Obi Toppin Throws Shots At Knicks After Dropping 19 Points In Preseason Game

[mg]

I noticed Obi didn't get extended by the Pacers. Makes sense to see him play in the RS first but he probably shouldn't be talking any smack yet. There's a decent chance he's just the stopgap starter in Indiana until Walker is ready.

[slickrickstyles]

As a lifelong Pacers fan that has grown to respect the Knicks (even if I say I don't) I am all for renewing this rivalry.

[NYKnickerbocker]

Obi will be joining Kevin Knox and Frank Ntillikina soon enough as a half time trivia questions

Who did the Knicks draft instead of Donovan Mitchell
Who did the Knicks draft instead of SGA
Who did the Knicks draft instead of Haliburton

[cgf]

it's not always about the accolades, sometimes it's fit. I just think Obi fits a team play better than Randle. Randle is a ball stopper and can shoot you out of games. Just because Melo is a hall of famer, the Pistons were better off with Tayshaun Prince, just a reference.

Some teams. But our offense was so successful because our best players got into the paint and created chaos. We didn't shoot particular well, but we didn't turn the ball over, we got rebounds, we got to the FT line, and we got a lot of open 3s. And Julius simply helped us with those things more than Obi did...on top of being a better defender.

Now Obi was a great burst of energy off the bench because he's great in transition and he's made a lot of progress as a shooter / ball handler / defender since being drafted, so I hope he does well on a Pacers team that should be a better fit for him...and tbh his ceiling is still the sky if he keeps progressing...but he simply wasn't as good for us as Julius these past 3 years.


I know that a lot of people are lower on Randle than I've become over the past 5 years that I've watched him closely...4 in NY + 1 in NOLA...but he's not some net negative / empty-calories player. He's taken us to the playoffs in 2 of the past 3 seasons, and he's shown he can thrive with other stars taking the ball out of his hands for us this past season & the Pels when he was there.

So even if he ends up taking DeRozan's crown...rather than just being someone who had Elfrid Payton hamstringing him in his first playoff series and his ankle limiting him last spring...that's not a run of the mill player who just anybody can replace and improve their team's results.

Obi wasn't as good as Randle because he never got the playing time Randle did and the opportunities. Every time Randle went down and Obi stepped in for him he played great and was dropping 20/10 games. How many times have Randle shot ya out of games or created many turnovers thinking he's Lebron? I've seen it several times, yea he's won ya games too and Randle is good don't get me wrong, but he can mess up the flow sometimes. And when you have a guy like Brunson, I think it's better for him to have a guy like Obi beside him rather than Randle IMO. Obi shot and play has improved alot over time and I think trading him for almost nothing is going to be a mistake.

Sample sizes. I'm not denying that Obi wasn't as good as he could've been if he were more confident in his PT and that's part of why he did better in his starts, but we're also talking about a tiny number of games...mostly against tanking teams at the end of the season; although he did well against Miami in game 1, despite not drawing as much attention as Randle did with a bum-ankle.


The performance gap was just too large in Randle's favor and Randle too durable for Obi to prove himself without being able to share the court with our best player. Never mind that Julius was a better fit for where our offense was able to build a competitive advantage. We wouldn't have been an elite offense if we tried to do it like everyone else; we're not fast enough, we don't have a high-level enough singular superstar, and we don't have good enough/enough good shooters.

But what we did have was a bunch of guys who were good at getting into the paint and from there; either getting to the FT line, getting to the rim, or causing the defense to collapse and getting someone else an open 3. Paired with a bunch of good rebounders and an emphasis on ball-security, that formula did allow Thibs to craft a top 10 offense...especially with Julius' tendency to come out of the gates hot and Brunson's tendency to heat up in the 2nd half.


Also Julius won us way more games last season than he shot us out of as he generally only monopolized the ball when he was on fire, otherwise he moved it quickly and let Brunson run the show when he didn't have an opportunity to create. That's why he was so much more efficient than his first 3 Knicks seasons, and why those two where such a great combo together.

Again you're talking to someone who still thinks Obi's ceiling is higher than any knicks' and that he's made enough progress to believe he could still get there. I wanted us to add to him for Patrick Williams in part because I like Pat a lot and thought he'd be the perfect complement to Quickley & our two Harts on the bench, but also because (living in Chicago) I wanted to be able to watch Obi's continuing development up close.

So I'm not s***ting on Obi at all, but you're either under-rating the positives Randle brings to the team or fixating too much on his disastrous 2022 season. Cause the only times he would stop the flow last season were when he was so hot that we wanted him to take however long he needed to find the right falling-out-of-bounds jumper for him to drain...at least before his ankle needed surgery.


In the end I won't be surprised if people end up baffled by how we let Obi Toppin go for so cheap, but it was the right thing to do. He wasn't going to get there on our team and Julius is just a better fit for where we are. And unless Julius had a major injury Obi wasn't going to get the chance to show what he could do with a bigger role before before becoming an FA. So getting whatever we could was the right thing to do even if it ends up looking like an absolute steal for Indy.

[dakomish23]

I don't blame him for being salty. He was the 8th pick (I think?) but never got the same opportunity as other guys drafted in that range.

The part I never understood is that this was obvious from the beginning. Randle was already there and Thibs is notorious for having both a tight leash for rookies and no patience for poor defenders. That pick never made sense and there were so many other guys there that would have been better fits (ignoring Haliburton they could have picked Avdija, Vassell or even Cole Anthony).

Thibs has had no problem feeding other young players minutes. Obi just couldn't play next to Julius and Julius exploded the same year we drafted Obi.

That is exactly what happened. Randle was horrific his first year, they drafted his replacement, then all of a sudden he turns into an all nba player. Following year Randle sucks & even has issues with fans, Obi closes the season on a tear, everyone assumes we trade Randle and Obi gets the gig. But Randle comes back again (partly due to a tempered trade market) and has another all-nba year. It was just never in the cards for Obi to be a starter in NY without them moving on from Randle. It's not that he couldn't produce when given opportunity.

Here's his numbers as a starter in

21-22
35 MPG 20 PPG 7 RPG 3 APG 57% FG 44% 3PT 82% FT
22-23
32 MPG 21.8 PPG 3.2 RPG 3.4 APG 58% FG 44% 3PT 90% FT

I wish we kept him. PF & C depth were our biggest strengths last year

[meekrab]

it's not always about the accolades, sometimes it's fit. I just think Obi fits a team play better than Randle. Randle is a ball stopper and can shoot you out of games. Just because Melo is a hall of famer, the Pistons were better off with Tayshaun Prince, just a reference.

Some teams. But our offense was so successful because our best players got into the paint and created chaos. We didn't shoot particular well, but we didn't turn the ball over, we got rebounds, we got to the FT line, and we got a lot of open 3s. And Julius simply helped us with those things more than Obi did...on top of being a better defender.

Now Obi was a great burst of energy off the bench because he's great in transition and he's made a lot of progress as a shooter / ball handler / defender since being drafted, so I hope he does well on a Pacers team that should be a better fit for him...and tbh his ceiling is still the sky if he keeps progressing...but he simply wasn't as good for us as Julius these past 3 years.


I know that a lot of people are lower on Randle than I've become over the past 5 years that I've watched him closely...4 in NY + 1 in NOLA...but he's not some net negative / empty-calories player. He's taken us to the playoffs in 2 of the past 3 seasons, and he's shown he can thrive with other stars taking the ball out of his hands for us this past season & the Pels when he was there.

So even if he ends up taking DeRozan's crown...rather than just being someone who had Elfrid Payton hamstringing him in his first playoff series and his ankle limiting him last spring...that's not a run of the mill player who just anybody can replace and improve their team's results.

Obi wasn't as good as Randle because he never got the playing time Randle did and the opportunities. Every time Randle went down and Obi stepped in for him he played great and was dropping 20/10 games.

In 15 career games as a starter, Obi got 10+ rebounds twice, once was the last game of the season when nobody was trying and another time was against Charlotte, and literally just the one 20/10 game.

[dakomish23]

IDK why the Knicks didn't value what Obi brought as a good backup for Randle. They just saw twice in the playoffs how important it was to have someone of that caliber as a sub.

In game 5 vs CLE, Randle reinjured his ankle and sat out the 2nd half. Obi comes in and scores 12 pts including the first 7 of the half to help the Knicks close out CLE on the road.

Watch on YouTube

Knicks vs MIA game 5. Elimination game for the Knicks and they completely crap the bed in the first qtr, down 24-14. Randle is horrific, going 1-7. Thibs makes one sub to start the 2nd - Obi in for Randle. Knicks go on a 18-2 run and eventually win the game, partly in part to Randle bouncing back in the final 3 quarters to finish with a good game.

Watch on YouTube

the depth was a major strength last year. I would have kept him and paid him good bench player money.

[cgf]

IDK why the Knicks didn't value what Obi brought as a good backup for Randle. They just saw twice in the playoffs how important it was to have someone of that caliber as a sub.

In game 5 vs CLE, Randle reinjured his ankle and sat out the 2nd half. Obi comes in and scores 12 pts including the first 7 of the half to help the Knicks close out CLE on the road.

Watch on YouTube

Knicks vs MIA game 5. Elimination game for the Knicks and they completely crap the bed in the first qtr, down 24-14. Randle is horrific, going 1-7. Thibs makes one sub to start the 2nd - Obi in for Randle. Knicks go on a 18-2 run and eventually win the game, partly in part to Randle bouncing back in the final 3 quarters to finish with a good game.

Watch on YouTube

the depth was a major strength last year. I would have kept him and paid him good bench player money.

Less about not valuing Obi as a backup and more about doing right by the kid when things didn't workout so giving him the opportunity to show the league what he can do in a bigger role before hitting FA.

E:
That said, I do wonder if our FO has a Fournier + protected FRP on standby that would bring someone like DFS in before the deadline if nobody will meet Brooklyn's two FRP asking price.

[dakomish23]

IDK why the Knicks didn't value what Obi brought as a good backup for Randle. They just saw twice in the playoffs how important it was to have someone of that caliber as a sub.

In game 5 vs CLE, Randle reinjured his ankle and sat out the 2nd half. Obi comes in and scores 12 pts including the first 7 of the half to help the Knicks close out CLE on the road.

Watch on YouTube

Knicks vs MIA game 5. Elimination game for the Knicks and they completely crap the bed in the first qtr, down 24-14. Randle is horrific, going 1-7. Thibs makes one sub to start the 2nd - Obi in for Randle. Knicks go on a 18-2 run and eventually win the game, partly in part to Randle bouncing back in the final 3 quarters to finish with a good game.

Watch on YouTube

the depth was a major strength last year. I would have kept him and paid him good bench player money.

Less about not valuing Obi as a backup and more about doing right by the kid when things didn't workout so giving him the opportunity to show the league what he can do in a bigger role before hitting FA.

E:
That said, I do wonder if our FO has a Fournier + protected FRP on standby that would bring someone like DFS in before the deadline if nobody will meet Brooklyn's two FRP asking price.

I doubt it was altruistic

[cgf]

IDK why the Knicks didn't value what Obi brought as a good backup for Randle. They just saw twice in the playoffs how important it was to have someone of that caliber as a sub.

In game 5 vs CLE, Randle reinjured his ankle and sat out the 2nd half. Obi comes in and scores 12 pts including the first 7 of the half to help the Knicks close out CLE on the road.

Watch on YouTube

Knicks vs MIA game 5. Elimination game for the Knicks and they completely crap the bed in the first qtr, down 24-14. Randle is horrific, going 1-7. Thibs makes one sub to start the 2nd - Obi in for Randle. Knicks go on a 18-2 run and eventually win the game, partly in part to Randle bouncing back in the final 3 quarters to finish with a good game.

Watch on YouTube

the depth was a major strength last year. I would have kept him and paid him good bench player money.

Less about not valuing Obi as a backup and more about doing right by the kid when things didn't workout so giving him the opportunity to show the league what he can do in a bigger role before hitting FA.

E:
That said, I do wonder if our FO has a Fournier + protected FRP on standby that would bring someone like DFS in before the deadline if nobody will meet Brooklyn's two FRP asking price.

I doubt it was altruistic

Doesn't need to be. They could've done the right thing for purely selfish reasons. To support our FO's rep around the league as a group that does right by its players; to avoid Obi starting to grumble about his role; to help out Leon's son; to make signing DDV & Hart easier; plus other factors I haven't even considered.

[iLLmatic860]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=tVloFuZHnRcV_n-C8CiW9Q

Carisle giving Obi the Thibs treatment. Maybe Thibs was right lol

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Yea, pretty much every player in the Pacers rotation has contributed to the teams success...except for Toppin.

He's just....kinda there?

Occasionally will make a highlight dunk, but otherwise, not really contributing anything at all.

I'm still cool with the Pacers taking the chance on him though. He was worth the gamble, low risk - just didn't pan out.

[BadWolf]

No idea why you guys expected something different from him, he was just bad, not held back.

[John Murdoch]

Hes basically KJ Martin. Knicks role players always get overhyped ( Knox)

[Hoop Hunter]

Has been as advertised. A couple of highlight dunks every game. Runs the floor great. Not very good defense. Average to poor rebounding. Only playing about 20 minutes per game.

We like to play small PF Nesmith off the bench a few more minutes than Obi. We go small at the end of a lot of games with Turner and 4 perimeter players.

Overall Obi has played pretty decent. He's a team player, rarely ever takes a bad shot. Makes the correct pass, keeps the ball moving, very important in the Pacers offensive scheme.