Did OKC mismanage the former Euroleague MVP?

[JHFVF07]

Today, as basketball players, Micic>>>>Giddey. Ppl get in love with their high picks/youngsters and sometimes miss the obvious.

[SomeBunghole]

The issue with nearly all the Euroleague MVPs(and even "lesser" stars) coming over is that they are already in their mid or late 20s and already established players. They're not 19-20 year old prospects who may end up carving out one of many possible roles in the NBA; from star to solid rotation or role player. The likes of Vezenkov, Micić, Navarro, Spanoulis, Teodosić and others are already stars in Europe, which by definition means they are the focus of an offense and in modern basketball primary ball handlers. You don't get very many role players coming over from Europe.

The problem becomes that in the NBA, these guys aren't likely to be given the same role and they end up struggling. Of course, some/many of these guys would struggle even if given that role because the NBA is too fast and too good for them, and some might also struggle even though they're potentially good enough for this role but it takes time to adjust to a different game and a different situation. Being older, it's also not likely they will wanna hang around for a few years while adjusting and learning because they can go back to Europe and make similar money and be "the man" again. NBA teams also may not wanna spend 2 seasons developing a guy who's already in his late 20s.

I can speak with some confidence on some of the guys who came over from Europe and ended up playing for the Jazz over the past 5-10 years. The most recent one, Simone Fontecchio, seems to have carved out a role for himself in this league as a three point shooter. It took a year for that to happen, as he looked lost his first season. He was already 26 when he came over, so he wasn't a spring chicken but the game just moved too quickly for him. He also struggled to adjust to the longer NBA three point line and couldn't stay in front of anyone that first year. He's much improved now and I wish him all the best in Detroit and hopefully this summer he can get on a decent team that isn't rebuilding.

What was shocking to me, though, was watching him in last summer's FIBA WC. He dropped 30 on Serbia(eventual silver medalist, we should note) in the second round and just looked like an absolute, clutch stud down the stretch. He dropped 24 on Portland earlier this year, but it was a very different kind of scoring than he did at the WC. Against Portland, he went 5-5 from the three on catch and shoots. Against Serbia, he had the ball in his hands on every possession the last 5 minutes of the game. He would bring the ball up the court and he would either look to score or set up teammates for easy baskets. It was a very different role, but it's unrealistic to expect him to be given that role in the NBA. This is especially true once the Jazz made him a starter and once he began to finish games for the Jazz. On a team featuring Markkanen, Clarkson, and Sexton, it's not realistic to think that Fontecchio will be made a primary ballhandler and creator in the clutch. I'm very happy he seems to have adjusted to his role off the ball, though I do ask myself if him being a very late bloomer in Europe helped with that. He had been a role player until he was 25.

Joe Ingles, on the other hand, is a great example of a man who adjusted to the NBA rather than adjusting to fit a new role. I know he's cooked now(he's also almost 37) but 4 years ago, the man was top 30(!) in the league in BPM. He was probably as close to under-the-radar-star as you could get. He was also 27 when he came over and had been cut by the Clippers after the final preseason game and had already gotten a plane ticket back to Australia before the Jazz picked him up. He showed flashes that first season that made you think he could become a decent spot up three point shooter. He also looked like he was actually decent at just about everything, if not spectacular. That's a nice thing, a role player with no obvious holes in his game.

I don't think anyone could have predicted that at the age of 33, he would have a season with splits of 49%-45%-85%, true shooting percentage of 67%(!!!), get 5 dimes a game while having a usage rate of only 16%, but also be running pick and rolls, getting to the basket at will, and finally, being an absolute pest and a troll without every being dirty. Joe worked his ass off, but so much of this was because the Jazz eventually trusted him and just gave him the role he had on the Australian national team. He became a secondary and then eventually a primary playmaker. And it's not just that he improved in that aspect, but being given that role suddenly improved other things too. He became a stupidly good defender for a slow, white dude and one of the best shooters in the league. The only regret for me is that the Jazz didn't bring him over when he was 20 or something. He may well have become an All-Star. Anyway...

TL/DR: NBA teams need to either focus more on identifying which role players can come over from Europe and thrive or bring the stars over while understanding that they probably need to make them primary ball handlers if they wanna get value out of them.

[stillgotgame]

There is a 0.0% chance Hayward would be healthy enough to win a Euroleague MVP.

you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row

You do realize that they play in other leagues, where it also possible to get injured too, right?

That said, Hayward maybe could win Euroleague MVP, if he is healthy, maybe he wouldn't stand out, but pretty likely he would, he is good player when healthy, so that is no diss.

Who? A 30 year old rookie back PG had 18/9 in a game between 2 bottom feeders. If he's not from Euro league this never get's close to being mentioned.
There should be a separate forum for Euro league players, I'm serious.

I'm sure this is an exciting story for 6-7 people but why aren't we talking about GG Jackson? He's a 19 year old rookie 2nd round pick with Memphis that's been lighting it up lately.

You can always create a thread of your liking if you want. I think thread was created is because he gets traded and has a very good game right away and the fact he was MVP in best league in the world outside NBA, indicates that maybe he is something and is more than 3 ppg. in OKC?

I mean people here seriously just come to vent, because thread creator used words Euroleague MVP in the title, instead of just using his name. Like, if thread is not interesting to you, do not open it, I personally do that all the time, I don't know...

You're clearly missing the point. It was 1 game against some other scrubs. Both teams seasons are over.

[UcanUwill]

Today, as basketball players, Micic>>>>Giddey. Ppl get in love with their high picks/youngsters and sometimes miss the obvious.

I wouldn't say that, but it is close. Micić just couldn't hit a shot in OKC, and they needed a guy who could hit a shot, Wallace was just much better for that role off the bench, and while Giddey also can't hit a shot, I guess he showed more in the past and is much younger, and NBA teams always try to play and develop younger guys if they can.

Micić obviously can actually shoot, maybe wont be above average, but it is not like he should be 30% which he was, some players, guards especially are just worse at finding their game in spot minutes, worse than others in this regard. Some guys can sit 5 games out, then play 10 minutes a game for two straight games, and they will be just fine, other players can't really do this that well. Some need to play constantly and more than 10 minutes to feel their game. I am not even talking about players who just can't translate to role guy, aka Scottie Wilbekins, Wade Baldwins of the world. I mean Scottie Wilbekin is a good player, but he is tweener in a way he is not good enough for NBA to be main ball handler, and he is just not useless in other role. Where someone like Pat Bev can do that very well, but if he had to pick who is better, it is relative, there are many perspectives.

[KGtabake]

Probably not, a lot of these euro MVPs aren't really playable in the NBA; Juan Carlos Narvarro, Vassilis Spanoulis, Šarūnas Jasikevičius, Nando de Colo

How was Navarro unplayable? He was just fine. Good NBA rookie. Also Nando wasn't EL MVP when he was in the NBA, he became one long after NBA stint, when he improved and hit his prime. Same with Spanoulis, won MVP in 2013, he was in the NBA in 06...

But what does that even mean, guy is Euroleague MVP, so he can't be playable in the NBA? We all know you dont care for EUroleague, you dont need to show trolish animosity.

I was just naming euroleague MVPs off the top of my head that had a cup of coffee in the league. You can't pretend like those guys are anywhere near as effective in the NBA as they were overseas come on now, obviously nobody is going to say that about Luka Doncic. Why are some players successful in Europe but not the NBA?

Kemba Walker. Serge Ibaka. Greg Monroe.
A former all star, a former block champion and a former double double player.
In the NBA.
In Europe all 3 of them are terrible.
So, what does that mean?

[UcanUwill]

You're clearly missing the point. It was 1 game against some other scrubs. Both teams seasons are over.

I agree, and I was actually not happy to see this thread pop up, not just because it is premature and silly, but title just puts target on Micić and EL and stuff like this, which always happens.
But that said, again I understand OP's reasoning, because Micić resume hints that maybe he was ''mismanaged'' so far and hes just asking question did OKC did the right thing? Maybe if they gave Vasilje more run sacrificing some of Giddeys minutes, who has been really struggling this season, maybe they could have been better?

[KembaWalker]

you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row

You do realize that they play in other leagues, where it also possible to get injured too, right?

That said, Hayward maybe could win Euroleague MVP, if he is healthy, maybe he wouldn't stand out, but pretty likely he would, he is good player when healthy, so that is no diss.

Who? A 30 year old rookie back PG had 18/9 in a game between 2 bottom feeders. If he's not from Euro league this never get's close to being mentioned.
There should be a separate forum for Euro league players, I'm serious.

I'm sure this is an exciting story for 6-7 people but why aren't we talking about GG Jackson? He's a 19 year old rookie 2nd round pick with Memphis that's been lighting it up lately.

You can always create a thread of your liking if you want. I think thread was created is because he gets traded and has a very good game right away and the fact he was MVP in best league in the world outside NBA, indicates that maybe he is something and is more than 3 ppg. in OKC?

I mean people here seriously just come to vent, because thread creator used words Euroleague MVP in the title, instead of just using his name. Like, if thread is not interesting to you, do not open it, I personally do that all the time, I don't know...

You're clearly missing the point. It was 1 game against some other scrubs. Both teams seasons are over.

Kind of irrelevant to whether the guy can ball or not. I’ve seen plenty of guys that suck at basketball come thru this city and Micic isn’t one of them. The talent is pretty apparent. PJ Washington for example, has been playing meaningless scrub ball all year, not even starting for us lately but he’s going to be a great contributor to a playoff team now, because he’s talented and it’s obvious when you watch him

[EmpireFalls]

no and Euroleague is a joke and the awards winners are not actually indicative of anything. Reminder that Doncic was the Euroleague MVP at 18 and won literally everything that year and he comes into the NBA and has a very good rookie year before adjusting and becoming a superstar.

If Micic was actually good enough for OKC to contend they'd hold onto him, but clearly OKC would rather have Hayward's veteran presence on the team. Gordon Hayward would probably win a Euroleague MVP if they played a full season today.

There is a 0.0% chance Hayward would be healthy enough to win a Euroleague MVP.

you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row

Brother I’m a Hornets fan. The guy is nowhere near reliable enough to win the MvP award in any league.

[BarbaGrizz]

OKC just didn´t had minutes for him, no shame in that

[Chuck Everett]

no and Euroleague is a joke and the awards winners are not actually indicative of anything. Reminder that Doncic was the Euroleague MVP at 18 and won literally everything that year and he comes into the NBA and has a very good rookie year before adjusting and becoming a superstar.

If Micic was actually good enough for OKC to contend they'd hold onto him, but clearly OKC would rather have Hayward's veteran presence on the team. Gordon Hayward would probably win a Euroleague MVP if they played a full season today.

There is a 0.0% chance Hayward would be healthy enough to win a Euroleague MVP.

you do realize that Micic won the MVP playing in 34 games for 1 season and 40 in another

Outside of the season where Hayward snapped his leg in Boston he's played at the bare minimum 44 games

and these aren't cases of him playing 20, getting injured, and then playing 20

no he's playing all those games in a row

Euroleague doesn't mean they don't play games against their domestic competition well. Those guys usually play 70-80 overall.

[Xatticus]

I was just naming euroleague MVPs off the top of my head that had a cup of coffee in the league.

Right. And you were wrong about half of them.

You can't pretend like those guys are anywhere near as effective in the NBA as they were overseas come on now, obviously nobody is going to say that about Luka Doncic.

Except that people were absolutely saying that about Luka Doncic before he was drafted. That was literally the argument against drafting him.

Why are some players successful in Europe but not the NBA?

That is a question that needs to be asked about each individual player. "EuroLeague players" aren't a category all of their own, just like "Duke or UNC players" aren't a category all of their own.

There are a lot of reasons why some player may flame out in the NBA. None of those reasons has anything to do with where they played before.

Stereotyping players based on where they played before is lazy and a proven terrible way to judge talent.

Nobody was saying that about Luka Doncic tho, he literally would have been the #1 pick had Sarver didn't prefer the guy from his alma mater so saying people argued against drafting him because he is European is nonsense. How was I wrong, did those guys have successful stints in the NBA under different aliases or something? You guys have an insane persecution complex and just running with your favorite narrative even tho its not what I said at all. You don't think there is a different type of athleticism especially at the guard position needed in the NBA? Mayyyyybeee that's why these 6'3" unathletic short armed guys tend to struggle, IDK that's speculation you tell me.

It's not complicated. They don't get the same opportunities and they don't have the patience to wait for coaches/GMs to figure it out, so some just leave. Petrovic was on the end of the bench in Portland and demanded a trade. You speak as though it is some sort of blessing to get paid less than some other guy while sitting on the bench and watching him do your job worse than you do. A lot of dudes just get sick of that **** and go back home.

The NBA isn't a meritocracy. It's more like the stock market. The NBA is in the business of manufacturing 'stars'. Fans buy that crap, which is good for business. A lot of people in front offices buy that crap too, which is unfortunate for their team's fans. That's why there are always a few franchises that have their hopes all wrapped up in some golden-idol-of-the-moment who kind of sucks at basketball (relative to other NBA players). The fans blame the other 14 guys on the roster for why the team sucks and decry the team's lack of shooting. Have you ever seen The Great White Hype? It's certainly not a cinematic masterpiece, but it summarizes this concept quite well.

In the NBA, there are a lot of people in positions of power that aren't particularly competent in their fields, which means a lot of bad decisions are made regularly. The best NBA players right now came over from Europe, which tells us that European players are dramatically underrepresented in the NBA right now. I tried to explain this in a post in another thread. They didn't understand. You aren't going to understand either. That's the source of your confusion though. Go study statistics (distributions in particular).

Which brings us to OKC...

We knew that Micic was a useful player, but we have a lot of really useful players. There are other players on our roster right now that you have only a passing familiarity of that you would have a great appreciation for if they were on your roster. You would hem and haw about the merits of giving up a first-round pick to acquire Kenrich or Wiggins, but if they were on your roster, you wouldn't take two in return, because you would be convinced that they were critical pieces for a title run.

What should Oklahoma City have done with this 30-year-old rookie point guard that was surplus to our needs? Should we have changed our style of play and given him 30 minutes per game to convince bad GMs around the league that they should cough up some value if they want him? Ultimately, he was required to make this salary dump happen. This move was about trimming some fat. We have one of the best teams in the league. We have one of the youngest teams in the league. We have three picks in the first round of next year's draft. And we now have a lot of cap room going into next summer's free agency.

You don't need to worry about any of this though. You've just acquired Pat Beverley and hired Doc Rivers. I'm sure that will prevent your window from slamming shut.

[zimpy27]

Today, as basketball players, Micic>>>>Giddey. Ppl get in love with their high picks/youngsters and sometimes miss the obvious.

Depends on the system. For OKC system of playing hot potato with the ball you want a guy like Giddey. Micic didn't fit well there as he likes to hold the ball more and orchestrate the offense.

Micic needed to go but yeah you could argue that OKC didn't get.great value for.him.

[Xatticus]

Today, as basketball players, Micic>>>>Giddey. Ppl get in love with their high picks/youngsters and sometimes miss the obvious.

Maybe? But Micic is also 30 years old while Giddey is a 21-year-old that averaged 16.6 ppg, 7.9 rpg, and 6.2 apg last year. You didn't think we were going to salary dump him did you? Charlotte probably could have had him instead if they threw in some draft compensation, but we weren't going to give him away to clear cap space for next summer, right?

[JustBuzzin]

I don't care what anyone says Charlotte won the trade deadline. We got 2 future 1st for Rozier/PJ no disrespect but those guys were healthy and we were not winning games with them.

Micic might be the steal of the deadline though. This dude just knows how to play the game. We got our backup PG. Excited to see how he plays for the rest of the season. He might be a real asset to the locker room.

[AussieCeltic]

Is anyone going to point out that Dirk is on fire with his thread creations at the moment?

Great write ups followed by video evidence.

Love the work.

[BigGargamel]

The Thunder were too deep to give the guy any real minutes. He was behind SGA, Giddey, Dort, Joe, Wallace when it came to guards. I felt like Micic was always going to be traded. OKC owned his rights but didn't really have the spot/role for him. Nice get for the Hornets though, if they decide to keep him long term. They need guys like that.

Hornets are also a bare bones roster right now and simply need guys, so his performance with a grain of salt. This is the start of the annual silly season for tanking teams. No names always go off this time of year.

[Up-And-Coming]

Rookies and specifically rookie guards that need the ball in their hands can easily find themselves buried on the bench on teams with more experienced ball handlers. Scotty Pippen Jr, not a rookie but is a young guard has also looked a lot better after getting consistent minutes on the Grizzlies but had a hard time getting playing time in the Lakers system (spent most in their G League).

[DCasey91]

I've wondered about this for a while and was kind of shocked the Thunder just threw the guy away to the Hornets while never having really given him a chance to settle and play consistently.

Today I was trying to check in on some Grant Williams lowlights... and Vasilije Micić just jumps out of the screen and again makes me wonder as to why the Thunder have a guy with a tremendous pedigree... and never played him.

Some random plays.

I notice that this is kind of similar to this game winner in the Euroleague semis. I had to double check, but this guy along with another Euroleague demigod, Shane Larkin, destroyed the competition.

Watch on YouTube

This is quite an impressive CV.

2× EuroLeague champion (2021, 2022)
2× EuroLeague Final Four MVP (2021, 2022)
EuroLeague MVP (2021)
Alphonso Ford EuroLeague Top Scorer Trophy (2022)
2× EuroLeague Finals Top Scorer (2021, 2022)
All-EuroLeague First Team (2021)
2× All-EuroLeague Second Team (2019, 2022)
ABA League champion (2016)
3× Turkish Super League champion (2019, 2021, 2023)
Turkish Super League Finals MVP (2023)
Turkish Super League assists leader (2019)

Did the Thunder badly mismanage this guy? Why did they never really give him a chance?

Looking at the game log, he barely had any chances. His stats are bad, but again, never really given a run. I suppose he isn't very athletic or good on D, but... the Thunder do role out a tall dude from Australia that has a hairstyle that you can't take seriously as basketball player, that can't shoot, can't finish at the rim, can't defend either. I guess he's much younger and taller though.

What are everyone's thoughts? Why didn't a guy with this CV not play with the Thunder and will he be able to carve out a good career in the NBA with the Hornets?

To the OP

Number of things:
The Coaches
Nepotism
Preference
Logjam on position
Age (He is 30 let’s not forget)

All play a factor

I’ll always be upset that OKC has Joe and we don’t
and that Capela is just in the way of Onyeka to flourish.

Bigs are abit different because they occupy less positions and spots so sometimes it’s harder to develop them

It’s 2024 now there’s def players not in the league that can play NBA.

[zimpy27]

The real question is, did other teams mess up by not trading for Micic considering how cheap he was?

[michaelm]

I've wondered about this for a while and was kind of shocked the Thunder just threw the guy away to the Hornets while never having really given him a chance to settle and play consistently.

Today I was trying to check in on some Grant Williams lowlights... and Vasilije Micić just jumps out of the screen and again makes me wonder as to why the Thunder have a guy with a tremendous pedigree... and never played him.

Some random plays.

I notice that this is kind of similar to this game winner in the Euroleague semis. I had to double check, but this guy along with another Euroleague demigod, Shane Larkin, destroyed the competition.

Watch on YouTube

This is quite an impressive CV.

2× EuroLeague champion (2021, 2022)
2× EuroLeague Final Four MVP (2021, 2022)
EuroLeague MVP (2021)
Alphonso Ford EuroLeague Top Scorer Trophy (2022)
2× EuroLeague Finals Top Scorer (2021, 2022)
All-EuroLeague First Team (2021)
2× All-EuroLeague Second Team (2019, 2022)
ABA League champion (2016)
3× Turkish Super League champion (2019, 2021, 2023)
Turkish Super League Finals MVP (2023)
Turkish Super League assists leader (2019)

Did the Thunder badly mismanage this guy? Why did they never really give him a chance?

Looking at the game log, he barely had any chances. His stats are bad, but again, never really given a run. I suppose he isn't very athletic or good on D, but... the Thunder do role out a tall dude from Australia that has a hairstyle that you can't take seriously as basketball player, that can't shoot, can't finish at the rim, can't defend either. I guess he's much younger and taller though.

What are everyone's thoughts? Why didn't a guy with this CV not play with the Thunder and will he be able to carve out a good career in the NBA with the Hornets?

Imo a team can have too many picks. It certainly can be problematic for players.