaron Gordon might be more essential to the Nuggets defense than Thybulle is to the Sixers. Nuggs also have guys like Barton and Morris, and JayMychal and Jeff Green arent' great but generally solid wings defensively. I dunno, not saying Embiid is better defensively but they both have a fair amount of help. The funny thing is though that Embiid and Joker both essentially play the same role defensively - they're both drop bigs pretty much exclusively. I think Embiid is a better rim protector but Jokic is more consistent and smarter at helping/backline rotations

Gordon is a top 7-8 power forward defender in this league. Maybe closer to top 5 defender.

Just like Jokic when he had Paul Milsap before he became washed.

Embiid slacks off on defense a lot this season. But when he tries. It’s amazing.

He’s just pacing himself. We will see in the playoffs

I'm not hating on Embiid, and I agree with most people in this thread that a determined Embiid on that end is another rung up from joker. But i think if it's just for this season this is a reasonable debate

[eyeatoma]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

I'm not sure if it's a coincidence that the one year that All-D Ben Simmons sat out the playoffs, they were -53 (110 def rating).

Embiid has had all-defensive player wings for the last 3 years, and the one year that one sits out, he posts his career worst playoff defensive rating and +-

Do you think it would be advantageous to Jokic to have all-defensive team perimeter defenders when facing elite guards/wings (Lillard, Booker, CP3,Mitchell,Kawhi,PG13)?

We saw what happened to Embiid's defensive rating and his +- the one year he didn't have one...it went into the toilet.

Embiid makes any team a top 10 defense by himself. He can have the absolute **** players, and they will still be an above average defensive team. Yes, obviously there is a correlation. You have more better defenders, and the overall defense will be better. It's not rocket science lol, you're not sharing something profound, what you just said is obvious.

[GeorgeMarcus]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

You ain't said nuffin when I confronted you with the truth about Embiid playoff data a week or 2 ago, but you're steady trying to breathe life into that narrative. He was pretty much the only one who stepped up for us last night too with 27 and 12

He was a -30 last night fam... I'll dig up your playoff post though. I 'ppreciate someone who puts thought into their arguments.

And I appreciate someone who appreciates thoughtful arguments, so it looks like we share mutual admiration

Yeah I'd say that -30 is just indicative of the team's play as a whole. It would be different if he was -30 and the next worse was -16 or something

[Statlanta]

The stats don't cover mobility on defensive rotations and defensive reputation(more guys probably shy away from Embiid) but it does cover Jokic being a better rebounder and a better ball-hawk.

Jokic definitely has a defensive argument considering he's the guy counted on for contested rebounds and paint stops.

[Peregrine01]

The biggest argument in favor of Embiid over Jokic around these circles has traditionally been about defense. But after watching the game last night where the Nets just torched Philly, I was wondering if that's still the case so I dug up some numbers from NBA WOWY.

Philly is posting the exact same DRTG as the Nuggets while the Nuggets are posting a better DRTG when Jokic is on the floor compared to Philly when Embiid is on. Moreover, the Nuggets are worse on defense when Jokic is off compared to Philly when Embiid's off:

Nuggets DRTG: 110
Philly DRTG: 110

Nuggets DRTG when Jokic on: 108
Nuggets DRTG when Jokic off: 112

Philly DRTG when Embiid on: 109
Philly DRTG when Embiid off: 111

I also checked BBall Index's LEBRON all-in-one stat and here's there D-Lebron:

Jokic: 2.11
Embiid: 1.95

(For reference, Gobert's at 3.25)

So is this argument even all that clear cut anymore? If anything, numbers argue in favor of Jokic being better on defense.

Jokic has definitely been better than Embiid defensively this year but don't use Defensive Rating to make that point. Defensive rating is in the context of the team and not an individual stat.

Let's keep that in mind.

Agreed. But Jokic is not exactly playing with a bunch of dudes known for their defense. Embiid has Thybulle who will end up in DPOY conversations every season. In any case, Nuggets DRTG falls off more when Jokic goes off than does Philly's when Embiid goes off.

[Richard Miller]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

Yea if you don't take into account some pretty mediocre teams 76ers have faced in R1 so far. The "worst" team Jokic faced in the playoffs so far has been the 48-win Spurs in 2019.

[Jables]

People are straight up delusional if they think Jokic is only a bit worse on defense than Embiid. Thybulle isn't carrying Embiid lmao.

[_qubik]

Jokic is better, but I prefer Embiid, he is the best defender and the easier fit. Jokic will probably never win a title in Denver despite the insane stats and highlights

[eyeatoma]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

Yea if you don't take into account some pretty mediocre teams 76ers have faced in R1 so far. The "worst" team Jokic faced in the playoffs so far has been the 48-win Spurs in 2019.

LMAO, mediocre teams?

Embiid was a +90 in the raptors series where Kawhi hit the shot. His defense was otherworldly in that series.

[Perseus1966]

Why we compare Jokic with Jarjar?

[GSP]

Embiid is the better defender still but hes overrated on defense.

Immense rim protector and shotblocker but weak in alot of areas. Poor pickandroll coverage, not great switching out or contesting jumpshots. Ppl talk about his defense like hes Pat Ewing or Hakeem and hes nowhere close to them. His defense is much more to that of a prime Marcus Camby who was a good defender but not elite even tho he won Dpoy undeservingly.

We exposed Embiids defense in playoffs when he didnt have Ben swept him with no resistance almost all games blowouts. Ppl point to his on/off playoff numbers in 19 but he had 2 of the best wing defenders in Ben and Jimmy with him and no big man backup which inflated his numbers.

[eyeatoma]

Embiid is the better defender still but hes overrated on defense.

Immense rim protector and shotblocker but weak in alot of areas. Poor pickandroll coverage, not great switching out or contesting jumpshots. Ppl talk about his defense like hes Pat Ewing or Hakeem and hes nowhere close to them. His defense is much more to that of a prime Marcus Camby who was a good defender but not elite even tho he won Dpoy undeservingly.

We exposed Embiids defense in playoffs when he didnt have Ben swept him with no resistance almost all games blowouts. Ppl point to his on/off playoff numbers in 19 but he had 2 of the best wing defenders in Ben and Jimmy with him and no big man backup which inflated his numbers.

Lol, prime Marcus Camby was DPOY in 06-07.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[Sleep]

It's definitely not an argument because it's not close. Embiid is still a far better defender than Jokic.

[GSP]

Embiid is the better defender still but hes overrated on defense.

Immense rim protector and shotblocker but weak in alot of areas. Poor pickandroll coverage, not great switching out or contesting jumpshots. Ppl talk about his defense like hes Pat Ewing or Hakeem and hes nowhere close to them. His defense is much more to that of a prime Marcus Camby who was a good defender but not elite even tho he won Dpoy undeservingly.

We exposed Embiids defense in playoffs when he didnt have Ben swept him with no resistance almost all games blowouts. Ppl point to his on/off playoff numbers in 19 but he had 2 of the best wing defenders in Ben and Jimmy with him and no big man backup which inflated his numbers.

Lol, prime Marcus Camby was DPOY on 06-07.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

I mentioned that...... It's often cited as the worst Dpoy pick of alltime. He wasn't even the best defender on his team over Nene and Timmy D got robbed horribly

[The Rebel]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Nuggets bench is better than some of Philly's starters.... The Sixers play Korkmaz, Niang and Shake over 20 mins a game. They are worse than OKC 3-15.

Prior to the trade deadline the Nuggets had the 2nd worst bench statistically in the league, the worst was the Magic, so you can throw out names that you rank badly but it doesn't change the facts.

[The Rebel]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

So your argument against Jokic being better this year is that Embiid was better over the last few years? Guess that means you have no argument for this year?

[The Rebel]

Embiid is the better defender still but hes overrated on defense.

Immense rim protector and shotblocker but weak in alot of areas. Poor pickandroll coverage, not great switching out or contesting jumpshots. Ppl talk about his defense like hes Pat Ewing or Hakeem and hes nowhere close to them. His defense is much more to that of a prime Marcus Camby who was a good defender but not elite even tho he won Dpoy undeservingly.

We exposed Embiids defense in playoffs when he didnt have Ben swept him with no resistance almost all games blowouts. Ppl point to his on/off playoff numbers in 19 but he had 2 of the best wing defenders in Ben and Jimmy with him and no big man backup which inflated his numbers.

Lol, prime Marcus Camby was DPOY on 06-07.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

I mentioned that...... It's often cited as the worst Dpoy pick of alltime. He wasn't even the best defender on his team over Nene and Timmy D got robbed horribly

If someone had the time they could literally go look at threads on realgm from the year Camby won, even Nuggets fans were disgusted with him winning it.

There is a reason the Nuggets gave him away that summer and got better on defense.

[eyeatoma]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

So your argument against Jokic being better this year is that Embiid was better over the last few years? Guess that means you have no argument for this year?

Nope my argument is that Embiid plays his best defense in the playoffs, where Jokic is incomparable.