[Hoopshype] The 78 greatest defensive players in NBA history

[Ol Roy]

No methodology detected

[Amares]

List is terrible like every "internet" list for casuals, it contains a lot of guards with minimal impact on team defense, don't even mention lazy low effort defenders like Bryant, who is not even close to top 100. Same for wings that were not among top 5 in their era, but somehow were mentioned as top 6 ever.

[Memories]

Duncan is becoming one of the most overrated players ever.

Dude is NOT the 3rd greatest defender EVER. Especially over guys like KG, Wilt, Ben Wallace, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, etc.

Gary Payton is also way too low on that list as well.

[cgf]

Clyde's defense gets so underrated just because they didn't start counting steals until he was exiting his prime.

[bledredwine]

Draymond ahead of Jordan is stupid, and KG/Duncan are too high. As great as they were, players like D Rob were more dominant defensive presences and I'm surprised they're ranked like this.

I'd also bring Eaton up. Below Giannis is criminal.
I usually favor centers, but if you consider defensive rebounds important and part of the equation, then this is a great move to place Rodman that high.

Jordan and Pipp should be quite close. Pipp is ATG but I doubt he's ahead of (peak) Dwight in impact. Career? Sure.
Both Jordan and Pipp should be below Dwight and in similar spots. During their careers, they were neck and neck in defensive voting, would take turns guarding the best player, Jordan being better the first three peat and Pipp clearly the second three peat.

Bulls fans- We were so damned spoiled watching these teams... that excitement on both ends of the court is unparalleled and we are lucky having witnessed it

[cupcakesnake]

The list feels completely random after the top 8.
It doesn't feel like they put much work into this list.

Players I'd have higher: Wilt, Thurmond, Robinson, Marion, Kidd, Marc Gasol, Jerry West, Nate McMillan, Doug Christie

Players I'd have lower: Dennis Rodman, Dwight, MJ, Payton, Giannis, Kareem, Camby, Shaq, Kobe, Rondo.
(not saying any of these guys aren't good defenders, just that I'd have them lower than hoopshype.)

[cupcakesnake]

So just to put something down myself rather than just being critical of their list, if I take my own personal DPOY shares without trying to do anything more sophisticated such as factoring in era difficulty, here's the top of my list:

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
(tie) George Mikan
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. David Robinson
6. Draymond Green
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mark Eaton
(tie) LeBron James
10. Dennis Johnson
(tie) Nate Thurmond

Brief notes:

- Nate Thurmond is hurt considerably by playing in an era with Russell & Wilt (and Wilt is getting hurt by playing with Russell & Nate for that matter).

- To be clear I definitely would not consider Mikan to be a top tier defender in later eras, but his defensive dominance when he played was a big deal.

- Yup, I have Draymond as the top defender from this era.

- I actually do consider KG to be a more talented defender than Duncan, but his Minny career holds back his accomplishment compared to someone like Duncan who just in the perfect spot.

- Eaton was absolutely a GOAT tier defensive player for an era where players didn't shoot from the perimeter. Now I don't think he'd stick in the NBA. (By contrast, I think Mikan would at least be a starter-level player.)

- Yup, I have LeBron as the GOAT non-big defender by career.

- DJ's inclusion is weird. There's just this era between Walton & Eaton where there's a massive dearth of elite defensive bigs. Were I to rank actual impact, DJ would certainly be lower...but I do think he's got a solid case as a peak guard defender.

So your DPOY shares would punish good defenders for playing in the same era yeah? I'm assuming no KG or Big Ben because those shares went to Tim Duncan? I like DJ! But to see him and Lebron in a top 10 with no Wallace or KG just makes me wonder how useful this list is. I guess it work as a best of their era, but not as a top 10 ever.

[cupcakesnake]

My top 15, last time I made a list (can't remember when)

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Ben Wallace
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
David Robinson
Nate Thurmond
Dikembe Mutombo
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Wilt Chamberlain
Scottie Pippen
Patrick Ewing
Marc Gasol
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[Xatticus]

These lists are generally trash because historically a guard can't touch the defensive impact a big man has. Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen, MJ and Gary Payton above Anthony Davis? Wrong. Tony Allen averaged 22 MPG across his career. No freaking way should he be ranked 22. He didn't play enough to have that impact.
Centers and PFs > SFs > SGs > PGs. The list should more heavily reflect that.

In general this is a thing that just makes these lists such a challenge. A list completely dominated by 78 bigs probably gets no clicks, so they're trying to do some hand-wavy thing which slips perimeter guys in without it seeming too egregious.

For that reason I'm generally not going to knock them for including perimeter guys...but will knock them depending on the perimeter guys they pick.

It shouldn't be a list of bigs. Nobody would ever put five bigs on the floor to protect a lead on the final possession.

It isn't the fact that bigs are superior defenders that gives them superior impact metrics, but rather that their roles afford them the opportunity to have a more significant impact. You can't measure a player's defensive value independent from their role because the replacement level is going to vary between roles. A 97th percentile wing defender is almost certainly a better defender than a 75th percentile rim protector because it is much easier to replace the contributions of the latter than it is the former. You'd need to consider positional variance to make a strong argument for one over the other, but these lists almost universally overrate rim protectors.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Kareem over Wilt/D Rob is kinda wack

[Jakay]

I don't really have any investment in him as a player, but I feel like Caruso is better than a swatch of the field here. I think you could make a case for Lowry too.

Actually current OKC with zero representation just seems wrong on some level.

[Doctor MJ]

So just to put something down myself rather than just being critical of their list, if I take my own personal DPOY shares without trying to do anything more sophisticated such as factoring in era difficulty, here's the top of my list:

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
(tie) George Mikan
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. David Robinson
6. Draymond Green
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mark Eaton
(tie) LeBron James
10. Dennis Johnson
(tie) Nate Thurmond

Brief notes:

- Nate Thurmond is hurt considerably by playing in an era with Russell & Wilt (and Wilt is getting hurt by playing with Russell & Nate for that matter).

- To be clear I definitely would not consider Mikan to be a top tier defender in later eras, but his defensive dominance when he played was a big deal.

- Yup, I have Draymond as the top defender from this era.

- I actually do consider KG to be a more talented defender than Duncan, but his Minny career holds back his accomplishment compared to someone like Duncan who just in the perfect spot.

- Eaton was absolutely a GOAT tier defensive player for an era where players didn't shoot from the perimeter. Now I don't think he'd stick in the NBA. (By contrast, I think Mikan would at least be a starter-level player.)

- Yup, I have LeBron as the GOAT non-big defender by career.

- DJ's inclusion is weird. There's just this era between Walton & Eaton where there's a massive dearth of elite defensive bigs. Were I to rank actual impact, DJ would certainly be lower...but I do think he's got a solid case as a peak guard defender.

So your DPOY shares would punish good defenders for playing in the same era yeah? I'm assuming no KG or Big Ben because those shares went to Tim Duncan? I like DJ! But to see him and Lebron in a top 10 with no Wallace or KG just makes me wonder how useful this list is. I guess it work as a best of their era, but not as a top 10 ever.

In general yes, if you played against tougher competition, we'd expect it to underrate you.

I wouldn't say this is really the issue for KG though. There the issue is mostly just that Minny's defense was a mess and one guy can only do so much. That's unfair, but it is what it is.

To be clear: I'm not saying people can't or shouldn't try to evaluate players based on how good they are in the abstract, but your ability to contribute value is always going to be contextually dependent.

Re: how useful is this? Eye of the beholder, but aside from the fact that it is just intended as a starting point for serious basketball analysis, do consider that it's built year-by-year the sum totals are just whatever they are. I like going through this process because it makes me honestly ask myself what was going on in each year in history.

[Doctor MJ]

These lists are generally trash because historically a guard can't touch the defensive impact a big man has. Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen, MJ and Gary Payton above Anthony Davis? Wrong. Tony Allen averaged 22 MPG across his career. No freaking way should he be ranked 22. He didn't play enough to have that impact.
Centers and PFs > SFs > SGs > PGs. The list should more heavily reflect that.

In general this is a thing that just makes these lists such a challenge. A list completely dominated by 78 bigs probably gets no clicks, so they're trying to do some hand-wavy thing which slips perimeter guys in without it seeming too egregious.

For that reason I'm generally not going to knock them for including perimeter guys...but will knock them depending on the perimeter guys they pick.

It shouldn't be a list of bigs. Nobody would ever put five bigs on the floor to protect a lead on the final possession.

It isn't the fact that bigs are superior defenders that gives them superior impact metrics, but rather that their roles afford them the opportunity to have a more significant impact. You can't measure a player's defensive value independent from their role because the replacement level is going to vary between roles. A 97th percentile wing defender is almost certainly a better defender than a 75th percentile rim protector because it is much easier to replace the contributions of the latter than it is the former. You'd need to consider positional variance to make a strong argument for one over the other, but these lists almost universally overrate rim protectors.

So first let me acknowledge that I don't think you're totally disagreeing with me. We both value a list that includes perimeter guys.

Re: Harder to replace a 97th percentile (relative to NBA norms) wing defender than a 75th percentile rim protector. Harder to find another 97th percentile wing defender certainly, but that doesn't mean that the drop off from the 97th percentile wing defender to replacement level is bigger than a 75th percentile rim protector.

When you point out that you can't have 5 bigs together there's something to that...but keep in mind that basically all players now are "big" size based on how basketball was originally played, and the only reason they aren't even bigger is because of offensive value is disproportionately in smaller players.

It's true of course that so long as small offensive players are so important, you'll want to have man defenders that are pretty close to them in size...but there are just so, so, so many more of these smaller people in the world. Like quite literally, there are LOTS of players who would be great perimeter man defenders in the NBA but don't get to the NBA because they lack the offensive skills (and also may be lacking in the broader court awareness needed for modern team defense).

I think people need to not forget how rare extremely tall people actually are in the populace. As a 6'9" guy who's been known to go to festivals with 100K people, I often see no one as tall as me. I would say it's likely not an exaggeration to say there are more than 100 times as many people who are, say, 6'3" than people who are 6'9", and this is where the 97th percentile thing gets tricky.

If you're in the 97th percentile of talent in a group that has is 1 in 100 by size, this actually makes you less of an outlier than people who are in the 75th percentile of talent in a group that is 1 in 100,000 by size. Doesn't mean the bigger outlier is the better basketball player of course - because the same statement is true about soccer where the needs of the game are so different. But to the extent a sport depends on extreme height - which basketball has done for about 80 years now - there just aren't that many super-tall people.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I grew up admiring Gary Payton, but wasn't Kidd in their time, and Jrue in this one, every bit as impactful and versatile as defenders? In any case, I feel like they are too low relative to Glove.

[Bergmaniac]

I grew up admiring Gary Payton, but wasn't Kidd in their time, and Jrue in this one, every bit as impactful and versatile as defenders? In any case, I feel like they are too low relative to Glove.

Kidd should be the highest ranked guard on this list IMO.

[Optms]

Duncan is becoming one of the most overrated players ever.

Dude is NOT the 3rd greatest defender EVER. Especially over guys like KG, Wilt, Ben Wallace, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, etc.

Gary Payton is also way too low on that list as well.

Ben Wallace was the greatest defender of his time. Period.

Duncan and KG were great but not GOAT level great. Terrible list. Kidding way down in the 40s? So much fail here.

[cupcakesnake]

So just to put something down myself rather than just being critical of their list, if I take my own personal DPOY shares without trying to do anything more sophisticated such as factoring in era difficulty, here's the top of my list:

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
(tie) George Mikan
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. David Robinson
6. Draymond Green
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mark Eaton
(tie) LeBron James
10. Dennis Johnson
(tie) Nate Thurmond

Brief notes:

- Nate Thurmond is hurt considerably by playing in an era with Russell & Wilt (and Wilt is getting hurt by playing with Russell & Nate for that matter).

- To be clear I definitely would not consider Mikan to be a top tier defender in later eras, but his defensive dominance when he played was a big deal.

- Yup, I have Draymond as the top defender from this era.

- I actually do consider KG to be a more talented defender than Duncan, but his Minny career holds back his accomplishment compared to someone like Duncan who just in the perfect spot.

- Eaton was absolutely a GOAT tier defensive player for an era where players didn't shoot from the perimeter. Now I don't think he'd stick in the NBA. (By contrast, I think Mikan would at least be a starter-level player.)

- Yup, I have LeBron as the GOAT non-big defender by career.

- DJ's inclusion is weird. There's just this era between Walton & Eaton where there's a massive dearth of elite defensive bigs. Were I to rank actual impact, DJ would certainly be lower...but I do think he's got a solid case as a peak guard defender.

So your DPOY shares would punish good defenders for playing in the same era yeah? I'm assuming no KG or Big Ben because those shares went to Tim Duncan? I like DJ! But to see him and Lebron in a top 10 with no Wallace or KG just makes me wonder how useful this list is. I guess it work as a best of their era, but not as a top 10 ever.

In general yes, if you played against tougher competition, we'd expect it to underrate you.

I wouldn't say this is really the issue for KG though. There the issue is mostly just that Minny's defense was a mess and one guy can only do so much. That's unfair, but it is what it is.

To be clear: I'm not saying people can't or shouldn't try to evaluate players based on how good they are in the abstract, but your ability to contribute value is always going to be contextually dependent.

Re: how useful is this? Eye of the beholder, but aside from the fact that it is just intended as a starting point for serious basketball analysis, do consider that it's built year-by-year the sum totals are just whatever they are. I like going through this process because it makes me honestly ask myself what was going on in each year in history.

I don't evaluate defense as a series of achievements. I try to get an idea of their impact in whatever team context they end up on. Some players are more complicated to evaluate, if we never saw them on a good defensive team, or on a bad one.

With KG, I feel perfectly comfortable we saw enough to evaluate his defense and for him to have a case as having defensive GOAT ability and performance. 2008 was a nice exclamation point if you like to see defensive performance correlating with great team defense. Even after the 2009 injury, KG continued to anchor elite defenses in Boston for several more seasons. It basically just confirmed what the on/off based stuff knew about KG already in Minnesota when he was lifting trash offensive-slanted rosters into the territory of average.

For me with KG, it's the insane scheme versatility he affords that gives him an edge against some of the other GOAT candidates. He can be an elite rim protector if you need, but you can also stick him at the nail and/or use him to trap the ball. The combination of mobility, motor, and length is just unparalleled.

I think there's a good argument for Duncan over KG. Duncan's stronger body gave him and edge in the paint. Duncan also has other wordly focus. I have both of them in my top 5, and don't have strong feelings that one of them is better. That era where your giving Duncan his DPOY shares, is an era where I think there might have been 3x Defensive goat candidates with Wallace and KG. I have all three in my top 5.

[dhsilv2]

Not the worst list...I'd say that got a lot of the right people. The ranking itself makes little sense. Wilt at 11? Really? If it's about peak, Mookie is way off. Career? well anyway.

Wilt was a monster defensive player, arguably better on that end than on offense.

Don't think it's arguable. He just flat out was better on defense than offense. Wasn't close.

[Doctor MJ]

So your DPOY shares would punish good defenders for playing in the same era yeah? I'm assuming no KG or Big Ben because those shares went to Tim Duncan? I like DJ! But to see him and Lebron in a top 10 with no Wallace or KG just makes me wonder how useful this list is. I guess it work as a best of their era, but not as a top 10 ever.

In general yes, if you played against tougher competition, we'd expect it to underrate you.

I wouldn't say this is really the issue for KG though. There the issue is mostly just that Minny's defense was a mess and one guy can only do so much. That's unfair, but it is what it is.

To be clear: I'm not saying people can't or shouldn't try to evaluate players based on how good they are in the abstract, but your ability to contribute value is always going to be contextually dependent.

Re: how useful is this? Eye of the beholder, but aside from the fact that it is just intended as a starting point for serious basketball analysis, do consider that it's built year-by-year the sum totals are just whatever they are. I like going through this process because it makes me honestly ask myself what was going on in each year in history.

I don't evaluate defense as a series of achievements. I try to get an idea of their impact in whatever team context they end up on. Some players are more complicated to evaluate, if we never saw them on a good defensive team, or on a bad one.

With KG, I feel perfectly comfortable we saw enough to evaluate his defense and for him to have a case as having defensive GOAT ability and performance. 2008 was a nice exclamation point if you like to see defensive performance correlating with great team defense. Even after the 2009 injury, KG continued to anchor elite defenses in Boston for several more seasons. It basically just confirmed what the on/off based stuff knew about KG already in Minnesota when he was lifting trash offensive-slanted rosters into the territory of average.

For me with KG, it's the insane scheme versatility he affords that gives him an edge against some of the other GOAT candidates. He can be an elite rim protector if you need, but you can also stick him at the nail and/or use him to trap the ball. The combination of mobility, motor, and length is just unparalleled.

I think there's a good argument for Duncan over KG. Duncan's stronger body gave him and edge in the paint. Duncan also has other wordly focus. I have both of them in my top 5, and don't have strong feelings that one of them is better. That era where your giving Duncan his DPOY shares, is an era where I think there might have been 3x Defensive goat candidates with Wallace and KG. I have all three in my top 5.

If you're looking to focus on how good you think a guy was, then I'm right there with you ranking KG above Duncan, but that were the sort of ranking they were making, wouldn't we expect Bill Walton be on the list? I guess I just assumed they were focused on career greateness but maybe I made an assumption I shouldn't've.

[TheNG]

LeBron does not belong there