Current Jokic or Prime Steph Curry? Who was the more impactful player?

[lessthanjake]

I think the answer kind of depends on the context. In reality, peak Steph was probably a bit more impactful than current Jokic. But I do think that peak Steph benefited a fair bit from being ahead of the curve strategically, in terms of playstyle (i.e. launching tons of threes, etc.). I think if you took peak Steph and put him in today’s era—where he would not be so ahead of the curve—then current Jokic would probably be the more impactful player. That said, it’s not clear to me that that’s the right approach to take, since being able to be ahead of the curve is a virtue (albeit not one that we can assume would be replicable by that same player in all circumstances).

[nazario]

I think people underrate the impact of Golden State's defense on their dominance, and that definitely had nothing to do with Steph, but it impacts things like their postseason success and certainly things like the 73-win season..

I think you might be looking at it a little askew.
Kerr has imo never been one to lean into offensive lineups over a balanced one with a defensive edge, nor one to stack 3-point shooters on the roster.

In the 2022 finals for example, they started with wiggins-looney-draymond-Klay-Steph for 3 of 6 games, and Otto Porter Jr instead of Looney the remaining 3. Thats not offensively slanted lineups. Next men up was Gary payton jr, a defensive specialist, and Jordan Poole - the only other player capable of creating his own shot.

Those teams could be said to be so good defensively very much because of Steph and Klay. With their ability to stretch the floor giving Kerr the option to load his teams up with disciplined players who does a good teamjob defensively. Imo that's what some are missing about the construction of these Warriors teams - not many could have gotten away with such a defensively slanted frontcourt so devoid of ability to pressure the opposing defense. But they could.

[Swindle]

People forget that Curry is only good when his 3 is falling. When it’s not he turns into complete trash. 2016 finals easily clears any other choke job. How are you gonna average more turnovers than assists as a pg? At least Jokic is a big that rebounds and passes well if nothing else

[Cubbies2120]

What year was that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NBA_Finals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NBA_Finals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NBA_Finals

Yeah, him getting 4 total votes for FMVP in those 3 series combined really proves "he" destroyed "peak" LeBron.

Imagine thinking that James was at his peak in 2017 and 2018.

Also imagine conveniently forgetting some context...

2015: No Kyrie, No Love
2016: Kyrie, Love play, and LeBron leads team to GOAT comeback in NBA Finals (73 win team blows 3-1 lead...historic choke)
2017: KD takes over as the main man
2018: KD continues reign as Finals MVP

Imagine forgetting that the entire Warriors starting 5 flew together to beg KD to join, and KD became the alpha and earned two Finals MVPs...and trying to use the rings earned on KD's back as argument for Curry...

Cmon man we discussing seasons as bus driver, not as passenger...

[maxpower8888]

Give Jokic a prime Klay, Draymond, and KD, and this isn't even a question. Jokic is more impactful.

[tsherkin]

I think you might be looking at it a little askew.

Not really, just noting that the defensive quality is often overlooked in those teams.

In the 2022 finals for example, they started with wiggins-looney-draymond-Klay-Steph for 3 of 6 games, and Otto Porter Jr instead of Looney the remaining 3. Thats not offensively slanted lineups. Next men up was Gary payton jr, a defensive specialist, and Jordan Poole - the only other player capable of creating his own shot.

Yeah but immediately, you're talking about 2022. They weren't a dominant offense that year. They were 17th in the league during the RS. Sure, they turned it up in the playoffs and were 4th of 16, but that team was winning a lot with defense... and talent attrition and Klay's offensive backslide were relevant.

You're reaching a little trying to play up Steph's involvement. Basically any team with two quality guys shouldering the O have roleplayers around them. Draymond's excellence on D, and Klay's sometime excellence there in 2022, coupled to good roleplayer selection were the thing. This isn't unique to Steph at all.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

A 6'3" guard needed to be guarded and accounted for as far away as 35 feet from the rim. Really that simple.

[nazario]

I think you might be looking at it a little askew.

Not really, just noting that the defensive quality is often overlooked in those teams.

In the 2022 finals for example, they started with wiggins-looney-draymond-Klay-Steph for 3 of 6 games, and Otto Porter Jr instead of Looney the remaining 3. Thats not offensively slanted lineups. Next men up was Gary payton jr, a defensive specialist, and Jordan Poole - the only other player capable of creating his own shot.

Yeah but immediately, you're talking about 2022. They weren't a dominant offense that year. They were 17th in the league during the RS. Sure, they turned it up in the playoffs and were 4th of 16, but that team was winning a lot with defense... and talent attrition and Klay's offensive backslide were relevant.

You're reaching a little trying to play up Steph's involvement. Basically any team with two quality guys shouldering the O have roleplayers around them. Draymond's excellence on D, and Klay's sometime excellence there in 2022, coupled to good roleplayer selection were the thing. This isn't unique to Steph at all.

I really don't think its a reach saying that Steph was a vital part of why that defense was great. "Basically any team with two quality guys shouldering the O have roleplayers around them" - sure, nowhere in my post did i say otherwise. But i did say that the composition of the roster that Steph and Klay allowed Kerr to use was defensively slanted - which he happily leaned into. Warriors were never ones to sacrifice defense for offense, rather the other way around.

"Sure, they turned it up in the playoffs and were 4th of 16, but that team was winning a lot with defense". Which is my point. because they can afford to build up that side of the court trusting that Curry can do just enough offensively to give them a chance. That team had bad spacing, abysmal in fact with both Looney and Draymond on the court. But defensively that pairing was money, so they went with it. I doubt that would have been option if not for Steph.

You seem to be conflating the idea of Steph being a mediocre defender with him not being a big part of why a defense is great - year after year. Draymond is obviously a huge part of that, but Steph giving them the opportunity to build around Draymond defensively at the cost of spacing and shooting on the other end surely is part of it too. Never mind that as a team defender Steph never shortchanged the team in an attempt to conserve effort for the offense

[tsherkin]

I really don't think its a reach saying that Steph was a vital part of why that defense was great. "Basically any team with two quality guys shouldering the O have roleplayers around them" - sure, nowhere in my post did i say otherwise. But i did say that the composition of the roster that Steph and Klay allowed Kerr to use was defensively slanted - which he happily leaned into. Warriors were never ones to sacrifice defense for offense, rather the other way around.

My point was more that this isn't some trait of Steph's, it's of any star players. You load up on roleplayers at some point, that's literally what basically everyone tries to do.

This isn't something which is of advantage to him in this conversation. The Nuggets try to add defensive presence as well, they just haven't had the luxury of Draymond Green on the team to pull it all together. That's not Steph, that's "literally any focal offensive player of worth," including Jokic. That Steph enjoys the company of a multiple-time All-D guy with a DPOY to his name is more relevant than Steph's presence permitting the acquisition of defensive roleplayers. That, and before his decline, Klay's defensive value.

[Archx]

Give Jokic a prime Klay, Draymond, and KD, and this isn't even a question. Jokic is more impactful.

You forgot Iguodala who won MVP for his defense.

I would have loved to see Curry win with an injured Murray, MPJ and Reggie Jackson+Braun off the bench. I would be surprised if Curry can even make the playoffs with that team.

[og15]

Curry more impact in the regular season and more success in the post season. Their "system" is pretty much him. We saw what green was without curry in 2020.

Joker will have better stats and per bc he's a center with the ball in his hands = way more rebounds and. Assists. But curry's asymmetrical offense is a backbreaker against teams. That's why he sat all those 4th quarters in 2016. IMO they would've been almost just as successful if KD never came and they used that money on someone better than a Harrison Barnes who bricked all his open corner 3s vs the cavs.

You think that Jokic has the ball in his hands more than Curry?

Curry has more success in the postseason? By what measure? Rings? I wonder what Jokic would do with a prime Klay Thompson/Draymond Green.... or even a peak Kevin Durant?

Curry moves off ball to create shots for teammates, joker is a point center. Joker will get the assists and rebounds. Both contribute to winning but joker will get more basic stats.

Yes curry has had more success in the post season.
Klay Thompson is bi polar. Killed the okc thunder, sucked vs cavs. In the 2015 finals clinching game he scored 5 points or 0 points forgot.

Draymond green would be useless playing with joker.
Terrible fit.
Like I said the the warriors would've been pretty much just as successful with someone else joining them instead of Durant. Or even just letting Barnes get better. They had a max slot. Curry won in 2022 without KD again with Wiggins as the 2nd best player by then. Yes he's had more success.

If Durant doesn't join the Warriors he doesn't just disappear, so we have to account for the team he goes to, and the Warriors didn't have unlimited choices of players to sign that off season, so the someone else had to be one of the other guys who was available.

They would still need great, but they have to compete against the other team Durant joins.

The pre-Durant Warriors were great but much more beatable.

[Cubbies2120]

Give Jokic a prime Klay, Draymond, and KD, and this isn't even a question. Jokic is more impactful.

You forgot Iguodala who won MVP for his defense.

I would have loved to see Curry win with an injured Murray, MPJ and Reggie Jackson+Braun off the bench. I would be surprised if Curry can even make the playoffs with that team.

Imagine...

Curry, Will Barton, Austin Rivers, Aaron Gordon, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Bones Hyland...

Making the playoffs? Cmon bruh

[lessthanjake]

I really don't think its a reach saying that Steph was a vital part of why that defense was great. "Basically any team with two quality guys shouldering the O have roleplayers around them" - sure, nowhere in my post did i say otherwise. But i did say that the composition of the roster that Steph and Klay allowed Kerr to use was defensively slanted - which he happily leaned into. Warriors were never ones to sacrifice defense for offense, rather the other way around.

My point was more that this isn't some trait of Steph's, it's of any star players. You load up on roleplayers at some point, that's literally what basically everyone tries to do.

This isn't something which is of advantage to him in this conversation. The Nuggets try to add defensive presence as well, they just haven't had the luxury of Draymond Green on the team to pull it all together. That's not Steph, that's "literally any focal offensive player of worth," including Jokic. That Steph enjoys the company of a multiple-time All-D guy with a DPOY to his name is more relevant than Steph's presence permitting the acquisition of defensive roleplayers. That, and before his decline, Klay's defensive value.

What you’re saying here is right. It’s not Steph-specific for a team to load up on defensive-slanted role players around their superstar, and try to have a great defense while their superstar makes the offense good despite the defensive-slanting of the roster. Indeed, you’ve just made a post on another thread, in which you essentially talk about the Cavs having done the same with LeBron in LeBron’s early years. So yeah, you’re right that it’s not a Steph-specific model.

But I think the idea is that you have to be an outlandishly impactful offensive player to make that approach actually work really well. Usually, the offense is just going to be too bad for it to be successful. Steph was able to make it work, and that’s definitely impressive. We could conceptualize that as Steph having defensive impact, because his presence allows the team to defensively-slant their roster. Or we could conceptualize it as Steph having an even bigger offensive impact than it looks like, because the team has chosen to cannibalize a lot of his offensive impact in order to bolster the defense. Either way, I think it’s a valid point regarding Steph.

I also want to note that I think this defensive slanting stuff is an underrated thing that goes into the narrative that Steph wasn’t as good in the playoffs. As the Warriors would get deeper into the playoffs, they tended to actually slant their lineup even more towards defense. In 2015 and 2016, Iguodala’s minutes would go up a lot in the business end of the playoffs. Guys like Jordan Poole and DeMarcus Cousins had their minutes cut significantly as the team got deeper into the playoffs. David Lee got virtually no playoff minutes. Kerr has basically always decided to sacrifice offense in favor of defensive solidity *even more* as the playoffs have gone on. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Steph’s ability to generate offense has concurrently often seemed lower in later stages of the playoffs. The team is consciously making it *even harder* for him on that end, as part of trying to make sure the defense stays rock solid. This was less true in the KD years, but those also aren’t really the years people are talking about when they talk about him dropping in the playoffs.

[Onus]

Curry more impact in the regular season and more success in the post season. Their "system" is pretty much him. We saw what green was without curry in 2020.

Joker will have better stats and per bc he's a center with the ball in his hands = way more rebounds and. Assists. But curry's asymmetrical offense is a backbreaker against teams. That's why he sat all those 4th quarters in 2016. IMO they would've been almost just as successful if KD never came and they used that money on someone better than a Harrison Barnes who bricked all his open corner 3s vs the cavs.

You think that Jokic has the ball in his hands more than Curry?

Curry has more success in the postseason? By what measure? Rings? I wonder what Jokic would do with a prime Klay Thompson/Draymond Green.... or even a peak Kevin Durant?

He has a slightly worse prime Klay Thompson in MPJ

[MrBigShot]

Jokic could only dream of playing with a team that features Draymond, Klay, and KD.

[lessthanjake]

Curry more impact in the regular season and more success in the post season. Their "system" is pretty much him. We saw what green was without curry in 2020.

Joker will have better stats and per bc he's a center with the ball in his hands = way more rebounds and. Assists. But curry's asymmetrical offense is a backbreaker against teams. That's why he sat all those 4th quarters in 2016. IMO they would've been almost just as successful if KD never came and they used that money on someone better than a Harrison Barnes who bricked all his open corner 3s vs the cavs.

You think that Jokic has the ball in his hands more than Curry?

Curry has more success in the postseason? By what measure? Rings? I wonder what Jokic would do with a prime Klay Thompson/Draymond Green.... or even a peak Kevin Durant?

Curry moves off ball to create shots for teammates, joker is a point center. Joker will get the assists and rebounds. Both contribute to winning but joker will get more basic stats.

Yes curry has had more success in the post season.
Klay Thompson is bi polar. Killed the okc thunder, sucked vs cavs. In the 2015 finals clinching game he scored 5 points or 0 points forgot.

Draymond green would be useless playing with joker.
Terrible fit.
Like I said the the warriors would've been pretty much just as successful with someone else joining them instead of Durant. Or even just letting Barnes get better. They had a max slot. Curry won in 2022 without KD again with Wiggins as the 2nd best player by then. Yes he's had more success.

This is an underrated point IMO. If Durant hadn’t gone to the Warriors, they wouldn’t have run back the same team as before. They would’ve used that slot on someone. For example, my view has always been that the Warriors would’ve signed Al Horford as a free agent if they didn’t get Durant. Is Horford as good as Durant? No. But Horford would’ve still massively improved their roster, giving them a great defensive player who could stretch the floor and is a smart passer. I tend to think the Warriors would’ve won those titles if they had Horford too. Perhaps the 2018 Rockets would’ve beaten them, since they were very close as it was. But then presumably Horford wouldn’t have gotten injured in 2019 like Durant did. So, to me, I don’t really think the Warriors necessarily get fewer titles if Durant hadn’t gone there.

[HotRocks34]

Jokic >

[nazario]

Jokic could only dream of playing with a team that features Draymond, Klay, and KD.

He could also only dream of playing against the caliber of opponent the Warriors faced. OKC was basically this years Minnesota on steroids, with two players better than the best player on Minny. And the cavs were as close to a superteam as you could get in 2016.
I do think Jamal historically is a better playoffperformer than Klay, even though i prefer Klays whole package in his prime. The pre-durant team had Draymond though, so thats where the divide lies.

[Onus]

I think people underrate the impact of Golden State's defense on their dominance, and that definitely had nothing to do with Steph, but it impacts things like their postseason success and certainly things like the 73-win season.

People really don't realize that we were a defensive team with more defensive talent than offensive talent. We basically had 3 all nba level defenders and Steph/Klay. We were more like the Iverson Sixers than the Nash Suns.

People say our offense was never dominant or that Steph never led an unstoppable offense, it's because we played 2 players who weren't even looking at the rim (Bogut/Zaza/Looney and Draymond). Teams consistently didn't have to guard 2 player but at the rim.

You say the defense had nothing to do with Steph, but without Steph you can't play that many non offensive players. So the defense absolutely had to do with Steph. You think Jokic would still be as dominant if he played with Aaron Gordon and Tony Allen?

[NZB2323]

Curry more impact in the regular season and more success in the post season. Their "system" is pretty much him. We saw what green was without curry in 2020.

Joker will have better stats and per bc he's a center with the ball in his hands = way more rebounds and. Assists. But curry's asymmetrical offense is a backbreaker against teams. That's why he sat all those 4th quarters in 2016. IMO they would've been almost just as successful if KD never came and they used that money on someone better than a Harrison Barnes who bricked all his open corner 3s vs the cavs.

How does Jokic having the ball in his hands lead to him getting more rebounds?

I would say rebounding is the biggest difference between the two and Jokic has a substantial edge there.