2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Jaqua92]

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.


These last two games against Dallas are going to hurt his advanced metrics, but that's by sheer decision and deterrence. He's greater than the sum of the metrics.

The gap on defense isn't significant enough. Theres no good defensive metrics out there but being on a good defensive team by virtue is going to give good defensive metrics.

Jokic is comfortably better. In all seriousness, have you entertained the idea that it may be you who is wrong and not the majority when considering the gap between the two?

I agree that Jokic isn't trying as hard as SGA but that has nothing to do with the MVP race, you don't get points on potential effort, only on actual effort

also, while SGA has alot more help on the defensive side of the ball, it'd be hard to argue against Jokic having more help offensively

Murray started the season awful on both ends, but he's picked it up and is steadily inching closer to his usual (albeit not that impressive) rs level, had his best offensive quarter in the season vs. the Mavs just now, MPJ is better offensively than any non-SGA Thunder player and WB has helped fuel their transition game (which was already elite) to the league's best transition game

MPJ is not better than JWill. Jokic is why their offense is elite.

Jokic and SGA are not in the same tier as players.

[Exp0sed]

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.

MPJ is not better than JWill. Jokic is why their offense is elite.

Jokic and SGA are not in the same tier as players.

I didn't say they're the same tier as players and if I understood SGAfan correctly, he didn't argue that either, what I said was they're having the same tier of a season. that's not the same thing...

and while J-Dub is the better player of the two - MPJ is better offensively, come on now..


edit: Jokic is having arguably the best 5 year peak ever and top 3 for sure, he has proven it time and time again including in the playoffs when it counts, in international play and every chance he got basically. SGA isn't there (yet) as a player but we're talking about this regular season so far.

[QPR]

MPJ is arguably a better shooter than JDub but that's about it.

[Jaqua92]

MPJ is not better than JWill. Jokic is why their offense is elite.

Jokic and SGA are not in the same tier as players.

I didn't say they're the same tier as players and if I understood SGAfan correctly, he didn't argue that either, what I said was they're having the same tier of a season. that's not the same thing...

and while J-Dub is the better player of the two - MPJ is better offensively, come on now..


edit: Jokic is having arguably the best 5 year peak ever and top 3 for sure, he has proven it time and time again including in the playoffs when it counts, in international play and every chance he got basically. SGA isn't there (yet) as a player but we're talking about this regular season so far.

J Dub is averaging 4 more assists, and 4 less points on better effeciency. He's responsible for more points and is more efficient.

[SpreeS]

Jokic is a better player, but SGA is this year MVP

Shai is smashing the league with 3rd year guy with 20pts 5ast on 97TS+ and pile of 10pts role players.

[Stickmann]

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.


These last two games against Dallas are going to hurt his advanced metrics, but that's by sheer decision and deterrence. He's greater than the sum of the metrics.

The gap on defense isn't significant enough. Theres no good defensive metrics out there but being on a good defensive team by virtue is going to give good defensive metrics.

Jokic is comfortably better. In all seriousness, have you entertained the idea that it may be you who is wrong and not the majority when considering the gap between the two?

I agree that Jokic isn't trying as hard as SGA but that has nothing to do with the MVP race, you don't get points on potential effort, only on actual effort

also, while SGA has alot more help on the defensive side of the ball, it'd be hard to argue against Jokic having more help offensively

Murray started the season awful on both ends, but he's picked it up and is steadily inching closer to his usual (albeit not that impressive) rs level, had his best offensive quarter in the season vs. the Mavs just now, MPJ is better offensively than any non-SGA Thunder player and WB has helped fuel their transition game (which was already elite) to the league's best transition game

MPJ is not better than JWill. Jokic is why their offense is elite.

Jokic and SGA are not in the same tier as players.

Jalen has played excellent defense but is currently averaging 20 and 5 on below average efficiency. That’s more or less Jamal Murray production. The offensive talent on okc is incredibly overstated, SGA transforms that team from hospital magic to having the second highest net rating in nba history.

[mkot]

Read on Twitter

The crazy part is that he wasn't playing consistent 20+ minute until his 3rd season.

[SpreeS]

Also I would like to add

OKC on/off

Shai 1307min +15.4
J-Will 1228min -8.1
Dort 1090min -0.2
Wallace 1008min -2.1
Wiggs 779min +4.0
Joe 736min +2.0
Hartenstein 684min +1.8

This team holds on Shai shoulders the same way like DEN on Jokic.

[RRR3]

To argue SGA is MVP one thing. But to argue that he's the same tier player as Jokic is an egregious take.

It's outrageous.

You're saying that it's insulting that people aren't putting a guy who hasn't won anything on the same level as a 3x MVP, finals MVP, top 3 offensive player ever who is having arguably a top 5 all time peak.

It's insulting that people don't consider SGA having one of the GOAT peaks?

Will you stop this and at least try to be objective?

I don't think it's egregious to say THIS season they are close in their impact, and it's weird to me when people suggest otherwise. We have no metric in the world that shows Jokic blowing him away. It's a mix of both of them beating each other. Jokic narrowly passed him this week in WS/48, SGA has been leading him in EPM all year pretty much. The defensive difference is huge.

I think I'm being perfectly objective to say in 2024-2025 even factoring team record being much closer SGA would have a great MVP argument as well against Jokic. I personally think Jokic is a little bit better, not by much though.

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.


These last two games against Dallas are going to hurt his advanced metrics, but that's by sheer decision and deterrence. He's greater than the sum of the metrics.

The gap on defense isn't significant enough. Theres no good defensive metrics out there but being on a good defensive team by virtue is going to give good defensive metrics.

Jokic is comfortably better. In all seriousness, have you entertained the idea that it may be you who is wrong and not the majority when considering the gap between the two?

"Guys who cares if SGA has better or equal stats, it doesn't count because my snuggie bear Jokic isn't even trying"



DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF

[RRR3]

I didn't say they're the same tier as players and if I understood SGAfan correctly, he didn't argue that either, what I said was they're having the same tier of a season. that's not the same thing...

and while J-Dub is the better player of the two - MPJ is better offensively, come on now..


edit: Jokic is having arguably the best 5 year peak ever and top 3 for sure, he has proven it time and time again including in the playoffs when it counts, in international play and every chance he got basically. SGA isn't there (yet) as a player but we're talking about this regular season so far.

J Dub is averaging 4 more assists, and 4 less points on better effeciency. He's responsible for more points and is more efficient.

Your stats for JDub are completely wrong. He's averaging 1.8 more points than MPJ but with a 55.8 TS% to MPJ's 62.7%. He's also averaging 2.7 more assists, not 4

[QPR]

You'd expect his TS to be lower because he's a more dynamic offensive player who does a lot of ball handling and therefore creates a lot of his own shots. Most of MPJ's shots are jumpers off the catch/screen or layups and dunks from cuts.

I'd like to see how many of MPJ's buckets are assisted vs JDub (I could be way off base).

[RRR3]

I wasn't weighing on who was better, his stats were just factually wrong.

[kazyv]

yeah, it's all good to say/think who the better player is, but MPJ definitely is having the better season on offense, there's no doubt about that.

[Exp0sed]

yeah, it's all good to say/think who the better player is, but MPJ definitely is having the better season on offense, there's no doubt about that.

not just the better "season", no1 is doubting MPJ isn't a self creator but he's a unique and an elite gunner. perhaps in a team that lack any creation J-Dub could be more impactful on O but a team with creators still needs guys like MPJ to space the floor, and he's elite at that

he could get his shot off from anywhere, very quickly and his length makes late contests (and contests by smaller guys) - ineffective in bothering him. what all that means is that a spot-up shooter (who can also side-step, relocate and all the things we're used to seeing from great shooters nowadats) he's an elite spacer that teams can't help off of and that helps the offense in today's NBA alot more than J-Dub's edge in self creation. obviously if u put him on a bottom feeding team with no creation, he'd probably suck but in his role he is a better offensive player than J-Dub, it's not even close. J-Dub is obviously much much better defensivly, while MPJ has improved a bit he is still a below average defender all in all while Williams is an elite an super versatile defender

MPJ has shows consistently that he's an elite shooter and spacer, this isn't just a one season thing it's his entire career, that's what he does and that's his role in the NBA.

[yannisk]

At the moment SGA is the mvp for me. I have Jokic (and Giannis) as better players but SGA ticks all the boxes stats, advanced stats and team record.

A testament to Jokic greatness is how he elevates players around him. Westbrook was becoming a joke among fans, playing with Jokic he has been really good. He would have a different kind of career/perception if he had a few prime years with Jokic.

[Castle Black]

Read on Twitter

[B-easy]

I have SGA as MVP so far. Jokic has better raw stats and Advanced stats but the difference in wins is too high (while the stats are close enough).

[Special_Puppy]

I have SGA as MVP so far. Jokic has better raw stats and Advanced stats but the difference in wins is too high (while the stats are close enough).

How much of the difference in wins is due to SGA being more valuable than Jokic this year vs SGA's supporting cast being better than Jokic's?

[Stickmann]

I have SGA as MVP so far. Jokic has better raw stats and Advanced stats but the difference in wins is too high (while the stats are close enough).

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

[Snake3]

I have SGA as MVP so far. Jokic has better raw stats and Advanced stats but the difference in wins is too high (while the stats are close enough).

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.