What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

[70sFan]

Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.


It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

Jordan isn't close to clear basketball GOAT, let alone this bullsh*t you just made up.

[EmpireFalls]

At bare minimum: be by far the best player in the NBA until 2030 with the requisite titles and accolades, and then add some longevity following.

[JustBuzzin]

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

I do think he has a legit case to be considered the most skilled center of all time.

FOr me that was always Hakeem, and it might still be, not because Hakeem was as non positional as Jokic, but because he was also a monster defensively.

And because We can make a legit debate that Hakeem, or Shaq, or Kareem, or a few other centers of the past are better than Jokic means he isnt in the goat debate at this time. You have to be the undisputed best of all time at your position to be in the conversation as a goat.

Same reason why Magic and Bird are not in those Convos, they are not clearly the best at their positions of all time.

I think he can be the best center to ever play. But when you mention GOAT that automatically comes with multiple championships and long-term success.

He can get there, but right now is way to early to put him in the same conversation as MJ and LeBron imo.

[Larry_Russell]

Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.


It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

Jordan isn't close to clear basketball GOAT, let alone this bullsh*t you just made up.

Jordan is clearly the Goat of Baskball.


Only 1 NBA player has EVER in the history of the NBA do this:
MVP
F-MVP
Scoring Leader
NBA-1st
DEF-1st

Jordan did it 4 times....and it easily is arguable it should have been 6 times.
(Sorry Barkley and Hakeem in 93 and Malone in 97....Mike should have won those 2 years as well)

[hardenASG13]

If he wins MVPs and championships while posting record breaking offensive seasons, what does it matter?

Wayne Gretzky is considered the GOAT hockey player of all-time and he wasn't known for being a great defensive player, but his offense was so dominant and he shattered pretty much every record in the book, it didn't matter.

i know nothing about hockey other than Ovechkin will soon break Gretzky's scoring record, but I would imagine that the comparison here is not a good one in terms of how the sports are played where Hockey games are usually single digit scores and the transition across the ice looks way different in the NBA where defense and offense are much more clearly choreographed

Regardless, you look at the unanimous top 3 of all time in LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan and all 3 had major stretches of their careers where they were the best defensive player on the planet while ALSO being the best offensive player on the planet (less so for Kareem, but he was good enough to be 1st team in his early prime and was obviously an elite shot blocker).

And once you get past that criteria there still remains the obvious elephant in the room which is the sheer winning and longevity that all 3 of those guys had which Jokic has yet to get to.

Its hard to compare Hockey and Basketball. 2 different animals. Rarely is a player a monster on both sides of the ice so to speak.

And Hockey is a bruiser sport, Wayne is was a finesse player. Very finesse. You dont send that guy out forechecking.

Ovechkin, great for him. 8 games to score 8 goals to TIE Gretzky. Alex currently sitting at 1600 career points good for 11th on the alltime list. 41 points behind Sakic, 64 behind Crosby.

1257 behind Wayne.

If we are using Wayne as a comparison for Jokic, then Jokic has a long ways to go. Wayne was so far ahead of the competition when he was playing that no one could dispute at all about his brilliance and greatness.

Jokic there is a debate year after year about who is better than him. On any given season there is a debate of 4 or 5 guys as being superior.

Jokic has never once led the league in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, 3pt%, only in advanced stats is he a league best.
Jokic's career best WS was bettered 8 times in just the past 20 years (jordan beat it 8 times as the league best)
Jokics career best OWS was bettered 9 times in the past 20 years (Jordan beat it 7 times)
Jokics career best WS/48, only surpassed 3 times in last 20 years.
Jokics career best VORP was only beat 1 time in last 20 years.

SO in an era of maximizing analytics and maximizing efficiency even Jokics advanced numbers arent crazy when stacked against the last 20 years.

Hockey is like soccer, there are offensive and defensive positions. Defenseman in hockey play in the back, while forwards do the scoring. The Gretzky comparison has no relevance to basketball, where guys are playing both ends each possession.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Michael won 3 titles at 30, Jokic is already behind the 8 ball. He's going to be this eras Wilt, he'll be lucky if he gets another title, but he'll have all these statistical anomaly records.

[PD28]

Needs 4 titles to join this conversation. Very doubtful he gets more than one more in his career.

[Big J]

Longevity is a lot less impactful than peak, and by peak we are talking about accomplishments, winning, and rings, not just stats. That is why MJ is, and will always be the GOAT.

[TheGeneral99]

i know nothing about hockey other than Ovechkin will soon break Gretzky's scoring record, but I would imagine that the comparison here is not a good one in terms of how the sports are played where Hockey games are usually single digit scores and the transition across the ice looks way different in the NBA where defense and offense are much more clearly choreographed

Regardless, you look at the unanimous top 3 of all time in LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan and all 3 had major stretches of their careers where they were the best defensive player on the planet while ALSO being the best offensive player on the planet (less so for Kareem, but he was good enough to be 1st team in his early prime and was obviously an elite shot blocker).

And once you get past that criteria there still remains the obvious elephant in the room which is the sheer winning and longevity that all 3 of those guys had which Jokic has yet to get to.

Its hard to compare Hockey and Basketball. 2 different animals. Rarely is a player a monster on both sides of the ice so to speak.

And Hockey is a bruiser sport, Wayne is was a finesse player. Very finesse. You dont send that guy out forechecking.

Ovechkin, great for him. 8 games to score 8 goals to TIE Gretzky. Alex currently sitting at 1600 career points good for 11th on the alltime list. 41 points behind Sakic, 64 behind Crosby.

1257 behind Wayne.

If we are using Wayne as a comparison for Jokic, then Jokic has a long ways to go. Wayne was so far ahead of the competition when he was playing that no one could dispute at all about his brilliance and greatness.

Jokic there is a debate year after year about who is better than him. On any given season there is a debate of 4 or 5 guys as being superior.

Jokic has never once led the league in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, 3pt%, only in advanced stats is he a league best.
Jokic's career best WS was bettered 8 times in just the past 20 years (jordan beat it 8 times as the league best)
Jokics career best OWS was bettered 9 times in the past 20 years (Jordan beat it 7 times)
Jokics career best WS/48, only surpassed 3 times in last 20 years.
Jokics career best VORP was only beat 1 time in last 20 years.

SO in an era of maximizing analytics and maximizing efficiency even Jokics advanced numbers arent crazy when stacked against the last 20 years.

Hockey is like soccer, there are offensive and defensive positions. Defenseman in hockey play in the back, while forwards do the scoring. The Gretzky comparison has no relevance to basketball, where guys are playing both ends each possession.

LOL!!??

Are you saying that 'forwards' don't play any defense? Are you joking me? Forwards need to back check, forwards need to cover their man on D, forwards need to play defense the entire game. A hockey arena is not big and the game is fast, forwards need to play defense all the ****...holy **** this is ignorant. What do you think happens when the puck is the defensive zone? Forwards don't play D? Forwards don't help D, who do you think is blocking all the shots? Forwards block 90% of the shots.

When you have a powerplay who do you think are taking majority of the shots? The defenseman.

There are more offensiveman defenseman as well. Cale Makar, the defenseman for Colorado is one of the top goal scorers in the entire league and finished top 10 in points last season. He's currently top 10 in the league right now. A forward like Datsyuk was considered one of the best defensive players in the NHL during his prime. Bobby Orr literally led the league in scoring for multiple years during his prime as a defenseman.

Forwards are more similar to perimeter NBA players while defenseman are more similar to power forwards and centers, but everyone in hockey plays offense and defense. It's more about positioning. Defenseman are like centers that play more inside and guard the paint while forwards are similar to perimeter players that take more shots and guard the perimeter.

The NHL has a ton of defenseman that are high scoring players and considered more offensive defenseman while many teams have forwards that are considered great defensive players.

Ridiculous argument. I never heard of anyone who watched hockey that thinks that forwards don't play defense and defenseman don't play offense. WTF?

[TheGeneral99]

Nothing.

He's already entering that end of prime stage and only has 1 championship. Unless he's demanding a trade to a real contender I don't see many championships in his future.

Also do you guys realize LeBron is setting a new record everytime he makes a shot. The current scoring leader of all-time is showing no signs of slowing down as a player.

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

He doesn't need another 4-5 MVPs and 3-4 championships.

Another 1-2 MVPs and another 1-2 championships, combined with longevity and building up his all-time stats will put him the conversation.

Lebron has 4 MVPs and 4 championships and is considered arguably the GOAT or #2...so if Jokic finishes with 4-5 MVPs and 2-3 championships, that would put him right in the conversation.

If Jokic plays until his late 30s he likely finishes top 10 in points and top 5 in assists and rebounds, which is something no other player has done.

[M2J]

Jokic is a special offensive player, not the 1 thing holding back Denver from being the favorites to win it all is Jokic defense

[TheGeneral99]

Jokic is a special offensive player, not the 1 thing holding back Denver from being the favorites to win it all is Jokic defense

The thing holding Denver back from being the favorites is that Jokic has never played with another superstar. Sure, Murray plays like an all-star at times but he's inconsistent, routinely injured and never even made an all-star team.

Is Murray at the level of any of the guys below?

Jordan had prime Pippen and also Rodman for a brief period.

Lebron played with prime Wade, prime Bosh, prime Kyrie and Love, and prime AD.

Magic played with Kareem.

Bird played with McHale and Parish.

What would happen if Jokic played with a prime Kobe or a prime Steph, or a prime Lillard, or a prime Kyrie or a prime Tatum or a prime Shai etc.?

The Nuggets to me feel like the late 2000s Mavericks where you had a superstar in Dirk who was dominant as hell but no other star and a decent, but not great supporting cast around him.

[hardenASG13]

Its hard to compare Hockey and Basketball. 2 different animals. Rarely is a player a monster on both sides of the ice so to speak.

And Hockey is a bruiser sport, Wayne is was a finesse player. Very finesse. You dont send that guy out forechecking.

Ovechkin, great for him. 8 games to score 8 goals to TIE Gretzky. Alex currently sitting at 1600 career points good for 11th on the alltime list. 41 points behind Sakic, 64 behind Crosby.

1257 behind Wayne.

If we are using Wayne as a comparison for Jokic, then Jokic has a long ways to go. Wayne was so far ahead of the competition when he was playing that no one could dispute at all about his brilliance and greatness.

Jokic there is a debate year after year about who is better than him. On any given season there is a debate of 4 or 5 guys as being superior.

Jokic has never once led the league in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, 3pt%, only in advanced stats is he a league best.
Jokic's career best WS was bettered 8 times in just the past 20 years (jordan beat it 8 times as the league best)
Jokics career best OWS was bettered 9 times in the past 20 years (Jordan beat it 7 times)
Jokics career best WS/48, only surpassed 3 times in last 20 years.
Jokics career best VORP was only beat 1 time in last 20 years.

SO in an era of maximizing analytics and maximizing efficiency even Jokics advanced numbers arent crazy when stacked against the last 20 years.

Hockey is like soccer, there are offensive and defensive positions. Defenseman in hockey play in the back, while forwards do the scoring. The Gretzky comparison has no relevance to basketball, where guys are playing both ends each possession.

LOL!!??

Are you saying that 'forwards' don't play any defense? Are you joking me? Forwards need to back check, forwards need to cover their man on D, forwards need to play defense the entire game. A hockey arena is not big and the game is fast, forwards need to play defense all the ****...holy **** this is ignorant. What do you think happens when the puck is the defensive zone? Forwards don't play D? Forwards don't help D, who do you think is blocking all the shots? Forwards block 90% of the shots.

When you have a powerplay who do you think are taking majority of the shots? The defenseman.

There are more offensiveman defenseman as well. Cale Makar, the defenseman for Colorado is one of the top goal scorers in the entire league and finished top 10 in points last season. He's currently top 10 in the league right now. A forward like Datsyuk was considered one of the best defensive players in the NHL during his prime. Bobby Orr literally led the league in scoring for multiple years during his prime as a defenseman.

Forwards are more similar to perimeter NBA players while defenseman are more similar to power forwards and centers, but everyone in hockey plays offense and defense. It's more about positioning. Defenseman are like centers that play more inside and guard the paint while forwards are similar to perimeter players that take more shots and guard the perimeter.

The NHL has a ton of defenseman that are high scoring players and considered more offensive defenseman while many teams have forwards that are considered great defensive players.

Ridiculous argument. I never heard of anyone who watched hockey that thinks that forwards don't play defense and defenseman don't play offense. WTF?

Of course they play some defense, and defensive players play some offense chill out. I didnt say they didnt. You could've made that 5 paragraphs shorter with less swearing. But saying Wayne Gretzky wasn't known as a defender in hockey does not apply to a basketball discussion. Its two completely separate things. There are literally players called defenseman in Hockey. Gretzky wasn't one of them.If you're that angry about pointing out the obvious differences in offensive/defensive expectations and roles in Hockey and Basketball, i fear how you navigate day to day activities.

Of course Gretzky, an offensive player, wasn't known for his defense. Not many prolific forwards in Hockey are. They are known for their scoring because that's what their role is on the team.

[M2J]

Jokic is a special offensive player, not the 1 thing holding back Denver from being the favorites to win it all is Jokic defense

The thing holding Denver back from being the favorites is that Jokic has never played with another superstar. Sure, Murray plays like an all-star at times but he's inconsistent, routinely injured and never even made an all-star team.

Is Murray at the level of any of the guys below?

Jordan had prime Pippen and also Rodman for a brief period.

Lebron played with prime Wade, prime Bosh, prime Kyrie and Love, and prime AD.

Magic played with Kareem.

Bird played with McHale and Parish.

What would happen if Jokic played with a prime Kobe or a prime Steph, or a prime Lillard, or a prime Kyrie or a prime Tatum or a prime Shai etc.?

Some of you people need to get off of Jokic's pants. Jokic plays with 3 other stars (not super) in Murray, Porter, Gordon.... Plus Westbrook and Braun are starring in their roles (as they've had in the past with KCP, etc.). Plus Murray for multiple postseasons, not just the title year was amongst the very best playoff performers in the league with superstar play.

Plus theit offense is actively elite in no small part due to Jokic, but I want to be very specific when I say this. Fans and media and even the league offices don't value defense and even if they had a defensive stud added on here, you wouldn't consider him a superstar...sooooo a superstar for superstar sake wouldn't make them the favorites. They're a strength in numbers team.

[TFJava]

Win 5 move championships with zero finals looses. Also add a couple move regular season MVPs.

[70sFan]

Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.


It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

Jordan isn't close to clear basketball GOAT, let alone this bullsh*t you just made up.

Jordan is clearly the Goat of Baskball.


Only 1 NBA player has EVER in the history of the NBA do this:
MVP
F-MVP
Scoring Leader
NBA-1st
DEF-1st

Jordan did it 4 times....and it easily is arguable it should have been 6 times.
(Sorry Barkley and Hakeem in 93 and Malone in 97....Mike should have won those 2 years as well)

These are all completely arbitrary criteria. Jordan's resume doesn't touch Bill Russell.

[Optms]

6 more titles or 3 more while playing into his 40s at the level Lebron is playing at currently. Gotta dominate the sport or dominate with GOAT level longevity. That's the bar.

[TheNG]

No player without 5 rings and 5 MVPs can enter the discussion.
It's between Jordan, Kareem and Russell.

BUT:
In the imaginary world where the LeBrons of the world have a case, Jokic also have a case.

[Larry_Russell]

Jordan isn't close to clear basketball GOAT, let alone this bullsh*t you just made up.

Jordan is clearly the Goat of Baskball.


Only 1 NBA player has EVER in the history of the NBA do this:
MVP
F-MVP
Scoring Leader
NBA-1st
DEF-1st

Jordan did it 4 times....and it easily is arguable it should have been 6 times.
(Sorry Barkley and Hakeem in 93 and Malone in 97....Mike should have won those 2 years as well)

These are all completely arbitrary criteria. Jordan's resume doesn't touch Bill Russell.

Surpasses in some, doesnt in others.

Bill won more titles, thays for certain but wasnt anywhere near michael offensively.

Michael was far closer to bill defensively than bill was to jordan offensively.

I have bill as the 2nd greatest nba player of all time.

[JustBuzzin]

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

He doesn't need another 4-5 MVPs and 3-4 championships.

Another 1-2 MVPs and another 1-2 championships, combined with longevity and building up his all-time stats will put him the conversation.

Lebron has 4 MVPs and 4 championships and is considered arguably the GOAT or #2...so if Jokic finishes with 4-5 MVPs and 2-3 championships, that would put him right in the conversation.

If Jokic plays until his late 30s he likely finishes top 10 in points and top 5 in assists and rebounds, which is something no other player has done.

You Jokic fanboys are hilarious. Well when he accomplishes all of that then we can have the discussion. Right now he's not in the discussion.