Vorp vs Per vs TS

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Vince Carter was awesome in 00-01, and better than AI, although that was a very unpopular opinion at the time, but he was not the best player in the league.

[JujitsuFlip]

As many pointed out, no one is using TS% to compare players across eras or for their whole careers, doesn't even make sense.

Well, you absolutely can use it across era's. You just have to modify it, and we've done that. TS%+ allows us to compare players between eras really well.

No one is using that single stat to compare how good a player was as many in this thread have said.........

[dhsilv2]

As many pointed out, no one is using TS% to compare players across eras or for their whole careers, doesn't even make sense.

Well, you absolutely can use it across era's. You just have to modify it, and we've done that. TS%+ allows us to compare players between eras really well.

No one is using that single stat to compare how good a player was as many in this thread have said.........

What do you mean? We use TS+ all the time to compare how great a scorer say Embiid is vs say Jordan.

Embiid is scoring 47.5 PTS per 100 with a 112 TS+

Jordan peaked at 46.4 per 100 with a 104 TS+

Does that make Embiid better? Not exactly, but it gives us real and useful context to compare them and to see that "WOW" embiid's TS is actually special. Now MJ would go on to have seasons of 112-114 as his team got better and with that his scoring dipped a bit. But we absolutely will use it as a tool to compare accross eras. Nobody is saying anything about comparing how GOOD. TS% is a measure of how efficient a player scores. We modify it to TS+ to compare how well a player scored vs the league.

[Courtside]

TS is what Nate Duncan likes and alot of poster around here prefer. It does give centers advantage though. Permitter players get punished like Iverson.

Kind of like saying assist stats punish big men. Big men are suppose to be more efficient . They taker shots closer to the goal. More likely to be fouled. Think some stats aren't really meant to be compared across positions.

Also, in Iverson's case, he was actually a pretty low percentage chucker to begin. They put some good rebounders out there with him, who used to joke that all those missed shots were their assists.

He's not the guy to use as an example here.

There are other guards who are decent close and mid, draw a lot of fouls, and then the closer you get to 40% from 3pt range, you can get TS up in the 60% range which is damn good.

Just like PER, though, it's really only useful to compare players at the same or similar position and who play similar minutes/roles. You don't compare bigs against guards, and you don't compare low minute bench demons who feast on other bench players, against starters who play big minutes against other team's starters and better defenders.

[JujitsuFlip]

Well, you absolutely can use it across era's. You just have to modify it, and we've done that. TS%+ allows us to compare players between eras really well.

No one is using that single stat to compare how good a player was as many in this thread have said.........

What do you mean? We use TS+ all the time to compare how great a scorer say Embiid is vs say Jordan.

Embiid is scoring 47.5 PTS per 100 with a 112 TS+

Jordan peaked at 46.4 per 100 with a 104 TS+

Does that make Embiid better? Not exactly, but it gives us real and useful context to compare them and to see that "WOW" embiid's TS is actually special. Now MJ would go on to have seasons of 112-114 as his team got better and with that his scoring dipped a bit. But we absolutely will use it as a tool to compare accross eras. Nobody is saying anything about comparing how GOOD. TS% is a measure of how efficient a player scores. We modify it to TS+ to compare how well a player scored vs the league.

If only there were another side of the floor

[dhsilv2]

No one is using that single stat to compare how good a player was as many in this thread have said.........

What do you mean? We use TS+ all the time to compare how great a scorer say Embiid is vs say Jordan.

Embiid is scoring 47.5 PTS per 100 with a 112 TS+

Jordan peaked at 46.4 per 100 with a 104 TS+

Does that make Embiid better? Not exactly, but it gives us real and useful context to compare them and to see that "WOW" embiid's TS is actually special. Now MJ would go on to have seasons of 112-114 as his team got better and with that his scoring dipped a bit. But we absolutely will use it as a tool to compare accross eras. Nobody is saying anything about comparing how GOOD. TS% is a measure of how efficient a player scores. We modify it to TS+ to compare how well a player scored vs the league.

If only there were another side of the floor

What are you talking about? You use tools for the purpose the tool has. TS works as a tool to compare scoring efficiency between players. You wouldn't use TS to discuss defense anymore than you'd use a watch to keep your sandwich cold.

[Blame Rasho]

TS% (plus assisted percentage ) is the only one that does a good job when comparing players IMO. PER a black box hidden formula. Probably tells you how bad a player is more than how good they are. VORP is essentially plus minus which has obvious flaws.

Per is dependent on how good the avg player is in a given season. It is why you can’t compare pers season to season. It is only useful for that given season and even at that it has its shortcomings. It doesn’t properly evaluate defensive measures and leans more to offensive stats which are easier to quantify.

What makes PER great is that it adjusts to league average. That is why PER WORKS when comparing players from different seasons. If it didn't, THEN you couldn't compare players season to season. For example you can't compare points per game in different seasons. You can however compare a 30 PER to different seasons.

The avg player could be better or worse given the players in each season. During the covid lockdown season, there were a lot of umm non nba level players playing.

[JujitsuFlip]

What do you mean? We use TS+ all the time to compare how great a scorer say Embiid is vs say Jordan.

Embiid is scoring 47.5 PTS per 100 with a 112 TS+

Jordan peaked at 46.4 per 100 with a 104 TS+

Does that make Embiid better? Not exactly, but it gives us real and useful context to compare them and to see that "WOW" embiid's TS is actually special. Now MJ would go on to have seasons of 112-114 as his team got better and with that his scoring dipped a bit. But we absolutely will use it as a tool to compare accross eras. Nobody is saying anything about comparing how GOOD. TS% is a measure of how efficient a player scores. We modify it to TS+ to compare how well a player scored vs the league.

If only there were another side of the floor

What are you talking about? You use tools for the purpose the tool has. TS works as a tool to compare scoring efficiency between players. You wouldn't use TS to discuss defense anymore than you'd use a watch to keep your sandwich cold.

Yes, so TS sucks in the context OP presents it. I don't listen to the Dunc'd on podcast so maybe OP was referring to TS+, it's not specified. I, as most others in the thread were talking about TS%.

Either way, neither is a do it all metric and makes no sense in the context of the thread, I do appreciate you assuming the typical gatekeeper role though, thank you.

[dhsilv2]

Per is dependent on how good the avg player is in a given season. It is why you can’t compare pers season to season. It is only useful for that given season and even at that it has its shortcomings. It doesn’t properly evaluate defensive measures and leans more to offensive stats which are easier to quantify.

What makes PER great is that it adjusts to league average. That is why PER WORKS when comparing players from different seasons. If it didn't, THEN you couldn't compare players season to season. For example you can't compare points per game in different seasons. You can however compare a 30 PER to different seasons.

The avg player could be better or worse given the players in each season. During the covid lockdown season, there were a lot of umm non nba level players playing.

That's true. We have to somewhat assume when using the tool that the league is generally speaking the same year to year. That obviously isn't completely true, but that's something we've never come close to solving for.

[dhsilv2]

If only there were another side of the floor

What are you talking about? You use tools for the purpose the tool has. TS works as a tool to compare scoring efficiency between players. You wouldn't use TS to discuss defense anymore than you'd use a watch to keep your sandwich cold.

Yes, so TS sucks in the context OP presents it. I don't listen to the Dunc'd on podcast so maybe OP was referring to TS+, it's not specified. I, as most others in the thread were talking about TS%.

Either way, neither is a do it all metric and makes no sense in the context of the thread, I do appreciate you assuming the typical gatekeeper role though, thank you.

This is the comment I quoted.

As many pointed out, no one is using TS% to compare players across eras or for their whole careers, doesn't even make sense.

I stated that we have good methods to use TS to compare players across different eras. TS+ or not, we always knew that you compared a player's TS% to the league in that given year vs the other player and the TS% for the league in that year. I'm completely flabbergasted by your comments in response to that.

Your statement isn't correct and I explained how you can use TS% to compare players between different eras.

[JujitsuFlip]

What are you talking about? You use tools for the purpose the tool has. TS works as a tool to compare scoring efficiency between players. You wouldn't use TS to discuss defense anymore than you'd use a watch to keep your sandwich cold.

Yes, so TS sucks in the context OP presents it. I don't listen to the Dunc'd on podcast so maybe OP was referring to TS+, it's not specified. I, as most others in the thread were talking about TS%.

Either way, neither is a do it all metric and makes no sense in the context of the thread, I do appreciate you assuming the typical gatekeeper role though, thank you.

This is the comment I quoted.

As many pointed out, no one is using TS% to compare players across eras or for their whole careers, doesn't even make sense.

I stated that we have good methods to use TS to compare players across different eras. TS+ or not, we always knew that you compared a player's TS% to the league in that given year vs the other player and the TS% for the league in that year. I'm completely flabbergasted by your comments in response to that.

Your statement isn't correct and I explained how you can use TS% to compare players between different eras.

Gatekeeper, idc. TS vs PER and VORP makes no sense, that's it, that's the point. Move goalposts elsewhere, thanks.

[dhsilv2]

Yes, so TS sucks in the context OP presents it. I don't listen to the Dunc'd on podcast so maybe OP was referring to TS+, it's not specified. I, as most others in the thread were talking about TS%.

Either way, neither is a do it all metric and makes no sense in the context of the thread, I do appreciate you assuming the typical gatekeeper role though, thank you.

This is the comment I quoted.

As many pointed out, no one is using TS% to compare players across eras or for their whole careers, doesn't even make sense.

I stated that we have good methods to use TS to compare players across different eras. TS+ or not, we always knew that you compared a player's TS% to the league in that given year vs the other player and the TS% for the league in that year. I'm completely flabbergasted by your comments in response to that.

Your statement isn't correct and I explained how you can use TS% to compare players between different eras.

Gatekeeper, idc. TS vs PER and VORP makes no sense, that's it, that's the point. Move goalposts elsewhere, thanks.

I have no idea what you're talking about with gatekeeping and what not. But you're the one moving the goalposts. You said you can't compare TS between different players in different eras and then said he doesn't work for defense out of nowhere.

[JujitsuFlip]

This is the comment I quoted.



I stated that we have good methods to use TS to compare players across different eras. TS+ or not, we always knew that you compared a player's TS% to the league in that given year vs the other player and the TS% for the league in that year. I'm completely flabbergasted by your comments in response to that.

Your statement isn't correct and I explained how you can use TS% to compare players between different eras.

Gatekeeper, idc. TS vs PER and VORP makes no sense, that's it, that's the point. Move goalposts elsewhere, thanks.

I have no idea what you're talking about with gatekeeping and what not. But you're the one moving the goalposts. You said you can't compare TS between different players in different eras and then said he doesn't work for defense out of nowhere.

Okay, I misspoke, BBR tweeted they created TS+ 3 years ago specifically to compare scoring efficiency across eras... I'm glad we got that cleared up, that was paramount to this thread.

Anyway, back on topic and to the title of the thread as well as to my original point, TS% makes zero sense in a conversation comparing advanced stats such as PER and VORP.

Since after all scoring is one facet of offense and offense is only half of the game. So, as I said, no one would use TS% to prove player A is better than player B. And even if some failed lawyer did prefer to do just that, who cares, because he's simply a sports writer, specifically about the CBA and salary cap.

[dhsilv2]

Gatekeeper, idc. TS vs PER and VORP makes no sense, that's it, that's the point. Move goalposts elsewhere, thanks.

I have no idea what you're talking about with gatekeeping and what not. But you're the one moving the goalposts. You said you can't compare TS between different players in different eras and then said he doesn't work for defense out of nowhere.

Okay, I misspoke, BBR tweeted they created TS+ 3 years ago specifically to compare scoring efficiency across eras... I'm glad we got that cleared up, that was paramount to this thread.

Anyway, back on topic and to the title of the thread as well as to my original point, TS% makes zero sense in a conversation comparing advanced stats such as PER and VORP.

Since after all scoring is one facet of offense and offense is only half of the game. So, as I said, no one would use TS% to prove player A is better than player B. And even if some failed lawyer did prefer to do just that, who cares, because he's simply a sports writer, specifically about the CBA and salary cap.

The community has been discussing TS+ in different ways for a decade. We used to just do player TS% minus league average. That was good enough but not as good as TS+. But we were doing that forever duded...

And yeah, everyone agrees PER and VORP are nothing like TS%...that goes without saying. OP sounded like a moron adding in that. That's why this thread isn't going and going and going. We all think it's stupid. But again, that's a given anyone reading this knew from the start.

[GrindCityHustle]

The Darko metric is interesting

Brandon Ingram is shooting over 40% from three in the first 25 games of the year, despite shooting 33% from three last year. What can we expect his three-point percentage to be going forward?

“Colin Sexton struggled last year in the aggregate, but closed the year extremely strong. How much should we weight his performance after the all-star break against his overall results in projecting him for next year?”





Darko.app. Is the website


Seems like it could be useful for fantasy bball

[skones]

ppg is best imo