Draymond: “European players have not caught the same flak of winning a championship as US players

[NDaATL]

Even if thats what he means. Whats wrong with that?

I don't think it's accurate.

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

It's a matter of age + ability. KD/Bron have been dominant, top 5 players for 15+ seasons. They are older and their careers are winding down and people are saying these next few years will have a big impact on their legacy as they are being compared to all-time greats who have championships. Younger guys are not yet under the microscope being compared to all-time greats b/c they haven't YET sustained greatness for that long.

Jokic has only been a dominant player for about 4, maybe 5 seasons. Luka same deal. Once they hit their 30s if they still haven't won, they will ABSOLUTELY get flack for lack of championships. It's really a matter of being a top 5-ish player and how long you have been a top 5 player.

The reality is the dominant Euro's in the game are still young, and young players don't get blasted for lack of championships as much the older players. There will absolutely be noise for Jokic and Luka if they haven't won a championship by the time they hit their 30s. The same will be true for Morant, Tatum, Trae, Zion assuming they remain top players for a decade. Dirk was seen as a soft big who couldn't win when it mattered before 2011.

The two factors, are top 5 ish player and how long you have been a top 5 player. You don't see a lot of coverage on guys like Paul George, Derozan, Lillard, Butler, Beal for lack of championships for this reason. They aren't considered talented enough to carry a team to a championship.

[Lockdown504090]

Bigotry from minorities is way too tolerated.

[trickshot]

Dirk got a lot of flack until he won in 2011. Funny how the narrative changes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was seen as a soft Euro jump-shooting big that couldn't get it done when it mattered.

Nope, you're right. Was actually one of the biggest reputation turnarounds. Popular name here was Choke Nowitzki.

He lost to an 8 seed on a 67 win team. Coming off losing in the Finals the year prior after being up 2-0. Don't think race has much to do with that one, that's really flack-worthy.

Of course it was earned. Didn't even know race was part of this thread.

[azcatz11]

Here is the full quote since this trash twitter account is always looking for click bait

"I saw a list today that Stephen A. put out," Green said. "It was like players under the most pressure to win a championship. I think James Harden was one, Jayson Tatum was 2. CP was 3, Joker was 4, and Luka wasn't even on the list. I feel like, over the years, European players has not caught the same flak for not winning a championship as US players have and I don't understand that."

[CS707]

He's parroting Klutch talking points I imagine. Dumb take regardless, although RGM exposed threads are probably not the type of flak he's referring to. Dirk got hammered for not winning.

[XTC]

Yeah, because they're not teaming up like you guys and they openly say they're not into building superteams and tampering.

Same reason why Dame doesn't get "flack", and he's definetly not European.

Draymond is delusional. Fans don't like stars who are constantly changing ships. Simple.

[Slim Charlez]

He must not remember Dirk before 2011.

[CharityStripe34]

Pretty much every superstar-level player catches or caught heat for coming up short in the playoffs. It comes with the territory.

[jokeboy86]

What is he talking about? I recall watching Dirk's career, I remember all the flak he got for the 1st round exits, the Finals loss to Miami. Dirk was a media punching bag when it came to being "too soft" and not good enough to win it all, up until 2011.

Giannis was getting flak before he won? I sure remember he was. How can anyone say Jokic isnt getting flak. Any conversation on here, on social media, on ESPN. Whenever Jokic's name comes up people bring up the case that he's winning MVPs and it looks bad that he is winning MVPs but not winning it all. Luka just turned 24, so he is still young enough where that conversation isnt constant with him.

I cant even say this is just nowadays short term thinking, because again anyone who watched Dirk's career saw this being a massive talking point. But again its not a short term thing because this is one of the most talked about things with Jokic at the moment. Even though Jokic hasnt gone and teamed up with another All NBA level player, hell he still hasnt played with an all star yet.

I saw this coming a mile away the moment I saw Giannis start to get big and especially this season if by some chance Jokic looked like a legit MVP candidate(which he does). There's an U.S. vs them thing going on in the NBA right now and it's shifted from just a stupid casual talking head bias to now current players or ex-players because everyone has become dumber since they spend all their time on social media. The american athletes don't like that it feels like everything they do is vilified and everything that European players do is praised. They don't like that to them Jokic, Giannis, and other players not actively forming super teams, leaving the teams that draft them, or just generally not talking as much are praised while US players who move around or leave or combative with the media. Talking head media for the most part are scared of being called out specifically(except Bayless) by these athletes so for the most part they side with them in most of these arguments. As I stated in another thread American born players truly feel this is their game and that media doesn't like that or them which is far from the truth. What Draymond doesn't realize is the reason US stars have expectations on them moreso than European stars is because mainstream national media doesnt consider European players stars because they don't generate views/clicks. The metrics probably suggest that more casual/dumb fans care about American players so that's who the attention will be on. Bucks/Giannis have the longest winning streak of the season and on the ESPN NBA front page you see it's about KD, Lebron, Knicks and Bronny James and Tatum. I saw this as a fan of boxing, tennis, and soccer years ago but I didn't realize the american casual sports fan and media is almost downright xenophobic when it comes to sports they care about. Another factor with this is why are casual basketball fans/media/players/ex-players so agitated by analytics or advanced stats or the fact that modern journalists use this data when evaluating the game cause that's another thing this argument ends up turning into.

There's also a massive battle going on between American athletes and all of sports media that is getting worst and worst which explains all the new athlete podcasts and social media activity. American athletes don't like the media and perhaps they never have but now since they have the platforms and feel they have more power and leverage then in the past they now have no fear what so ever about criticizing any media or blasting them if they feel slighted, upset or whatever even if they're factually wrong at times. The problem I have with Draymond, Barnes, Arenas or any of these athletes who now have platforms is the same problem I have with social media and modern cable news in that they get a bunch of people and guests on their shows who agree with them and don't challenge them or debate them so it's just an echo chamber. Since nobody wants to ever appear wrong or shown that they just may not know what they're talking about sometimes they can just shout things into the ether and then plug their ears and say you're a hater if you don't agree with them.

[Memories]

Yeah, because they're not teaming up like you guys and they openly say they're not into building superteams and tampering.

Luka will start that trend, don’t worry. Once he leaves the Mavs to build a superteam elsewhere, that’s basically permission for other European players to follow for years to come.

[Quattro]

Giannis wasn’t catching flak till he won? Give me a break. How quickly people forget.

[Saints14]

Here is the full quote since this trash twitter account is always looking for click bait

"I saw a list today that Stephen A. put out," Green said. "It was like players under the most pressure to win a championship. I think James Harden was one, Jayson Tatum was 2. CP was 3, Joker was 4, and Luka wasn't even on the list. I feel like, over the years, European players has not caught the same flak for not winning a championship as US players have and I don't understand that."

Tatum on the list is weird because he's still young and he's not so good that it would be considered a disappointment if he doesn't win one. Harden and CP are obvious, they might have one or two more runs in them. Jokic will shoot to #1 if he wins a 3rd MVP and doesn't win a title, but he rightfully has gotten a pass for not winning with crappy rosters the past 2 postseasons

[jokeboy86]

Here is the full quote since this trash twitter account is always looking for click bait

"I saw a list today that Stephen A. put out," Green said. "It was like players under the most pressure to win a championship. I think James Harden was one, Jayson Tatum was 2. CP was 3, Joker was 4, and Luka wasn't even on the list. I feel like, over the years, European players has not caught the same flak for not winning a championship as US players have and I don't understand that."

The problem is a lot of players(including Draymond) think SAS is the voice of sports tv media now(which he's not) and therefore his opinion reflects all of tv sports media(which it doesn't). Yes he's the highest profile person on the biggest sports network but you would think the players would realize that SAS is one person and is a hot take artist. I thought Draymond was smarter than that.

[cam24thomas]

Giannis was judged by his playoff success more than anything....

[KyRo23]

Here is the full quote since this trash twitter account is always looking for click bait

"I saw a list today that Stephen A. put out," Green said. "It was like players under the most pressure to win a championship. I think James Harden was one, Jayson Tatum was 2. CP was 3, Joker was 4, and Luka wasn't even on the list. I feel like, over the years, European players has not caught the same flak for not winning a championship as US players have and I don't understand that."

Tatum on the list is weird because he's still young and he's not so good that it would be considered a disappointment if he doesn't win one. Harden and CP are obvious, they might have one or two more runs in them. Jokic will shoot to #1 if he wins a 3rd MVP and doesn't win a title, but he rightfully has gotten a pass for not winning with crappy rosters the past 2 postseasons

I want to say Tatum is on that list because he made the finals last year and didn't play too great. I mean 22 points on 37% shooting is a rough one.

So the people who are above Jokic and Luka are guys who have been in the league forever and haven't won, the guy who made the finals last season and didn't play well. Honestly it seems normal to me to think that. Jokic will indeed go to #1 if he wins another MVP.

[dhsilv2]

What does that mean?
I don't think that's how you use "flak" in a sentence.

I think it's right.

"players have not caught the same criticism"

the "of winning a championship" is where he blows things. Maybe he means "to" win?

[dhsilv2]

Even if thats what he means. Whats wrong with that?

I don't think it's accurate.

Well if we talking about players like Jokic. He does not have the expectations and pressure of winning championships like the Brons, Kds of the world

That's all we're hearing about with him...that's all we heard about from Giannis. Hell, people are already prepping to start giving it to Luka. This is absurd.

[KyRo23]

What does that mean?
I don't think that's how you use "flak" in a sentence.

I think it's right.

"players have not caught the same criticism"

the "of winning a championship" is where he blows things. Maybe he means "to" win?

Ahhh yes, that makes more sense actually. It is definitely supposed to be "to".

[Jables]

Because they aren't obsessed with legacy, it is not a European or a white thing it is a US thing. Imagine Dirk, Gasol, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, Gobert, Parker doing a Redick and saying Bob Cousy sucked because he was guarded by firemen. Nor do they seem to worship guys at the peak of the hierarchy, not nearly to the same extent Americans do.

It's not just a sample size, look at Soccer. You just don't really see behaviour like that, Cristiano Ronaldo is the closest you can get and the guy is a textbook narcissist.

Dirk got heat for being a choker, Giannis had people dissing the shooting and saying he couldn't be a number 1. But they didn't get the same level of heat a guy getting a tattoo calling himself Chosen One will ever get, no. And I don't really think a guy like Giannis ever gave much of a **** about the arbitrary alpha nonsense.

[LakersLegacy]

Giannis did
Dirk did

Joker hasn’t …. Yet

There’s a time period. Dame has been at it a lot longer than Joker. It seems they face a similar amount of flak. Some markets just appreciate having a top league player in a smaller market.