Huge trades for Utah

[mcmurphy]

Lauri having more points than Mitchell is very misleading as Mitchell has played in less games due injury. I would fully expect Lauri to have more points at this time during the season. But one's an all star starter and the other one isn't. I'll let you figure out which one that is.

try again you will be luckier...
Mitchell despite having played a few games less, has 80 field goal attempts more of Markkanen... >10% more... and has fewer points

[payton2kemp]

Tony Allen, Payton Pritchard, Avery Bradley, Delonte West, Terry Rozier ............

James Young
J.R. Giddens
Fab Melo
Jared Sullinger
Guerschon Yabusele
JaJuan Johnson


This should be worrisome for Jazzz fans. They will be getting a lot of late picks from Cavs and Minny.

Any pick after the lottery is a crap shoot. Ainge has been fine.

Masai hasn't had as many picks and drafted OG/Siakam/Delon Wright/Kenneth Faried/Evan Fournier outside of the lottery. Much better than Ainge, he should get someone else make the draft picks and get better scouts.

If its a top 5 pick sure he got Tatum and Brown. But doesn't look like those Minny or Cavs picks will be top 5 anytime soon.

[Harry Garris]

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

It’s more on the scouting department than on the GM. Even though a lot of people don’t seem to realize this, the GM isn’t the one actually going to college games all season and breaking down hours of game tape. They have a scouting department do that, the GM makes the final decision, but they’re weighing their options based on the information they’re getting from scouts.

Also, Ainge’s draft record with late firsts isn’t any worse than anyone else. Late firsts are usually not great NBA players, regardless of who’s drafting them. That’s why it’s called a “steal” when a team gets a rotation player at the end of the first round. Because that is not the typical result.

[TheLand13]

Lauri having more points than Mitchell is very misleading as Mitchell has played in less games due injury. I would fully expect Lauri to have more points at this time during the season. But one's an all star starter and the other one isn't. I'll let you figure out which one that is.

try again you will be luckier...
Mitchell despite having played a few games less, has 80 field goal attempts more of Markkanen... >10% more... and has fewer points

Don't care. The amount of games played matters. I know you like to pretend that 5 games isn't that big of a difference, but it actually is. And when you consider how Mitchell plays compared to how Lauri plays, I would certainly hope that Lauri has better efficiency. If he didn't, we'd have a serious problem on our hands here.

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

Name a GM who has a better draft record with late first round picks.

Bob Myers?

[TheLand13]

I guess I should be fair here.

When the trade first happened, I felt that this was a win on Cleveland's end. And funny enough, I was one of the people who predicted that Lauri would break out. My reasoning for thinking this was that I, like many others, thought Utah wouldn't be a very good team. But not only have they been a good team... Lauri's still having a breakout season. Utah has gotten the best of both worlds and no matter how this season turns out, there's plenty of reasons to be excited about what's to come for them.

The same can't be said about Cleveland. Yes, they have four very young and already incredibly talented players on their team and all of whom (apart from Mitchell) are locked in long term with the team. So they're going to be a consistent playoff team for years to come. On that basis alone, you can't really call this a bad trade at all for Cleveland, especially with how well Mitchell has been playing this season and the fact that he's filled a need for Cleveland (a secondary playmaker who can create his own shot at an elite level). But... the lack of draft capitol does put them in a odd position, as it means they don't have the assets to build on the draft and fill positions that they are lacking in. They either have to rely on the players they have at hand or hope free agents will come to their team, or even worse... hope the second round picks pan out.

The first round picks from Cleveland aren't going to benefit Utah nearly as much as people think. There is a very good chance that they will be very high draft picks and those are just never something you can rely on to build a contender around. But with how good Lauri has turned out, and with how good Ochai is looking, I no longer believe that this is a clear cut win at all for Cleveland. I believe that this was a rare case of both teams coming out big and getting what they wanted out of their respective trades, which is always a good thing. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's 50/50. Right now I think Cleveland's benefited more from the deal, but I were a betting man... I would say Utah would ultimately end up benefitting more long term. But right now, it's too early to say.

I think one thing we can all agree on however is that Minnesota royally screwed this one up. On top of Kessler turning out to be a really great rim protecting center so far, Gobert has been underperforming with the Timberwolves, and the fit just isn't there.

[Harry Garris]

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

Name a GM who has a better draft record with late first round picks.

Bob Myers?

The guy who drafted Jacob Evans, Damian Jones, and Festus Ezeli? Yeah he's had some hits in the late first round as well, but so has Danny Ainge.

People act like Danny Ainge drafting non-NBA players SOME of the time with the 27th pick is some huge black mark on his resume. Literally every GM does it. Late first round is a crap shoot more or less.

[patman66]

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

Robert Williams and Grant Williams have done alright...

Pritchard is fine also.

[JN61]

Any pick after the lottery is a crap shoot. Ainge has been fine.

Also he is no Presti who has track record of multiple big time players outside of the lottery.

How many big time players did Presti pick outside the lottery? Ibaka, Reggie Jackson and...?

Well, even 2 big time players in 5 years is quite a track record but sure he picked Bledsoe, Sengun and Payne as well.

[Warriorfan]

Ainge did some really good trades for Utah. Both Cleveland and Min are one game above being a one and done lotto team for multiple drafts.

Not mentioned Utah is not a Free Agent destination so needs to draft, develop and win to keep it's stars.

[Warriorfan]

Name a GM who has a better draft record with late first round picks.

Bob Myers?

The guy who drafted Jacob Evans, Damian Jones, and Festus Ezeli? Yeah he's had some hits in the late first round as well, but so has Danny Ainge.

People act like Danny Ainge drafting non-NBA players SOME of the time with the 27th pick is some huge black mark on his resume. Literally every GM does it. Late first round is a crap shoot more or less.

Damian Jones is still in the NBA. Ezelli Started 40% of the 170 games he played in for playoff Warriors b4 retiring due to injury.

Looney and Poole, who many doubted, are late 1st players who can start for a champion. Green 2nd rd potential HOF.

Plus G league development finds like GP2, Damion Lewis, Bazemore,

[MTJazzv3]

While late FRPs have less value than lotto picks, the Jazz, sitting on 7 FRPs (and maybe more before the trade deadline), can use that massive currency to bundle them and move up to higher picks or add them into trade packages for a quality player. For example, no way the Jazz are bringing 3 rookies onto the roster this summer. And, if the trade deadline turns out quiet, they still have good vets to bundle with FRPs in trades.

[flranger]

Anyone doubting Ainge's record while in Boston, ask yourself:

If you had to pick one team, who is the strongest/deepest team currently in the NBA?
How did they become the strongest/deepest?

It's Boston and it's via draft picks made by Ainge

[Harry Garris]

Bob Myers?

The guy who drafted Jacob Evans, Damian Jones, and Festus Ezeli? Yeah he's had some hits in the late first round as well, but so has Danny Ainge.

People act like Danny Ainge drafting non-NBA players SOME of the time with the 27th pick is some huge black mark on his resume. Literally every GM does it. Late first round is a crap shoot more or less.

Damian Jones is still in the NBA. Ezelli Started 40% of the 170 games he played in for playoff Warriors b4 retiring due to injury.

Looney and Poole, who many doubted, are late 1st players who can start for a champion. Green 2nd rd potential HOF.

Plus G league development finds like GP2, Damion Lewis, Bazemore,

My man, I wasn't trying to criticize Bob Myers. I was making the point that even the best GMs in the NBA do occasionally miss on late first round picks.

[Warriorfan]

The guy who drafted Jacob Evans, Damian Jones, and Festus Ezeli? Yeah he's had some hits in the late first round as well, but so has Danny Ainge.

People act like Danny Ainge drafting non-NBA players SOME of the time with the 27th pick is some huge black mark on his resume. Literally every GM does it. Late first round is a crap shoot more or less.

Damian Jones is still in the NBA. Ezelli Started 40% of the 170 games he played in for playoff Warriors b4 retiring due to injury.

Looney and Poole, who many doubted, are late 1st players who can start for a champion. Green 2nd rd potential HOF.

Plus G league development finds like GP2, Damion Lewis, Bazemore,

My man, I wasn't trying to criticize Bob Myers. I was making the point that even the best GMs in the NBA do occasionally miss on late first round picks.

Once you have an MVP type player who makes others better its relatively easy to find the parts to be a contender.

[JonFromVA]

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

I mean these may not even end up being that late.
Plus he did draft Robert Williams and Grant williams with mid-late firsts. Walker Kessler might already be better than Gobert

Do my usual response here: with late 1sts especially, it makes no sense to think a GM has any deep insight into what’s going to happen with them. Looking at the results of a GM’s picks and saying ‘aha, this GM is bad at drafting and this GM is good’ is one of the weirdest things sports fans do; they’re not doing anything but taking a player who has some level of NBA body and skill set and hoping that they’ll develop really well, either get over obstacles that have made them less-than-elite prospects (mental/focus stuff sometimes, more often skill-related barriers like limited vision or shooting or handle) or more generally that they’ll be one of the few prospects who can master all of the really really difficult little things that a good pro player has to do in real time at full nba speed against full nba athletes, every night. You’re really just taking your best gut guess about which guy has the best shot at doing that, and there’s usually nothing any GM knows that the others don’t. They all get why the top 45 or so players are the top 45 or so players, and they all know the same strengths, weaknesses, bios, mental makeup, etc.

We really really have to start giving successful draft picks their props for having that cool and super unpredictable skill of being able to adapt to the NBA and thrive in that specific setting, rather than expecting every pick to be great and finding fault with those who don’t work out. And we definitely need to stop endlessly crediting (or slamming) GMs for taking one of those guesses over the others. The GMs aren’t doing more than taking some educated guesses, the players are doing all of the actual work and its them who are 100% responsible for the thing that the draft comes down: will a draft pick’s bodies and minds be able to slot in and perform really precise, specific, and split second things on demand every night.

Maybe organizations do this internally, but until someone starts tracking and scoring scouting I can't buy a narrative that the process is random.

Even your main point - that the players have to ultimately put in the work - is something that's scouted and presumably ranked for each prospect a team might draft.

Heck, as competitive as we all our with our opinions I'm surprised RealGM doesn't have a feature that tracks, scores, and ranks us by the predictions we make; but I suppose just like talking heads on TV it's more fun to have opinions than to be held to them.

[mcmurphy]

Lauri having more points than Mitchell is very misleading as Mitchell has played in less games due injury. I would fully expect Lauri to have more points at this time during the season. But one's an all star starter and the other one isn't. I'll let you figure out which one that is.

try again you will be luckier...
Mitchell despite having played a few games less, has 80 field goal attempts more of Markkanen... >10% more... and has fewer points

Don't care. The amount of games played matters. I know you like to pretend that 5 games isn't that big of a difference, but it actually is. And when you consider how Mitchell plays compared to how Lauri plays, I would certainly hope that Lauri has better efficiency. If he didn't, we'd have a serious problem on our hands here.

If I was Utah fan I’d be worried about Danny Ainge‘s draft record with late first round picks.

Name a GM who has a better draft record with late first round picks.

Bob Myers?

your logic is very contort...

1) the points is more related to the games played then the attempts... mmmh, ok

2) you seem to imply Lauri being a 7-0ft compared to Mitchell's 6-1ft has a under the rim playstyile when both players had 50% of FGs from 3P... instead Lauri is simply more efficient

3) Lauri is more important of Mitchell for his team

Cleveland has a NetRtg +4.8
Mitchell has a NetRtg +4.8 (on-court) and +4.1 (off-court)

Utah has a NetRtg +1.5
Lauri has a NetRtg +5.7 (on-court) and -5.8 (off-court)

When plays Lauri raises the NetRtg of his team by +4.2 pts when Mitchell's impact is pretty negligible whether he plays or doesn't play.

[Johnny Bball]

Damian Jones is still in the NBA. Ezelli Started 40% of the 170 games he played in for playoff Warriors b4 retiring due to injury.

Looney and Poole, who many doubted, are late 1st players who can start for a champion. Green 2nd rd potential HOF.

Plus G league development finds like GP2, Damion Lewis, Bazemore,

My man, I wasn't trying to criticize Bob Myers. I was making the point that even the best GMs in the NBA do occasionally miss on late first round picks.

Once you have an MVP type player who makes others better its relatively easy to find the parts to be a contender.

Not for Danny Ainge.

[TheLand13]

try again you will be luckier...
Mitchell despite having played a few games less, has 80 field goal attempts more of Markkanen... >10% more... and has fewer points

Don't care. The amount of games played matters. I know you like to pretend that 5 games isn't that big of a difference, but it actually is. And when you consider how Mitchell plays compared to how Lauri plays, I would certainly hope that Lauri has better efficiency. If he didn't, we'd have a serious problem on our hands here.

Name a GM who has a better draft record with late first round picks.

Bob Myers?

your logic is very contort...

1) the points is more related to the games played then the attempts... mmmh, ok

2) you seem to imply Lauri being a 7-0ft compared to Mitchell's 6-1ft has a under the rim playstyile when both players had 50% of FGs from 3P... instead Lauri is simply more efficient

3) Lauri is more important of Mitchell for his team

Cleveland has a NetRtg +4.8
Mitchell has a NetRtg +4.8 (on-court) and +4.1 (off-court)

Utah has a NetRtg +1.5
Lauri has a NetRtg +5.7 (on-court) and -5.8 (off-court)

When plays Lauri raises the NetRtg of his team by +4.2 pts when Mitchell's impact is pretty negligible whether he plays or doesn't play.

No, I’m implying that they both play different brands of basketball. I never once mentioned their height. Mitchell tends to create a lot more of his own shots and looks. Lauri doesn’t. That’s going to make a difference. But that’s okay, because a player who can create his own shot from anywhere is what Cleveland desperately needed.

And ffs, not the on/off crap again.

When Mitchell sits, Garland (and now Rubio) are usually always playing. Given how fantastic they are at running an offense and how deep Cleveland is, it makes sense that they still continue to play great even when Mitchell sits. That’s what happens when you have a legitimately great team. That doesn't mean Lauri is more important in Utah than Mitchell is in Cleveland. It can be for a variety of reasons.

Hell, on/off implies that Cleveland is better without Mobley, which simply is not the case.

In other words, Lauri isn't more important to his team than Mitchell is to his. Next time use stats that actually support such a theory, like VORP (which, by the way, Mitchell currently has a higher rating than Lauri, so nice try).

[Dan Z]

Also he is no Presti who has track record of multiple big time players outside of the lottery.

How many big time players did Presti pick outside the lottery? Ibaka, Reggie Jackson and...?

Well, even 2 big time players in 5 years is quite a track record but sure he picked Bledsoe, Sengun and Payne as well.

Fair enough, although I don't know if I'd count Sengun (because he traded him right away).

That's a better record than most GM's late in the draft.

[mcmurphy]

Don't care. The amount of games played matters. I know you like to pretend that 5 games isn't that big of a difference, but it actually is. And when you consider how Mitchell plays compared to how Lauri plays, I would certainly hope that Lauri has better efficiency. If he didn't, we'd have a serious problem on our hands here.



Bob Myers?

your logic is very contort...

1) the points is more related to the games played then the attempts... mmmh, ok

2) you seem to imply Lauri being a 7-0ft compared to Mitchell's 6-1ft has a under the rim playstyile when both players had 50% of FGs from 3P... instead Lauri is simply more efficient

3) Lauri is more important of Mitchell for his team

Cleveland has a NetRtg +4.8
Mitchell has a NetRtg +4.8 (on-court) and +4.1 (off-court)

Utah has a NetRtg +1.5
Lauri has a NetRtg +5.7 (on-court) and -5.8 (off-court)

When plays Lauri raises the NetRtg of his team by +4.2 pts when Mitchell's impact is pretty negligible whether he plays or doesn't play.

No, I’m implying that they both play different brands of basketball. I never once mentioned their height. Mitchell tends to create a lot more of his own shots and looks. Lauri doesn’t. That’s going to make a difference. But that’s okay, because a player who can create his own shot from anywhere is what Cleveland desperately needed.

And ffs, not the on/off crap again.

When Mitchell sits, Garland (and now Rubio) are usually always playing. Given how fantastic they are at running an offense and how deep Cleveland is, it makes sense that they still continue to play great even when Mitchell sits. That’s what happens when you have a legitimately great team. That doesn't mean Lauri is more important in Utah than Mitchell is in Cleveland. It can be for a variety of reasons.

Hell, on/off implies that Cleveland is better without Mobley, which simply is not the case.

In other words, Lauri isn't more important to his team than Mitchell is to his. Next time use stats that actually support such a theory, like VORP (which, by the way, Mitchell currently has a higher rating than Lauri, so nice try).

dude I have talked of impact on-court

when Lauri is on-court Utah has a NetRtg of +5.7 (better of NetRtg of CLE and raising the team NetRtg of +4.2)
when Mitchell is on-court CLE has a NetRtg of +4.8 (the same of avg CLE)

what do not you understand?