Jokic is 3rd this season in wins among MVP candidates

[Raps in 4]

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

Of course the bubble run didn't count. How convenient.

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

He had a better season than Embiid according to advanced stats.

He had a better season than Embiid according to counting stats.

He won more games than Embiid this season with less help.

He has the same number of career playoff series wins as Embiid.

He's gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid.

That's a lot of arguments.

Meanwhile, the Embiid crowd: "Jokic's achievements don't count because I said so"

[Dutchball97]

I mean do we need to state the obvious? He plays on both ends unlike Jokic, first scoring leader for a C since Shaq, and he got out the first round.

A player can play both ends and still be less productive than a player who only plays one end. Generational offensive talents like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KD, etc. can make up for their defensive deficiencies with their historic offensive production.

And Jokic also got out of the first round when he had a healthy team. In fact, he got to the conference finals, something Embiid has never done.

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

You're confusing theory and reality. Embiid giving 100% effort on defense would definitely have a big advantage on that front and we're definitely seeing that impact in the play-offs so far but with the offensive load Embiid had to carry before Harden came to town he just didn't have the luxury of going all out on defense. Just about all metrics suggest that Embiid with this partial defensive effort wasn't much more impactful on defense, if at all, than Jokic this year.

Also sure Embiid was the scoring leader but was he even a more impactful scorer than Jokic this season? 30.6 ppg on 61.6 TS% is great but 27.1 ppg on 66.1 TS% might be even better. Then add the gap in playmaking and there really isn't any argument that Embiid was on the same level as Jokic offensively.

The last point is just straight dumb. We're talking about a regular season award and you bring up the post-season? Not even a mention that Embiid had to face a worse lower ranked team and had massive help from Maxey, Harden and Harris against the Raptors. So far in the play-offs Embiid has less WS and VORP than all 3 of those guys. Then you look at Jokic who has to face the Warriors with no help and you view these as equal situations as well. Arguments like this just goes to show Embiid fans are grasping at straws.

[jym85]

I'm glad the actual MVP and most important player actually won
Used to annoy the crap out of me when they'd throw it at the best player on the best team just because they happened to get the best record

[Infinite Llamas]

Does this account for the fact Embiid played 6 less games???

Because if not, Embiid EASILY wins at least a couple more games & it would be a flawed stat at best.

Unless Embiid was beat up by Jokic (or someone else above Embiid in the list) so he couldn't play in those 6 games, I'm not seeing a connection.

It's not hard if you don't put your blinders on lol...

If Embiid plays the same amount of games it's INCREDIBLY likely he wins more games which defeats the purpose of pointing out who won more games. Unless you're a poster that believes Karl Malone was a greater scorer than Michael Jordan because he had more overall points without the context that Jordan played less games?! lol yeah it matters and yes it's flawed.

Tell Embiid to play more games then

[Mickey8]

Embiid got robbed

Pretty telling how everyone who is saying this don't even give reasons for why they think this.

The great defense along with the offense.

But I think Jokic should have won.

He's not the great defender nor he's some superior offensive player, he's getting lots of favorable calls all the time.

[BelgradeNugget]

Quite the opposite lol you're missing what the OP "thinks" he's proving.

True, maybe you aren't understanding. He is saying that team wins and losses isn't really a good indicator of who should win MVP.

What lol not once was that stated, that's YOUR own conclusion. We both know that this is in regards to the never ending debate on here of Jokic vs Embiid. He starts by pointing out how many overall wins the team has but then attempts to narrow down to those in which those players participated in. This was clearly an attempt to show that Jokic "also won more games" BUT as I've said it's flawed to simply say "X" player "won more games that he played in" when he literally did actually play in more games and had all things been equal, wouldn't have.

My point is simple. Not what could have happened if player X did this or that, thing is actually what has happened. Let's look at 76ers. Since Harden trade they had some important games to secure top spot in east and to prove Embiid is MVP

1. Mar 6 Miami - L
2. Mar 11 Brooklyn - L
3. Mar 15 Denver - L
4. Mar 22 Miami - W - without Embiid
5. Mar 30 Milwaukee - L

So how Embiid scored in these games 0-4 or 1-4? But if we look at his percentages if he played against Miami they should have won, right? Or maybe he would have taken some shots from Maxey and they loose. I guess he played otherworldly defense in these games, right.

So keep it simple, only Booker and Tatum won more games than Jokic this RS - fact

[RRFB]

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

Of course the bubble run didn't count. How convenient.

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

And yet, Embiid got swept in the bubble. So what does that say about him?

This notion that Embiid has had more playoff success than Jokic, just like every single other Embiid-for-MVP argument, is simply not based on reality.

[PhilBlackson]

True, maybe you aren't understanding. He is saying that team wins and losses isn't really a good indicator of who should win MVP.

What lol not once was that stated, that's YOUR own conclusion. We both know that this is in regards to the never ending debate on here of Jokic vs Embiid. He starts by pointing out how many overall wins the team has but then attempts to narrow down to those in which those players participated in. This was clearly an attempt to show that Jokic "also won more games" BUT as I've said it's flawed to simply say "X" player "won more games that he played in" when he literally did actually play in more games and had all things been equal, wouldn't have.

My point is simple. Not what could have happened if player X did this or that, thing is actually what has happened. Let's look at 76ers. Since Harden trade they had some important games to secure top spot in east and to prove Embiid is MVP

1. Mar 6 Miami - L
2. Mar 11 Brooklyn - L
3. Mar 15 Denver - L
4. Mar 22 Miami - W - without Embiid
5. Mar 30 Milwaukee - L

So how Embiid scored in these games 0-4 or 1-4? But if we look at his percentages if he played against Miami they should have won, right? Or maybe he would have taken some shots from Maxey and they loose. I guess he played otherworldly defense in these games, right.

So keep it simple, only Booker and Tatum won more games than Jokic this RS - fact

What a ridiculous "rationale" to pick & choose specific matchups/hardest stretch of the season to "validate" a stance lol. Especially handpicking which games supposedly count vs what doesn't when you've counted all Ws for each player as the same in your argument but now suddenly that's not the case.

You're trying to use a flawed comparison of saying who has more OVERALL wins despite one playing less overall games. It just simply is an inherently flawed comparison to say one guy has ONE more win despite playing SIX more games to "prove" one is supposedly better than the other, plain & simple.

[Sharkboy242]

I mean do we need to state the obvious? He plays on both ends unlike Jokic, first scoring leader for a C since Shaq, and he got out the first round.

A player can play both ends and still be less productive than a player who only plays one end. Generational offensive talents like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KD, etc. can make up for their defensive deficiencies with their historic offensive production.

And Jokic also got out of the first round when he had a healthy team. In fact, he got to the conference finals, something Embiid has never done.

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

Dude with a Melo icon telling us what’s irrelevant. Have some self awareness buddy.

[HardenToSixers]

He did the most with the least. Add in the highest PER season in league history and you have your rightful guy

how do people still talk about PER?

[3toheadmelo]

Of course the bubble run didn't count. How convenient.

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

He had a better season than Embiid according to advanced stats.

He had a better season than Embiid according to counting stats.

He won more games than Embiid this season with less help.

He has the same number of career playoff series wins as Embiid.

He's gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid.

That's a lot of arguments.

Meanwhile, the Embiid crowd: "Jokic's achievements don't count because I said so"

Your arguments are all subjective and last time I checked, MVP isn’t an “career achievement award”. If that was the case then Lebron should’ve been the MVP. Nice try though.

You’re forgetting Embiid had an injury this season which is why they lost more games than the Nuggets. But facts doesn’t fit your narratives

Embiid being the first C to be the scoring champ since 99 is something Jokic has never done.

[HardenToSixers]

True, maybe you aren't understanding. He is saying that team wins and losses isn't really a good indicator of who should win MVP.

What lol not once was that stated, that's YOUR own conclusion. We both know that this is in regards to the never ending debate on here of Jokic vs Embiid. He starts by pointing out how many overall wins the team has but then attempts to narrow down to those in which those players participated in. This was clearly an attempt to show that Jokic "also won more games" BUT as I've said it's flawed to simply say "X" player "won more games that he played in" when he literally did actually play in more games and had all things been equal, wouldn't have.

My point is simple. Not what could have happened if player X did this or that, thing is actually what has happened. Let's look at 76ers. Since Harden trade they had some important games to secure top spot in east and to prove Embiid is MVP

1. Mar 6 Miami - L
2. Mar 11 Brooklyn - L
3. Mar 15 Denver - L
4. Mar 22 Miami - W - without Embiid
5. Mar 30 Milwaukee - L

So how Embiid scored in these games 0-4 or 1-4? But if we look at his percentages if he played against Miami they should have won, right? Or maybe he would have taken some shots from Maxey and they loose. I guess he played otherworldly defense in these games, right.

So keep it simple, only Booker and Tatum won more games than Jokic this RS - fact

This actually is the stretch of games which made Embiid lose MVP and when the odds flipped. Which is so, so sad. Especially considering wins weren't very significant at that stage and we were adjusting to a new player in Harden.

[The Rebel]

I mean do we need to state the obvious? He plays on both ends unlike Jokic, first scoring leader for a C since Shaq, and he got out the first round.

A player can play both ends and still be less productive than a player who only plays one end. Generational offensive talents like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KD, etc. can make up for their defensive deficiencies with their historic offensive production.

And Jokic also got out of the first round when he had a healthy team. In fact, he got to the conference finals, something Embiid has never done.

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

The guy letting Precious Achuiwa run circles around him and being schooled in the post by Jimmy Butler is not a better defender than Jokic. Embiid beats up on teams without real centers and hides from tlreal centers, hell he had 3 fouls in 3 minutes trying to guard Jokic the only game he has played against him in years, since Embiid is always resting.

Funny the bubble doesn't count, the last time the Nuggets weren't missing at least two starters in the playoffs the went to a conference finals, Embiid cannot even get to the conference finals with 3 other max guys and a healthy roster.

[Raps in 4]

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

He had a better season than Embiid according to advanced stats.

He had a better season than Embiid according to counting stats.

He won more games than Embiid this season with less help.

He has the same number of career playoff series wins as Embiid.

He's gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid.

That's a lot of arguments.

Meanwhile, the Embiid crowd: "Jokic's achievements don't count because I said so"

Your arguments are all subjective and last time I checked, MVP isn’t an “career achievement award”. If that was the case then Lebron should’ve been the MVP. Nice try though.

You’re forgetting Embiid had an injury this season which is why they lost more games than the Nuggets. But facts doesn’t fit your narratives

Embiid being the first C to be the scoring champ since 99 is something Jokic has never done.

Stats are subjective? Wins are subjective? Injured teammates are subjective?

And last time I checked, the MVP isn't a "this year's playoff record award" either.

[HardenToSixers]

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

He had a better season than Embiid according to advanced stats.

He had a better season than Embiid according to counting stats.

He won more games than Embiid this season with less help.

He has the same number of career playoff series wins as Embiid.

He's gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid.

That's a lot of arguments.

Meanwhile, the Embiid crowd: "Jokic's achievements don't count because I said so"

Your arguments are all subjective and last time I checked, MVP isn’t an “career achievement award”. If that was the case then Lebron should’ve been the MVP. Nice try though.

You’re forgetting Embiid had an injury this season which is why they lost more games than the Nuggets. But facts doesn’t fit your narratives

Embiid being the first C to be the scoring champ since 99 is something Jokic has never done.

Don't forget that he's a defensive force.

[The Rebel]

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

Of course the bubble run didn't count. How convenient.

I mean if the bubble is all you got.. your argument is pretty weak

If ignoring the actual games and stats from the games than obviously you have no argument other than being a racist.

[3toheadmelo]

A player can play both ends and still be less productive than a player who only plays one end. Generational offensive talents like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KD, etc. can make up for their defensive deficiencies with their historic offensive production.

And Jokic also got out of the first round when he had a healthy team. In fact, he got to the conference finals, something Embiid has never done.

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

You're confusing theory and reality. Embiid giving 100% effort on defense would definitely have a big advantage on that front and we're definitely seeing that impact in the play-offs so far but with the offensive load Embiid had to carry before Harden came to town he just didn't have the luxury of going all out on defense. Just about all metrics suggest that Embiid with this partial defensive effort wasn't much more impactful on defense, if at all, than Jokic this year.

Also sure Embiid was the scoring leader but was he even a more impactful scorer than Jokic this season? 30.6 ppg on 61.6 TS% is great but 27.1 ppg on 66.1 TS% might be even better. Then add the gap in playmaking and there really isn't any argument that Embiid was on the same level as Jokic offensively.

The last point is just straight dumb. We're talking about a regular season award and you bring up the post-season? Not even a mention that Embiid had to face a worse lower ranked team and had massive help from Maxey, Harden and Harris against the Raptors. So far in the play-offs Embiid has less WS and VORP than all 3 of those guys. Then you look at Jokic who has to face the Warriors with no help and you view these as equal situations as well. Arguments like this just goes to show Embiid fans are grasping at straws.

Embiid’s defense is not more impactful than Jokic’s? And you want to say I’m not living in reality? Jokic fans hate defense it seems. That’s why Jokic has been a first round exit the past two years. Golden state was literally attacking on defense. Teams don’t do that to Embiid.

[Raps in 4]

Jokic’s offense is not good enough to outweigh Embiid offense and defense combined.

Jokic getting to the WCF in the bubble is irrelevant tbh

You're confusing theory and reality. Embiid giving 100% effort on defense would definitely have a big advantage on that front and we're definitely seeing that impact in the play-offs so far but with the offensive load Embiid had to carry before Harden came to town he just didn't have the luxury of going all out on defense. Just about all metrics suggest that Embiid with this partial defensive effort wasn't much more impactful on defense, if at all, than Jokic this year.

Also sure Embiid was the scoring leader but was he even a more impactful scorer than Jokic this season? 30.6 ppg on 61.6 TS% is great but 27.1 ppg on 66.1 TS% might be even better. Then add the gap in playmaking and there really isn't any argument that Embiid was on the same level as Jokic offensively.

The last point is just straight dumb. We're talking about a regular season award and you bring up the post-season? Not even a mention that Embiid had to face a worse lower ranked team and had massive help from Maxey, Harden and Harris against the Raptors. So far in the play-offs Embiid has less WS and VORP than all 3 of those guys. Then you look at Jokic who has to face the Warriors with no help and you view these as equal situations as well. Arguments like this just goes to show Embiid fans are grasping at straws.

Embiid’s defense is not more impactful than Jokic’s? And you want to say I’m not living in reality? Jokic fans hate defense it seems. That’s why Jokic has been a first round exit the past two years. Golden state was literally attacking on defense. Teams don’t do that to Embiid.

The Nuggets were eliminated in the first round last year? That's news to me.

[The Rebel]

He had a better season than Embiid according to advanced stats.

He had a better season than Embiid according to counting stats.

He won more games than Embiid this season with less help.

He has the same number of career playoff series wins as Embiid.

He's gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid.

That's a lot of arguments.

Meanwhile, the Embiid crowd: "Jokic's achievements don't count because I said so"

Your arguments are all subjective and last time I checked, MVP isn’t an “career achievement award”. If that was the case then Lebron should’ve been the MVP. Nice try though.

You’re forgetting Embiid had an injury this season which is why they lost more games than the Nuggets. But facts doesn’t fit your narratives

Embiid being the first C to be the scoring champ since 99 is something Jokic has never done.

Don't forget that he's a defensive force.

Defensive force hides from games with other good centers, refusing to run the defense against good guards, and has 6'5" guys taking advantage of him in the post, son defensive force.

[Sharkboy242]

You're confusing theory and reality. Embiid giving 100% effort on defense would definitely have a big advantage on that front and we're definitely seeing that impact in the play-offs so far but with the offensive load Embiid had to carry before Harden came to town he just didn't have the luxury of going all out on defense. Just about all metrics suggest that Embiid with this partial defensive effort wasn't much more impactful on defense, if at all, than Jokic this year.

Also sure Embiid was the scoring leader but was he even a more impactful scorer than Jokic this season? 30.6 ppg on 61.6 TS% is great but 27.1 ppg on 66.1 TS% might be even better. Then add the gap in playmaking and there really isn't any argument that Embiid was on the same level as Jokic offensively.

The last point is just straight dumb. We're talking about a regular season award and you bring up the post-season? Not even a mention that Embiid had to face a worse lower ranked team and had massive help from Maxey, Harden and Harris against the Raptors. So far in the play-offs Embiid has less WS and VORP than all 3 of those guys. Then you look at Jokic who has to face the Warriors with no help and you view these as equal situations as well. Arguments like this just goes to show Embiid fans are grasping at straws.

Embiid’s defense is not more impactful than Jokic’s? And you want to say I’m not living in reality? Jokic fans hate defense it seems. That’s why Jokic has been a first round exit the past two years. Golden state was literally attacking on defense. Teams don’t do that to Embiid.

The Nuggets were eliminated in the first round last year? That's news to me.

Its amazing the kind of **** people make up to slander Jokic

Just lmao @ not knowing the basic facts and calling facts subjective. Wouldn’t expect much critical thinking from a dude with a melo icon and name tho tbh.