SA37 wrote:I haven't looked at the voting #s, but:
East
C KAT / Vucevic F Giannis / F Wagner (Mobley) F J Tatum / J Brown G LaMelo Ball / D Mitchell G J Brunson / Cade Cunningham / D Lillard
West
C Jokic / D Sabonis F A Davis / JJJ F L James / K Durant / J Williams G L Doncic (K Irving) / S Curry G SGA / A Edwards / N Powell
Vucevic over Allen?
You guys will need to get me prescription for extra sedative if Vooch makes all star for the THIRD TIME in his career. This is his best season yet, he would be more deserving than before, when he was chucking shots on 53TS%, playing no d as center and making all star teams somehow, at least now his percentages are good, but come on...
SA37 wrote:I haven't looked at the voting #s, but:
East
C KAT / Vucevic F Giannis / F Wagner (Mobley) F J Tatum / J Brown G LaMelo Ball / D Mitchell G J Brunson / Cade Cunningham / D Lillard
West
C Jokic / D Sabonis F A Davis / JJJ F L James / K Durant / J Williams G L Doncic (K Irving) / S Curry G SGA / A Edwards / N Powell
Vucevic over Allen?
You guys will need to get me prescription for extra sedative if Vooch makes all star for the THIRD TIME in his career. This is his best season yet, he would be more deserving than before, when he was chucking shots on 53TS%, playing no d as center and making all star teams somehow, at least now his percentages are good, but come on...
WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
You guys will need to get me prescription for extra sedative if Vooch makes all star for the THIRD TIME in his career. This is his best season yet, he would be more deserving than before, when he was chucking shots on 53TS%, playing no d as center and making all star teams somehow, at least now his percentages are good, but come on...
WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
Allen most definitely has a better team around him, but there is a reason guy like Vucevic never been on a good team, he has big role, but was never that good. Ideally, guy like him should be back up big, not an all star. If you dont like Allen or Gobert, bring a guy who is better, Vucevic aint that.
UcanUwill wrote: You guys will need to get me prescription for extra sedative if Vooch makes all star for the THIRD TIME in his career. This is his best season yet, he would be more deserving than before, when he was chucking shots on 53TS%, playing no d as center and making all star teams somehow, at least now his percentages are good, but come on...
WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
Allen most definitely has a better team around him, but there is a reason guy like Vucevic never been on a good team, he has big role, but was never that good. Ideally, guy like him should be back up big, not an all star. If you dont like Allen or Gobert, bring a guy who is better, Vucevic aint that.
IMO, and def this season, Vucevic is better than both. That's not going to be a popular opinion on these boards, but to me there is a clear difference between guys who are good basketball players and guys who are "system" players. Allen and Gobert are system players, the same way Ben Wallace or Clint Capela were.
SA37 wrote: WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
Allen most definitely has a better team around him, but there is a reason guy like Vucevic never been on a good team, he has big role, but was never that good. Ideally, guy like him should be back up big, not an all star. If you dont like Allen or Gobert, bring a guy who is better, Vucevic aint that.
IMO, and def this season, Vucevic is better than both. That's not going to be a popular opinion on these boards, but to me there is a clear difference between guys who are good basketball players and guys who are "system" players. Allen and Gobert are system players, the same way Ben Wallace or Clint Capela were.
Again, Allen is a better player on both ends of the floor on top of being a better rebounder. There is no argument for Vucevic over Allen at this point, and the same goes for him over Gobert.
LakerLegend wrote:LeBron was literally more athletic at 35 than he was at 20
SA37 wrote: WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
Allen most definitely has a better team around him, but there is a reason guy like Vucevic never been on a good team, he has big role, but was never that good. Ideally, guy like him should be back up big, not an all star. If you dont like Allen or Gobert, bring a guy who is better, Vucevic aint that.
IMO, and def this season, Vucevic is better than both. That's not going to be a popular opinion on these boards, but to me there is a clear difference between guys who are good basketball players and guys who are "system" players. Allen and Gobert are system players, the same way Ben Wallace or Clint Capela were.
Just because guy scores points, doesn't make him all that good. Vucevic is easily the worst center out of those 3, if you have Allen and Vucevic in a vacuum team, and have to start one, you aren't starting Vucevic. Your argument against picking role/system player from great team, is picking role/system player from bad team...
SA37 wrote:I haven't looked at the voting #s, but:
East
C KAT / Vucevic F Giannis / F Wagner (Mobley) F J Tatum / J Brown G LaMelo Ball / D Mitchell G J Brunson / Cade Cunningham / D Lillard
West
C Jokic / D Sabonis F A Davis / JJJ F L James / K Durant / J Williams G L Doncic (K Irving) / S Curry G SGA / A Edwards / N Powell
Vucevic over Allen?
Yeah, and I think it's a pretty straight forward argument. Allen is the 4th-best player on his team, whereas Vucevic is arguably the best player on his team.
Vuc: 20-10 on 55-41-81 PER 21.8 win shares 5
Allen: 14-10 on 71-0-74 PER 22.8 win shares 6.8
Outside of shooting %, Allen's numbers are down from last season (when he wasn't an all-star) and down from the only season he was an all-star. Vucevic's shooting numbers (both fg%, efg%, and 3pt %) are career highs and his numbers are similar to his 1st all-star appearance.
The only reason Allen would get any consideration would be because of a lack of depth at C in the East and because his team is really good. But Vucevic is a superior player.
This entire argument is basically: I checked the boxscores and Vooch looks better.
Vooch is having a nice bounce back season as a scorer. It's the most efficiently he's ever scored so far, mostly because he's hitting his threes for the first time since he became a Bull. He's been a good inning eater on offense, but there's just zero evidence he's helping the Bulls win games. Non-Lavine lineups with Vucevic have been a joke (-19.6 per 100 in 216 minutes). Basically every Vucevic lineup has been a big negative defensively. He's one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA this year.
This brings me to my next point: checking the box score doesn't let you know about defense. Comparing Jarrett Allen, a verified defensive anchor (one of the more versatile primary rim protectors in the league), to Vucevic, by using scoring numbers completely misses all the good arguments for Allen. A strong defensive anchor who's efficient on offense, is more valuable than bad defensive center than can get you 20ppg.
I really don't want to hate on Vooch too much. He's having a nice season. To me, he's not the kind of player that deserves serious all-star consideration at all. Like sure, put him on a long list when you're writing down the best guys on all the teams, but ultimately what he's doing is pretty irrelevant.
Allen has been indispensable on both ends. Beyond his defensive work, Allen's work as a cutter and finisher is a massive booster pack and there's a reason the Cavs offense is only elite when he's on the floor.
Putting Vooch over Allen just screams swapping out bball analysis for checking the PPG.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."
SA37 wrote: WIth the exact same numbers on a mediocre team, there would be precisely 0 calls for Allen to be an all-star. It's always the same crap with guys like Allen, Gobert, Draymond Green....etc. Just overhyped role players.
Last year Gobert was on a good team, averaged better numbers than Allen is this season (14-13 and 2 blocks per game on 66fg% versus 14-10 and 1 on 71 fg% for Allen this season) and he didn't make the all-star team. Last year Allen's numbers were better than this year and he wasn't an all-star.
Literally the only case for Allen to be an all-star is "his team is good".
Allen most definitely has a better team around him, but there is a reason guy like Vucevic never been on a good team, he has big role, but was never that good. Ideally, guy like him should be back up big, not an all star. If you dont like Allen or Gobert, bring a guy who is better, Vucevic aint that.
IMO, and def this season, Vucevic is better than both. That's not going to be a popular opinion on these boards, but to me there is a clear difference between guys who are good basketball players and guys who are "system" players. Allen and Gobert are system players, the same way Ben Wallace or Clint Capela were.
It seems like by "system players" you just mean defensive players.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."
Yeah, and I think it's a pretty straight forward argument. Allen is the 4th-best player on his team, whereas Vucevic is arguably the best player on his team.
Vuc: 20-10 on 55-41-81 PER 21.8 win shares 5
Allen: 14-10 on 71-0-74 PER 22.8 win shares 6.8
Outside of shooting %, Allen's numbers are down from last season (when he wasn't an all-star) and down from the only season he was an all-star. Vucevic's shooting numbers (both fg%, efg%, and 3pt %) are career highs and his numbers are similar to his 1st all-star appearance.
The only reason Allen would get any consideration would be because of a lack of depth at C in the East and because his team is really good. But Vucevic is a superior player.
This entire argument is basically: I checked the boxscores and Vooch looks better.
Vooch is having a nice bounce back season as a scorer. It's the most efficiently he's ever scored so far, mostly because he's hitting his threes for the first time since he became a Bull. He's been a good inning eater on offense, but there's just zero evidence he's helping the Bulls win games. Non-Lavine lineups with Vucevic have been a joke (-19.6 per 100 in 216 minutes). Basically every Vucevic lineup has been a big negative defensively. He's one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA this year.
This brings me to my next point: checking the box score doesn't let you know about defense. Comparing Jarrett Allen, a verified defensive anchor (one of the more versatile primary rim protectors in the league), to Vucevic, by using scoring numbers completely misses all the good arguments for Allen. A strong defensive anchor who's efficient on offense, is more valuable than bad defensive center than can get you 20ppg.
I really don't want to hate on Vooch too much. He's having a nice season. To me, he's not the kind of player that deserves serious all-star consideration at all. Like sure, put him on a long list when you're writing down the best guys on all the teams, but ultimately what he's doing is pretty irrelevant.
Allen has been indispensable on both ends. Beyond his defensive work, Allen's work as a cutter and finisher is a massive booster pack and there's a reason the Cavs offense is only elite when he's on the floor.
Putting Vooch over Allen just screams swapping out bball analysis for checking the PPG.
I know it is unprovable point, but CAVS aren't better if they have Vuc instead of Allen. Vuc probably the most beneficiary player from playing on crappy teams in recent memory, yes, he could help winning team too if his shooting holds up, but does the guy really believe Vuc is a star and not a role player like Allen is? He is not 20 ppg on a good team, he would be role player who helps with his shooting, maybe caps at 14 ppg. and thats good, thats a good player. But to believe he is better than Allen and Gobert, come on...
I said this many times, but when both guys were in their prime, the difference between my man Jonas and vuch was just that Jonas played on a team trying to beat LeBron, hense he played 22 mpg. where Vucevic played on a random Magic team where he had no competition and was getting 14 minutes more per game. Their per minute scoring rate was always almost identical, but Jonas had seasons with seriously like 10% higher TS% to boot, go check their Basketball reference. Both scored a ton, both didnt play good defense, Jonas never played in forth quarer because of that, Vuch did. But Jonas was at least super efficient scorer.
To me, it is really insulting he was an all star and I thought that over the years we all got to the realization that was a mistake, I guess now. Vuc had nice looking jumpshot and minutes/touches and he fooled millions into thinking he was very good. I used to call him Monta Ellis of centers, numbers with very little actual goodness, thats basically Vuc during his all star years. I am really not trying to hate on a player that much, I just thought he was so massively overrated just because of his box score numbers. If he was just putting those numbers in obscurity, no problem, but the guy was voted into all star games, freaking criminal. Thats why I always ''hate'' on him, in reality he is mid, I just hate on people who think he isn't.
SA37 wrote: Yeah, and I think it's a pretty straight forward argument. Allen is the 4th-best player on his team, whereas Vucevic is arguably the best player on his team.
Vuc: 20-10 on 55-41-81 PER 21.8 win shares 5
Allen: 14-10 on 71-0-74 PER 22.8 win shares 6.8
Outside of shooting %, Allen's numbers are down from last season (when he wasn't an all-star) and down from the only season he was an all-star. Vucevic's shooting numbers (both fg%, efg%, and 3pt %) are career highs and his numbers are similar to his 1st all-star appearance.
The only reason Allen would get any consideration would be because of a lack of depth at C in the East and because his team is really good. But Vucevic is a superior player.
This entire argument is basically: I checked the boxscores and Vooch looks better.
Vooch is having a nice bounce back season as a scorer. It's the most efficiently he's ever scored so far, mostly because he's hitting his threes for the first time since he became a Bull. He's been a good inning eater on offense, but there's just zero evidence he's helping the Bulls win games. Non-Lavine lineups with Vucevic have been a joke (-19.6 per 100 in 216 minutes). Basically every Vucevic lineup has been a big negative defensively. He's one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA this year.
This brings me to my next point: checking the box score doesn't let you know about defense. Comparing Jarrett Allen, a verified defensive anchor (one of the more versatile primary rim protectors in the league), to Vucevic, by using scoring numbers completely misses all the good arguments for Allen. A strong defensive anchor who's efficient on offense, is more valuable than bad defensive center than can get you 20ppg.
I really don't want to hate on Vooch too much. He's having a nice season. To me, he's not the kind of player that deserves serious all-star consideration at all. Like sure, put him on a long list when you're writing down the best guys on all the teams, but ultimately what he's doing is pretty irrelevant.
Allen has been indispensable on both ends. Beyond his defensive work, Allen's work as a cutter and finisher is a massive booster pack and there's a reason the Cavs offense is only elite when he's on the floor.
Putting Vooch over Allen just screams swapping out bball analysis for checking the PPG.
I know it is unprovable point, but CAVS aren't better if they have Vuc instead of Allen. Vuc probably the most beneficiary player from playing on crappy teams in recent memory, yes, he could help winning team too if his shooting holds up, but does the guy really believe Vuc is a star and not a role player like Allen is? He is not 20 ppg on a good team, he would be role player who helps with his shooting, maybe caps at 14 ppg. and thats good, thats a good player. But to believe he is better than Allen and Gobert, come on...
I said this many times, but when both guys were in their prime, the difference between my man Jonas and vuch was just that Jonas played on a team trying to beat LeBron, hense he played 22 mpg. where Vucevic played on a random Magic team where he had no competition and was getting 14 minutes more per game. Their per minute scoring rate was always almost identical, but Jonas had seasons with seriously like 10% higher TS% to boot, go check their Basketball reference. Both scored a ton, both didnt play good defense, Jonas never played in forth quarer because of that, Vuch did. But Jonas was at least super efficient scorer.
To me, it is really insulting he was an all star and I thought that over the years we all got to the realization that was a mistake, I guess now. Vuc had nice looking jumpshot and minutes/touches and he fooled millions into thinking he was very good. I used to call him Monta Ellis of centers, numbers with very little actual goodness, thats basically Vuc during his all star years. I am really not trying to hate on a player that much, I just thought he was so massively overrated just because of his box score numbers. If he was just putting those numbers in obscurity, no problem, but the guy was voted into all star games, freaking criminal. Thats why I always ''hate'' on him, in reality he is mid, I just hate on people who think he isn't.
I think, functionally, Vucevic's value is that he's a big bodied screener who can shoot and pass a bit. Over his career, his shooting has gone up and down. This year it's up so he's fulfilling the basics of his role. When his shooting goes away, he just doesn't do many useful things. He's just a solid screener. His slow feet on defense and lack of verticality is a difficult thing for a high-quality team to build around. You'd need to surround him with really good defenders, and his offense isn't even close enough good enough to be worth that.
His only "winning" season (42-40 in 2019) was because Orlando built a pretty fearsome defense around Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac. The Vooch-ccentric offense was awful. Then he got to the playoffs, and Marc Gasol wiped him off the face of the earth, holding him to 11ppg on 36% shooting and Orlando indeed have to limit his minutes. To be fair, Gasol made a lot of people look bad in 2019 (Embiid and Giannis for example), and Vucevic did have a good offensive series against Milwaukee the next year. That was basically the high point of his career.
Generally, I dislike random volume offensive players getting all-star berths because, hey, points are good! Guys like Vooch, Julius Randle, D'Angelo Russell, Demar... remind me that sometimes scoring 20ppg is just a role to fill on certain teams. We know these guys aren't serious helps to winning basketball games, but we've indexed off PPG as a metric for so long that we ignore all the proof that these guys are average rather than excellent. A 20ppg scorer in a bad offense is not inherently more valuable than a rebounding specialist grabbing 10rpg on a team that needs someone to gobble boards, or a point guard who gets 7apg mainly passing in set plays to guys coming off pin-downs.
Vooch doesn't really pressure the opponent defense, and he's a welcome sight for opponent offense. I don't see a world in which Vooch can reallyt help a good team, unless the roster contruction is perfect and needs to slot in a pick & pop 5.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."
cupcakesnake wrote: This entire argument is basically: I checked the boxscores and Vooch looks better.
Vooch is having a nice bounce back season as a scorer. It's the most efficiently he's ever scored so far, mostly because he's hitting his threes for the first time since he became a Bull. He's been a good inning eater on offense, but there's just zero evidence he's helping the Bulls win games. Non-Lavine lineups with Vucevic have been a joke (-19.6 per 100 in 216 minutes). Basically every Vucevic lineup has been a big negative defensively. He's one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA this year.
This brings me to my next point: checking the box score doesn't let you know about defense. Comparing Jarrett Allen, a verified defensive anchor (one of the more versatile primary rim protectors in the league), to Vucevic, by using scoring numbers completely misses all the good arguments for Allen. A strong defensive anchor who's efficient on offense, is more valuable than bad defensive center than can get you 20ppg.
I really don't want to hate on Vooch too much. He's having a nice season. To me, he's not the kind of player that deserves serious all-star consideration at all. Like sure, put him on a long list when you're writing down the best guys on all the teams, but ultimately what he's doing is pretty irrelevant.
Allen has been indispensable on both ends. Beyond his defensive work, Allen's work as a cutter and finisher is a massive booster pack and there's a reason the Cavs offense is only elite when he's on the floor.
Putting Vooch over Allen just screams swapping out bball analysis for checking the PPG.
I know it is unprovable point, but CAVS aren't better if they have Vuc instead of Allen. Vuc probably the most beneficiary player from playing on crappy teams in recent memory, yes, he could help winning team too if his shooting holds up, but does the guy really believe Vuc is a star and not a role player like Allen is? He is not 20 ppg on a good team, he would be role player who helps with his shooting, maybe caps at 14 ppg. and thats good, thats a good player. But to believe he is better than Allen and Gobert, come on...
I said this many times, but when both guys were in their prime, the difference between my man Jonas and vuch was just that Jonas played on a team trying to beat LeBron, hense he played 22 mpg. where Vucevic played on a random Magic team where he had no competition and was getting 14 minutes more per game. Their per minute scoring rate was always almost identical, but Jonas had seasons with seriously like 10% higher TS% to boot, go check their Basketball reference. Both scored a ton, both didnt play good defense, Jonas never played in forth quarer because of that, Vuch did. But Jonas was at least super efficient scorer.
To me, it is really insulting he was an all star and I thought that over the years we all got to the realization that was a mistake, I guess now. Vuc had nice looking jumpshot and minutes/touches and he fooled millions into thinking he was very good. I used to call him Monta Ellis of centers, numbers with very little actual goodness, thats basically Vuc during his all star years. I am really not trying to hate on a player that much, I just thought he was so massively overrated just because of his box score numbers. If he was just putting those numbers in obscurity, no problem, but the guy was voted into all star games, freaking criminal. Thats why I always ''hate'' on him, in reality he is mid, I just hate on people who think he isn't.
I think, functionally, Vucevic's value is that he's a big bodied screener who can shoot and pass a bit. Over his career, his shooting has gone up and down. This year it's up so he's fulfilling the basics of his role. When his shooting goes away, he just doesn't do many useful things. He's just a solid screener. His slow feet on defense and lack of verticality is a difficult thing for a high-quality team to build around. You'd need to surround him with really good defenders, and his offense isn't even close enough good enough to be worth that.
His only "winning" season (42-40 in 2019) was because Orlando built a pretty fearsome defense around Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac. The Vooch-ccentric offense was awful. Then he got to the playoffs, and Marc Gasol wiped him off the face of the earth, holding him to 11ppg on 36% shooting and Orlando indeed have to limit his minutes. To be fair, Gasol made a lot of people look bad in 2019 (Embiid and Giannis for example), and Vucevic did have a good offensive series against Milwaukee the next year. That was basically the high point of his career.
Generally, I dislike random volume offensive players getting all-star berths because, hey, points are good! Guys like Vooch, Julius Randle, D'Angelo Russell, Demar... remind me that sometimes scoring 20ppg is just a role to fill on certain teams. We know these guys aren't serious helps to winning basketball games, but we've indexed off PPG as a metric for so long that we ignore all the proof that these guys are average rather than excellent. A 20ppg scorer in a bad offense is not inherently more valuable than a rebounding specialist grabbing 10rpg on a team that needs someone to gobble boards, or a point guard who gets 7apg mainly passing in set plays to guys coming off pin-downs.
Vooch doesn't really pressure the opponent defense, and he's a welcome sight for opponent offense. I don't see a world in which Vooch can reallyt help a good team, unless the roster contruction is perfect and needs to slot in a pick & pop 5.
He also always was very terrible free throw drawer, that was his one huge stain offensively and why other centers were just far more efficient than him. Some centers could get more free throw attempts in a single game than Magic Vucevic could get in 3 weeks sometimes. He is Center Dangelo Russell... Nowadays, it is less noticeable problem, because most players are jump shooters and foul drawing rates are way down across the board, but Vucevic is still bad even for this era. So the fact he doesn't go to the FT line, means he NEEDS to be elite shooter, or his efficiency will just never be very good at all. And it never really was, until this season where his shooting is very outlier good.
I always hated his post game, he used post game quite a lot, considering he never draw any fouls. He just has that one move, that is exactly like NBA 2k generic post hook move, where he just spins a bit and shoots a hook, and man, like you need some talent to draw zero fouls playing in a post, he never seem to do some cheat hesitation or fakes, to catch his defender reaching out or smth, he just does his hook, and its a shot, it just goes in or it doesn't, just not efficient play.
One thing Vuc has over guys like Valančiūnas, who i think was better player than Vucevic overall, but Vucevic's jump shot is quick and it requires attention, meaning he does space the defenses. Valančiūnas actually shoots 3s at a good percentage, maybe one could argue he is better spot up shooter than Vucevic if you just need one shot. But Jonas' shot mechanics is so slow, so NBA level defenders can easily leave him wide open and usually have enough time to close on him if he gets the ball. So, guy like Jonas just never was good at spacing defenses at all, despite the fact he can hit a shot. Vucevic does spaces the floor, his jumper is quick so he requires far more attention as a face up offensive player and he actually can hit jumpshots far better overall, since its harder to guard cause it is way quicker release. 7 footers who can space the floor will always have value, and I am not sayin Vucevic has no value, but if you fooling yourself into thinking he is not a role player, or that he carry offense, is where you lose me.
cupcakesnake wrote: This entire argument is basically: I checked the boxscores and Vooch looks better.
Vooch is having a nice bounce back season as a scorer. It's the most efficiently he's ever scored so far, mostly because he's hitting his threes for the first time since he became a Bull. He's been a good inning eater on offense, but there's just zero evidence he's helping the Bulls win games. Non-Lavine lineups with Vucevic have been a joke (-19.6 per 100 in 216 minutes). Basically every Vucevic lineup has been a big negative defensively. He's one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA this year.
This brings me to my next point: checking the box score doesn't let you know about defense. Comparing Jarrett Allen, a verified defensive anchor (one of the more versatile primary rim protectors in the league), to Vucevic, by using scoring numbers completely misses all the good arguments for Allen. A strong defensive anchor who's efficient on offense, is more valuable than bad defensive center than can get you 20ppg.
I really don't want to hate on Vooch too much. He's having a nice season. To me, he's not the kind of player that deserves serious all-star consideration at all. Like sure, put him on a long list when you're writing down the best guys on all the teams, but ultimately what he's doing is pretty irrelevant.
Allen has been indispensable on both ends. Beyond his defensive work, Allen's work as a cutter and finisher is a massive booster pack and there's a reason the Cavs offense is only elite when he's on the floor.
Putting Vooch over Allen just screams swapping out bball analysis for checking the PPG.
I know it is unprovable point, but CAVS aren't better if they have Vuc instead of Allen. Vuc probably the most beneficiary player from playing on crappy teams in recent memory, yes, he could help winning team too if his shooting holds up, but does the guy really believe Vuc is a star and not a role player like Allen is? He is not 20 ppg on a good team, he would be role player who helps with his shooting, maybe caps at 14 ppg. and thats good, thats a good player. But to believe he is better than Allen and Gobert, come on...
I said this many times, but when both guys were in their prime, the difference between my man Jonas and vuch was just that Jonas played on a team trying to beat LeBron, hense he played 22 mpg. where Vucevic played on a random Magic team where he had no competition and was getting 14 minutes more per game. Their per minute scoring rate was always almost identical, but Jonas had seasons with seriously like 10% higher TS% to boot, go check their Basketball reference. Both scored a ton, both didnt play good defense, Jonas never played in forth quarer because of that, Vuch did. But Jonas was at least super efficient scorer.
To me, it is really insulting he was an all star and I thought that over the years we all got to the realization that was a mistake, I guess now. Vuc had nice looking jumpshot and minutes/touches and he fooled millions into thinking he was very good. I used to call him Monta Ellis of centers, numbers with very little actual goodness, thats basically Vuc during his all star years. I am really not trying to hate on a player that much, I just thought he was so massively overrated just because of his box score numbers. If he was just putting those numbers in obscurity, no problem, but the guy was voted into all star games, freaking criminal. Thats why I always ''hate'' on him, in reality he is mid, I just hate on people who think he isn't.
I think, functionally, Vucevic's value is that he's a big bodied screener who can shoot and pass a bit. Over his career, his shooting has gone up and down. This year it's up so he's fulfilling the basics of his role. When his shooting goes away, he just doesn't do many useful things. He's just a solid screener. His slow feet on defense and lack of verticality is a difficult thing for a high-quality team to build around. You'd need to surround him with really good defenders, and his offense isn't even close enough good enough to be worth that.
His only "winning" season (42-40 in 2019) was because Orlando built a pretty fearsome defense around Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac. The Vooch-ccentric offense was awful. Then he got to the playoffs, and Marc Gasol wiped him off the face of the earth, holding him to 11ppg on 36% shooting and Orlando indeed have to limit his minutes. To be fair, Gasol made a lot of people look bad in 2019 (Embiid and Giannis for example), and Vucevic did have a good offensive series against Milwaukee the next year. That was basically the high point of his career.
Generally, I dislike random volume offensive players getting all-star berths because, hey, points are good! Guys like Vooch, Julius Randle, D'Angelo Russell, Demar... remind me that sometimes scoring 20ppg is just a role to fill on certain teams. We know these guys aren't serious helps to winning basketball games, but we've indexed off PPG as a metric for so long that we ignore all the proof that these guys are average rather than excellent. A 20ppg scorer in a bad offense is not inherently more valuable than a rebounding specialist grabbing 10rpg on a team that needs someone to gobble boards, or a point guard who gets 7apg mainly passing in set plays to guys coming off pin-downs.
Vooch doesn't really pressure the opponent defense, and he's a welcome sight for opponent offense. I don't see a world in which Vooch can reallyt help a good team, unless the roster contruction is perfect and needs to slot in a pick & pop 5.
This is where we differ in our analysis. You're basically **** on a good offensive player who has played almost exclusively on bad teams and trying to say glorified role players who happen to be on a good team are better. This argument goes down the toilet once these role players are asked to take real responsibility in carrying their teams. And this is why you almost always see NBA teams fall apart when their offensive stars go down.
Only a select few NBA players can consistently put up great numbers, be above average in all facets of the game, and also lead good teams. Teams game plan on how to stop Vucevic, DeRozan, Randle...etc; no team is game planning on how to stop Allen, Gobert, or Draymond Green.
Again, Gobert, Draymond Green, Jrue Holiday, OG Anunoby, Ben Wallace...etc all these guys have gotten exposed when they changed teams, trades were made, or injuries led to them being given them more responsibility in the success of their teams. A great example is Draymond Green in 2019-2020. The team was ravaged by injuries and he managed 8ppg 6reb 6 asst per game. And this is why all these deep metrics are flawed because it omits the fact these are all people who are the product of a system where their flaws are covered up by being surrounded by better players around them.
A lot of people were on KAT for the same kind of stuff being argued about Vucecic, but now no one is saying that because he is destroying in NY. What are we hearing about Gobert and him being a top-10 NBA player/MVP contender and his anchoring Minnesota's D all by himself? All that silliness has stopped now, as it has with Draymond Green.
UcanUwill wrote: I know it is unprovable point, but CAVS aren't better if they have Vuc instead of Allen. Vuc probably the most beneficiary player from playing on crappy teams in recent memory, yes, he could help winning team too if his shooting holds up, but does the guy really believe Vuc is a star and not a role player like Allen is? He is not 20 ppg on a good team, he would be role player who helps with his shooting, maybe caps at 14 ppg. and thats good, thats a good player. But to believe he is better than Allen and Gobert, come on...
I said this many times, but when both guys were in their prime, the difference between my man Jonas and vuch was just that Jonas played on a team trying to beat LeBron, hense he played 22 mpg. where Vucevic played on a random Magic team where he had no competition and was getting 14 minutes more per game. Their per minute scoring rate was always almost identical, but Jonas had seasons with seriously like 10% higher TS% to boot, go check their Basketball reference. Both scored a ton, both didnt play good defense, Jonas never played in forth quarer because of that, Vuch did. But Jonas was at least super efficient scorer.
To me, it is really insulting he was an all star and I thought that over the years we all got to the realization that was a mistake, I guess now. Vuc had nice looking jumpshot and minutes/touches and he fooled millions into thinking he was very good. I used to call him Monta Ellis of centers, numbers with very little actual goodness, thats basically Vuc during his all star years. I am really not trying to hate on a player that much, I just thought he was so massively overrated just because of his box score numbers. If he was just putting those numbers in obscurity, no problem, but the guy was voted into all star games, freaking criminal. Thats why I always ''hate'' on him, in reality he is mid, I just hate on people who think he isn't.
I think, functionally, Vucevic's value is that he's a big bodied screener who can shoot and pass a bit. Over his career, his shooting has gone up and down. This year it's up so he's fulfilling the basics of his role. When his shooting goes away, he just doesn't do many useful things. He's just a solid screener. His slow feet on defense and lack of verticality is a difficult thing for a high-quality team to build around. You'd need to surround him with really good defenders, and his offense isn't even close enough good enough to be worth that.
His only "winning" season (42-40 in 2019) was because Orlando built a pretty fearsome defense around Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac. The Vooch-ccentric offense was awful. Then he got to the playoffs, and Marc Gasol wiped him off the face of the earth, holding him to 11ppg on 36% shooting and Orlando indeed have to limit his minutes. To be fair, Gasol made a lot of people look bad in 2019 (Embiid and Giannis for example), and Vucevic did have a good offensive series against Milwaukee the next year. That was basically the high point of his career.
Generally, I dislike random volume offensive players getting all-star berths because, hey, points are good! Guys like Vooch, Julius Randle, D'Angelo Russell, Demar... remind me that sometimes scoring 20ppg is just a role to fill on certain teams. We know these guys aren't serious helps to winning basketball games, but we've indexed off PPG as a metric for so long that we ignore all the proof that these guys are average rather than excellent. A 20ppg scorer in a bad offense is not inherently more valuable than a rebounding specialist grabbing 10rpg on a team that needs someone to gobble boards, or a point guard who gets 7apg mainly passing in set plays to guys coming off pin-downs.
Vooch doesn't really pressure the opponent defense, and he's a welcome sight for opponent offense. I don't see a world in which Vooch can reallyt help a good team, unless the roster contruction is perfect and needs to slot in a pick & pop 5.
This is where we differ in our analysis. You're basically **** on a good offensive player who has played almost exclusively on bad teams and trying to say glorified role players who happen to be on a good team are better. This argument goes down the toilet once these role players are asked to take real responsibility in carrying their teams. And this is why you almost always see NBA teams fall apart when their offensive stars go down.
Only a select few NBA players can consistently put up great numbers, be above average in all facets of the game, and also lead good teams. Teams game plan on how to stop Vucevic, DeRozan, Randle...etc; no team is game planning on how to stop Allen, Gobert, or Draymond Green.
Again, Gobert, Draymond Green, Jrue Holiday, OG Anunoby, Ben Wallace...etc all these guys have gotten exposed when they changed teams, trades were made, or injuries led to them being given them more responsibility in the success of their teams. A great example is Draymond Green in 2019-2020. The team was ravaged by injuries and he managed 8ppg 6reb 6 asst per game. And this is why all these deep metrics are flawed because it omits the fact these are all people who are the product of a system where their flaws are covered up by being surrounded by better players around them.
A lot of people were on KAT for the same kind of stuff being argued about Vucecic, but now no one is saying that because he is destroying in NY. What are we hearing about Gobert and him being a top-10 NBA player/MVP contender and his anchoring Minnesota's D all by himself? All that silliness has stopped now, as it has with Draymond Green.
Again it just sounds like you only understand offense, and specifically scoring.
Teams may not need to plan to stop *insert defensive player here*'s scoring, but they do need to plan how to score on them.
You telling me a defensive guy couldn't assume a larger offensive role doesn't mean much to me. Why would I care about Ben Wallace not being able to replace scoring. His job was to make it really easy to build a top 5 defense. He got injured after he left Detroit, and once he lost his peak athleticism he lost quite a bit of his value, but he remained a defensive booster pack whenever he was on the court for the rest of his days. No idea what you're talking about with your list of players. Gobert has continued to anchor top 10 defenses every year (he's also getting old and that will stop soon, but hey, Minnesota is 7th in defense despite their offensive struggles). OG? Jrue? What are you specifically saying about these guys relative to Vucevic?
Ok but forget defense for a second. I'm not sure Vooch is a more valuable offensive player than Jarrett Allen. Allen is one of the best cutters in the NBA. He's extremely light on his feet and brilliant with his timing. Go too hard after Cleveland's guards, Allen ducks into space and boom dunk. Cleveland's offense has been way better with Allen on the floor for years, even when you separate him from the other starters. He puts pressure on the rim that Vooch really doesn't because he's such a limited athlete.
Vooch is a better shooter, and he's shooting the ball well this year. I don't see what else you like about his game besides seeing that nice 20 and 10 and equating that with all-star.
All kinds of different players, offensive or defensive slanted, need other kinds of players to succeed. Passers need finishers and vice versa. Drivers need spacers. Spacers need kickouts, defensive liabilities need defensive aces, offensively challenged players need scorers/playmakers.
You're making these criticism of defensive players, but not investigating the inverse. What happens when offensive stars lose their defensive support? Detroit didn't make the finals again after Ben Wallace left. They became a better offensive team, but the Wades and Lebron now scored at the basket against Detroit and beat them. What has Toronto done since OG left? Milwaukee after they let go of Jrue to get Dame?
I'm not actually here to **** on offense-only players. I think fans like you overrate them and assume too much value, but I'm not saying they're not good. They're super important parts of the puzzle. The top 5 offensive guys are usually the best player in the league. I'm less interested in the.... 30th best offensive player if he's not a good defender, you know? I don't think that guy definitely carries a more value than a defensive star.
side note: Trading Towns was actually devastating for our offense AND our defense. His spacing and ability to guard forwards was indispensible to what we did. I've been defending Towns for years, despite his deficiencies as a defender when he plays center.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."
cupcakesnake wrote: I think, functionally, Vucevic's value is that he's a big bodied screener who can shoot and pass a bit. Over his career, his shooting has gone up and down. This year it's up so he's fulfilling the basics of his role. When his shooting goes away, he just doesn't do many useful things. He's just a solid screener. His slow feet on defense and lack of verticality is a difficult thing for a high-quality team to build around. You'd need to surround him with really good defenders, and his offense isn't even close enough good enough to be worth that.
His only "winning" season (42-40 in 2019) was because Orlando built a pretty fearsome defense around Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac. The Vooch-ccentric offense was awful. Then he got to the playoffs, and Marc Gasol wiped him off the face of the earth, holding him to 11ppg on 36% shooting and Orlando indeed have to limit his minutes. To be fair, Gasol made a lot of people look bad in 2019 (Embiid and Giannis for example), and Vucevic did have a good offensive series against Milwaukee the next year. That was basically the high point of his career.
Generally, I dislike random volume offensive players getting all-star berths because, hey, points are good! Guys like Vooch, Julius Randle, D'Angelo Russell, Demar... remind me that sometimes scoring 20ppg is just a role to fill on certain teams. We know these guys aren't serious helps to winning basketball games, but we've indexed off PPG as a metric for so long that we ignore all the proof that these guys are average rather than excellent. A 20ppg scorer in a bad offense is not inherently more valuable than a rebounding specialist grabbing 10rpg on a team that needs someone to gobble boards, or a point guard who gets 7apg mainly passing in set plays to guys coming off pin-downs.
Vooch doesn't really pressure the opponent defense, and he's a welcome sight for opponent offense. I don't see a world in which Vooch can reallyt help a good team, unless the roster contruction is perfect and needs to slot in a pick & pop 5.
This is where we differ in our analysis. You're basically **** on a good offensive player who has played almost exclusively on bad teams and trying to say glorified role players who happen to be on a good team are better. This argument goes down the toilet once these role players are asked to take real responsibility in carrying their teams. And this is why you almost always see NBA teams fall apart when their offensive stars go down.
Only a select few NBA players can consistently put up great numbers, be above average in all facets of the game, and also lead good teams. Teams game plan on how to stop Vucevic, DeRozan, Randle...etc; no team is game planning on how to stop Allen, Gobert, or Draymond Green.
Again, Gobert, Draymond Green, Jrue Holiday, OG Anunoby, Ben Wallace...etc all these guys have gotten exposed when they changed teams, trades were made, or injuries led to them being given them more responsibility in the success of their teams. A great example is Draymond Green in 2019-2020. The team was ravaged by injuries and he managed 8ppg 6reb 6 asst per game. And this is why all these deep metrics are flawed because it omits the fact these are all people who are the product of a system where their flaws are covered up by being surrounded by better players around them.
A lot of people were on KAT for the same kind of stuff being argued about Vucecic, but now no one is saying that because he is destroying in NY. What are we hearing about Gobert and him being a top-10 NBA player/MVP contender and his anchoring Minnesota's D all by himself? All that silliness has stopped now, as it has with Draymond Green.
Again it just sounds like you only understand offense, and specifically scoring.
Teams may not need to plan to stop *insert defensive player here*'s scoring, but they do need to plan how to score on them.
You telling me a defensive guy couldn't assume a larger offensive role doesn't mean much to me. Why would I care about Ben Wallace not being able to replace scoring. His job was to make it really easy to build a top 5 defense. He got injured after he left Detroit, and once he lost his peak athleticism he lost quite a bit of his value, but he remained a defensive booster pack whenever he was on the court for the rest of his days. No idea what you're talking about with your list of players. Gobert has continued to anchor top 10 defenses every year (he's also getting old and that will stop soon, but hey, Minnesota is 7th in defense despite their offensive struggles). OG? Jrue? What are you specifically saying about these guys relative to Vucevic?
Ok but forget defense for a second. I'm not sure Vooch is a more valuable offensive player than Jarrett Allen. Allen is one of the best cutters in the NBA. He's extremely light on his feet and brilliant with his timing. Go too hard after Cleveland's guards, Allen ducks into space and boom dunk. Cleveland's offense has been way better with Allen on the floor for years, even when you separate him from the other starters. He puts pressure on the rim that Vooch really doesn't because he's such a limited athlete.
Vooch is a better shooter, and he's shooting the ball well this year. I don't see what else you like about his game besides seeing that nice 20 and 10 and equating that with all-star.
All kinds of different players, offensive or defensive slanted, need other kinds of players to succeed. Passers need finishers and vice versa. Drivers need spacers. Spacers need kickouts, defensive liabilities need defensive aces, offensively challenged players need scorers/playmakers.
You're making these criticism of defensive players, but not investigating the inverse. What happens when offensive stars lose their defensive support? Detroit didn't make the finals again after Ben Wallace left. They became a better offensive team, but the Wades and Lebron now scored at the basket against Detroit and beat them. What has Toronto done since OG left? Milwaukee after they let go of Jrue to get Dame?
I'm not actually here to **** on offense-only players. I think fans like you overrate them and assume too much value, but I'm not saying they're not good. They're super important parts of the puzzle. The top 5 offensive guys are usually the best player in the league. I'm less interested in the.... 30th best offensive player if he's not a good defender, you know? I don't think that guy definitely carries a more value than a defensive star.
side note: Trading Towns was actually devastating for our offense AND our defense. His spacing and ability to guard forwards was indispensible to what we did. I've been defending Towns for years, despite his deficiencies as a defender when he plays center.
The point I am making isn't so much offense v defense, but "point" players versus "role" players. Just to be clear, when I say "point", I am not talking about scoring; I am talking about being a focal point in the offense.
At the end of the day, given the rules in the league, you're not going to win championships trying to build defensive juggernauts with a group of guys who are as deficient/limited offensively as Ben Wallace, Jarrett Allen, or Rudy Gobert are/were. Under different rules, Miami built a defensive juggernaut in the late 90s and kept getting knocked out in the 1st rd because they couldn't score the basketball.
Specifically Vucevic v Allen, I think it completely depends on the team you have. If you need a focal player, Vucevic is it. If you have 2-3 players who are better/more complete than Allen, you can afford to take on a role player.
To the bolded, you're obviating a few things: Detroit was a group whose sum was greater than its parts. What did Toronto do WITH OG? Nothing. Milwaukee has suffered immensely because of Middleton being injured. Two years ago, Milwaukee lost to Miami with Giannis playing through injury (and with Jrue Holiday). Last year, Milwaukee did not have Giannis in the playoffs. That's way more relevant than Jrue Holiday v Lillard.
To the red, sure. But, again, my larger point is Allen (and others I've named) are role players, not "focal" guys. Vucevic is a flawed player, but he is still good enough to be a focal player in the NBA. He's at 17-10 for his career. I'm not sure how many NBA players have that kind of career average, but the guy has had an excellent career from an individual standpoint.
SA37 wrote: This is where we differ in our analysis. You're basically **** on a good offensive player who has played almost exclusively on bad teams and trying to say glorified role players who happen to be on a good team are better. This argument goes down the toilet once these role players are asked to take real responsibility in carrying their teams. And this is why you almost always see NBA teams fall apart when their offensive stars go down.
Only a select few NBA players can consistently put up great numbers, be above average in all facets of the game, and also lead good teams. Teams game plan on how to stop Vucevic, DeRozan, Randle...etc; no team is game planning on how to stop Allen, Gobert, or Draymond Green.
Again, Gobert, Draymond Green, Jrue Holiday, OG Anunoby, Ben Wallace...etc all these guys have gotten exposed when they changed teams, trades were made, or injuries led to them being given them more responsibility in the success of their teams. A great example is Draymond Green in 2019-2020. The team was ravaged by injuries and he managed 8ppg 6reb 6 asst per game. And this is why all these deep metrics are flawed because it omits the fact these are all people who are the product of a system where their flaws are covered up by being surrounded by better players around them.
A lot of people were on KAT for the same kind of stuff being argued about Vucecic, but now no one is saying that because he is destroying in NY. What are we hearing about Gobert and him being a top-10 NBA player/MVP contender and his anchoring Minnesota's D all by himself? All that silliness has stopped now, as it has with Draymond Green.
Again it just sounds like you only understand offense, and specifically scoring.
Teams may not need to plan to stop *insert defensive player here*'s scoring, but they do need to plan how to score on them.
You telling me a defensive guy couldn't assume a larger offensive role doesn't mean much to me. Why would I care about Ben Wallace not being able to replace scoring. His job was to make it really easy to build a top 5 defense. He got injured after he left Detroit, and once he lost his peak athleticism he lost quite a bit of his value, but he remained a defensive booster pack whenever he was on the court for the rest of his days. No idea what you're talking about with your list of players. Gobert has continued to anchor top 10 defenses every year (he's also getting old and that will stop soon, but hey, Minnesota is 7th in defense despite their offensive struggles). OG? Jrue? What are you specifically saying about these guys relative to Vucevic?
Ok but forget defense for a second. I'm not sure Vooch is a more valuable offensive player than Jarrett Allen. Allen is one of the best cutters in the NBA. He's extremely light on his feet and brilliant with his timing. Go too hard after Cleveland's guards, Allen ducks into space and boom dunk. Cleveland's offense has been way better with Allen on the floor for years, even when you separate him from the other starters. He puts pressure on the rim that Vooch really doesn't because he's such a limited athlete.
Vooch is a better shooter, and he's shooting the ball well this year. I don't see what else you like about his game besides seeing that nice 20 and 10 and equating that with all-star.
All kinds of different players, offensive or defensive slanted, need other kinds of players to succeed. Passers need finishers and vice versa. Drivers need spacers. Spacers need kickouts, defensive liabilities need defensive aces, offensively challenged players need scorers/playmakers.
You're making these criticism of defensive players, but not investigating the inverse. What happens when offensive stars lose their defensive support? Detroit didn't make the finals again after Ben Wallace left. They became a better offensive team, but the Wades and Lebron now scored at the basket against Detroit and beat them. What has Toronto done since OG left? Milwaukee after they let go of Jrue to get Dame?
I'm not actually here to **** on offense-only players. I think fans like you overrate them and assume too much value, but I'm not saying they're not good. They're super important parts of the puzzle. The top 5 offensive guys are usually the best player in the league. I'm less interested in the.... 30th best offensive player if he's not a good defender, you know? I don't think that guy definitely carries a more value than a defensive star.
side note: Trading Towns was actually devastating for our offense AND our defense. His spacing and ability to guard forwards was indispensible to what we did. I've been defending Towns for years, despite his deficiencies as a defender when he plays center.
The point I am making isn't so much offense v defense, but "point" players versus "role" players. Just to be clear, when I say "point", I am not talking about scoring; I am talking about being a focal point in the offense.
At the end of the day, given the rules in the league, you're not going to win championships trying to build defensive juggernauts with a group of guys who are as deficient/limited offensively as Ben Wallace, Jarrett Allen, or Rudy Gobert are/were. Under different rules, Miami built a defensive juggernaut in the late 90s and kept getting knocked out in the 1st rd because they couldn't score the basketball.
Specifically Vucevic v Allen, I think it completely depends on the team you have. If you need a focal player, Vucevic is it. If you have 2-3 players who are better/more complete than Allen, you can afford to take on a role player.
To the bolded, you're obviating a few things: Detroit was a group whose sum was greater than its parts. What did Toronto do WITH OG? Nothing. Milwaukee has suffered immensely because of Middleton being injured. Two years ago, Milwaukee lost to Miami with Giannis playing through injury (and with Jrue Holiday). Last year, Milwaukee did not have Giannis in the playoffs. That's way more relevant than Jrue Holiday v Lillard.
To the red, sure. But, again, my larger point is Allen (and others I've named) are role players, not "focal" guys. Vucevic is a flawed player, but he is still good enough to be a focal player in the NBA. He's at 17-10 for his career. I'm not sure how many NBA players have that kind of career average, but the guy has had an excellent career from an individual standpoint.
Regardless of anything else, I don't agree with you at all that Vucevic is a focal player in the NBA. He gives you a bit of scoring from the center position but is otherwise a very limited player. Vucevic has no track record of really helping an offense in a featured role. In Chicago his role has been as a release valve. In Orlando, he was their most skilled offensive player but those teams were very bad and in their best years had bad offense. You have to make a case that Vooch, as a "focal point", is a good/helpful player.
Cherry picking random players and teams don't make a strong point. Teams have historically needed quite a bit of offense and defense to win champinoships. Most champions are 2-way teams, but we've seen champs that have been offensive or defensive slanted. 2022 Warriors and 2020 Lakers are recent examples of champs that won more with defense than offense. You definitely need both. It basically never happens that a team is awful on one end and wins a championship. No idea why you bring up Miami because tons of teams have lost by being good only on one side of the ball.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."
SA37 wrote:A lot of people were on KAT for the same kind of stuff being argued about Vucecic, but now no one is saying that because he is destroying in NY. What are we hearing about Gobert and him being a top-10 NBA player/MVP contender and his anchoring Minnesota's D all by himself? All that silliness has stopped now, as it has with Draymond Green.
KAT must be motivated and it seemed to be challenging for him to be motivated and focused in Minnesota. A change of systems has worked for him but it's only years one in New York.
Let's see if he stays focused, because that can change quickly, so he can be a positive, like he is now, or he can be a dud like we've seen. It's been enjoyable to see him have success in New York with a better coach and system that works for him.
