John Stockton vs Chris Paul all time who you voting?

[dhsilv2]

Stockton was the more impactful player if you watched each of them play. I might also put Steve Nash and Jason Kidd ahead of Chris Paul, tbh. Chris Paul didn't define and lead his team like these other lead guards, notwithstanding CP's impact in Phoenix.

How did CP3 not lead his teams? He was the clear best player on the clippers which can't be said for Stockton. There was more debate about Nash vs Amare (which was wrong) than with CP3 on the clippers or Hornets.

[bonita_the_frog]

Stockton was the more impactful player if you watched each of them play. I might also put Steve Nash and Jason Kidd ahead of Chris Paul, tbh. Chris Paul didn't define and lead his team like these other lead guards, notwithstanding CP's impact in Phoenix.

How did CP3 not lead his teams? He was the clear best player on the clippers which can't be said for Stockton. There was more debate about Nash vs Amare (which was wrong) than with CP3 on the clippers or Hornets.

But Blake Griffin dominated the scoring for Clippers.
Griffin averaged 23.5ppg in the 2014 playoffs (13 games).
Griffin averaged 25.5ppg 12.7rpg 6.1apg in the 2015 playoffs (14 games).
Those were the 2 deepest playoff runs for the Clippers.

[dhsilv2]

Stockton was the more impactful player if you watched each of them play. I might also put Steve Nash and Jason Kidd ahead of Chris Paul, tbh. Chris Paul didn't define and lead his team like these other lead guards, notwithstanding CP's impact in Phoenix.

How did CP3 not lead his teams? He was the clear best player on the clippers which can't be said for Stockton. There was more debate about Nash vs Amare (which was wrong) than with CP3 on the clippers or Hornets.

But Blake Griffin dominated the scoring for Clippers.
BG averaged 23.5ppg in the 2014 playoffs (13 games), and 25.5ppg in the 2015 playoffs (14 games).

Dominated is two playoff runs? And 19.8 vs 23.5 and 22.1 vs 25.5?

2014 - 4th quarter only CP3 6.3 vs 6.1
2015 - 4th quarter only 6.4 vs 4.2

So even there CP3 outscored Blake in the 4th quarters as was often the case. He'd setup teammates for 3 quarters and take over in the 4th.

[bledredwine]

Stockton, easy.

Why? Chris Paul got his butt whipped by at least half of his allstar PG matchups in the playoffs. Stockton is much more reliable and straight up better at what you want a PG to do.

[bonita_the_frog]

Dominated is two playoff runs? And 19.8 vs 23.5 and 22.1 vs 25.5?

2014 - 4th quarter only CP3 6.3 vs 6.1
2015 - 4th quarter only 6.4 vs 4.2

So even there CP3 outscored Blake in the 4th quarters as was often the case. He'd setup teammates for 3 quarters and take over in the 4th.

6.3 vs. 6.1 in 4th quarter scoring? That is as good as EQUAL.
Even 6.4 vs 4.2 is close.

2012 Clippers Playoffs = 11 games
2013 Clippers Playoffs = 6 games
2014 Clippers Playoffs = 13 games
2015 Clippers Playoffs = 14 games
2016 Clippers Playoffs = 4 games
2017 Clippers Playoffs = 7 games

The deepest playoff runs:
2012 = Griffin 19.1 points per game, Paul 17.6
2014 = Griffin 23.5 points per game, Paul 19.8
2015 = Griffin 25.5 points per game, Paul 22.1

[The Laker Kid]

Tough decision. Both are ringless

[Kilroy]

Stockton stays vastly underrated…. This shouldn’t be close.

[bonita_the_frog]

Tough decision. Both are ringless

But Stockton can claim to have 2 rings because he lost to MJ in the Finals twice.

[tsherkin]

Tough decision. Both are ringless

But Stockton can claim to have 2 rings because he lost to MJ in the Finals twice.

That doesn't make any sense.

Stockton stays vastly underrated…. This shouldn’t be close.

Why, though?

Is he really underrated, being compared to one of the greatest point guards we've seen in the last four and a half decades? A guy who himself has outstanding longevity, and was a brilliant playmaker and a much better scoring threat? Who is also ringless, lacks an MVP and was never close to being the best player in the league?

We can respect Stockton without having to deify him. He was a very good player, but he also had limitations and it isn't heresy to acknowledge them relative to another high-end player at the same position.

[dhsilv2]

Dominated is two playoff runs? And 19.8 vs 23.5 and 22.1 vs 25.5?

2014 - 4th quarter only CP3 6.3 vs 6.1
2015 - 4th quarter only 6.4 vs 4.2

So even there CP3 outscored Blake in the 4th quarters as was often the case. He'd setup teammates for 3 quarters and take over in the 4th.

6.3 vs. 6.1 in 4th quarter scoring? That is as good as EQUAL.
Even 6.4 vs 4.2 is close.

2012 Clippers Playoffs = 11 games
2013 Clippers Playoffs = 6 games
2014 Clippers Playoffs = 13 games
2015 Clippers Playoffs = 14 games
2016 Clippers Playoffs = 4 games
2017 Clippers Playoffs = 7 games

The deepest playoff runs:
2012 = Griffin 19.1 points per game, Paul 17.6
2014 = Griffin 23.5 points per game, Paul 19.8
2015 = Griffin 25.5 points per game, Paul 22.1

You just quoted 22.1 vs 25.5 for a full game which is 3.4 points for 4 quarters. But now 2.2 for a SINGLE quarter is close? WTF are you talking about here man.

Again your words. Dominated. Not, slightly more.

[falcolombardi]

Stockton, easy.

Why? Chris Paul got his butt whipped by at least half of his allstar PG matchups in the playoffs. Stockton is much more reliable and straight up better at what you want a PG to do.

Terry porter famously took stockton lunch money lmao, what the hell is this argument,

Stockton playoffs numbers were wildly worse than paul's as his scoring (already paedestrian) got worse in the playoffs

[DavidSterned]

Stockton, easy.

Why? Chris Paul got his butt whipped by at least half of his allstar PG matchups in the playoffs. Stockton is much more reliable and straight up better at what you want a PG to do.

Terry porter famously took stockton lunch money lmao, what the hell is this argument,

Stockton playoffs numbers were wildly worse than paul's as his scoring (already paedestrian) got worse in the playoffs

Stockton was a total beast in the 97 playoffs and was Utah's best player for their near-title run, but his matchups were pretty weak (Darrick Martin, Nick Van Exel, Matt Maloney, old Ron Harper). In tougher matchups, like against Porter or against Payton in the 96 WCF, Stockton laid some eggs.

[Daddy 801]

If I’m drafting a player to be on my team for his entire career I am taking Stockton. If it was 1 on 1 CP3 is winning. If it’s those guys playing with identical players on each team it’s going to be an amazing 7 game series. But I think Stockton would win due to his defense. His ability to draw fouls was/is the most underrated part of his game. He would take charges and change the pace of the game. Also if Stockton was given more of a green light to shoot more 3’s he would have even better numbers but Sloan was a strict coach who though making adjustments was for idiots.

[HMFFL]

CP3 would have been more effective had he shot more. He wasn't always the 2nd option on his team. He never led a team in fga per game.  He gave priority to non hall of fame talent that  made an all-star once or twice. 

[SkyBill40]

I take Stockton here, but both he and Paul are solid floor generals.

Availability is a major key and out of his 19 seasons, Stockton played every game 16 times. Paul has, in his 20+ seasons, managed to play all regular season games only twice.

Clearly there are other statistics upon which either can be judged, but availability is perhaps one of the most important and gets regularly overlooked.

[og15]

CP3 would have been more effective had he shot more. He wasn't always the 2nd option on his team. He never led a team in fga per game.  He gave priority to non hall of fame talent that  made an all-star once or twice. 

Maybe, maybe not, depends on if he could consistently sustain shooting more through whole games/series' while guarding opposing star PG's, while they get a good amount of time resting off him on guys like Barnes while he was guarded by their defensive wing. This was a team build issue with the Hornets and Clippers teams he played on, but that is life, you're not putting MoPete, Peja, Redick, Crawford or Barnes on the opposing point guard.

That said, Griffin was a 6 x All-Star and 5 x All-NBA and would have had more if not for injuries, he was a HOF talent, but didn't have a HOF career due to health (actually basketball HOF is lenient so who knows), but certainly was that level of talent when they played together.

Paul took 1 FGA less in the regular season and 0.1 FGA more in the post season compared to West in 07-08.

In 08-09 he took 0.9 less in the RS and 1.4 less in the post-season than West, and for the post season, that was also a defense loading up factor.

Then of course some injury / returning from injury seasons and then he's a Clipper with Griffin.

i will say that in this specific comparison, this critique probably isn't the right one, and is a better one in a comparison to someone who scores more as this critique is even more relevant to Stockton.

..and Stockton did at times did shoot more than his usual in for example, some closeout games, but in many he just didn't make a lot of the extra shots. Of course that then goes against the idea that it was just situation that caused him to shoot less and score much less than Paul vs skillset and tools.

Regardless, it's a close comparison, much closer than the poll suggests, but in some ways similar guys, even in both being dirty, though based on his contemporaries, Stockton was seen as nastier in that sense. Must be a smaller player thing.

[HMFFL]

CP3 would have been more effective had he shot more. He wasn't always the 2nd option on his team. He never led a team in fga per game.  He gave priority to non hall of fame talent that  made an all-star once or twice. 

Maybe, maybe not, depends on if he could consistently sustain shooting more through whole games/series' while guarding opposing star PG's, while they get a good amount of time resting off him on guys like Barnes while he was guarded by their defensive wing. This was a team build issue with the Hornets and Clippers teams he played on, but that is life, you're not putting MoPete, Peja, Redick, Crawford or Barnes on the opposing point guard.

That said, Griffin was a 6 x All-Star and 5 x All-NBA and would have had more if not for injuries, he was a HOF talent, but didn't have a HOF career due to health (actually basketball HOF is lenient so who knows), but certainly was that level of talent when they played together.

Paul took 1 FGA less in the regular season and 0.1 FGA more in the post season compared to West in 07-08.

In 08-09 he took 0.9 less in the RS and 1.4 less in the post-season than West, and for the post season, that was also a defense loading up factor.

Then of course some injury / returning from injury seasons and then he's a Clipper with Griffin.

i will say that in this specific comparison, this critique probably isn't the right one, and is a better one in a comparison to someone who scores more as this critique is even more relevant to Stockton.

..and Stockton did at times did shoot more than his usual in for example, some closeout games, but in many he just didn't make a lot of the extra shots. Of course that then goes against the idea that it was just situation that caused him to shoot less and score much less than Paul vs skillset and tools.

Regardless, it's a close comparison, much closer than the poll suggests, but in some ways similar guys, even in both being dirty, though based on his contemporaries, Stockton was seen as nastier in that sense. Must be a smaller player thing.

The issue that remains for me is that he didn't shoot enough. That's always been the case. If you're the best talent on your team, you take it upon yourself to be the #1 option, but Chris Paul never took it upon himself to be the guy. David West only made an all-star team with CP as his teammate. Same for Blake Griffin except when he played in Detroit? 


CP never played with a superstar talent until he joined James Harden in Houston and that was brief.  If only the league didn't veto the trade that was going to send CP to the Lakers.


I never took CP as a serious threat to winning a championship due to New Orleans and the LA Clippers.  There was no reason for me to consider them anything more than a regular season team. Sadly, injuries derailed them (Clippers), too.

[mdonnelly1989]

Chris Paul got injured too much in the playoffs when it mattered the most. Got to go Stockton for that reason. Also #1 in assists and #1 in steals.

[Nate505]

First, I'll state my bias that Stockton is my favorite NBA player of all time and the reason I became a fan of the NBA. So I would take him over Paul knowing that aforementioned bias.

That said, I don't think it's an absurd take, like say taking Stockton over Magic or Curry or something like that. They are pretty comparable players. Paul is the better scorer of the two, while I believe Stockton was the better passer of the two. Defense is probably about equal, though if one wants to give the edge to Paul for it fine. The durability is probably the biggest factor to take him. He didn't take plays off and was as tough as nails. IMO his ironman abilities are more impressive given that he would mix it up with big guys and set picks on them to the point where they would try to take shots at him for it. You think at one point he would have been injured just for that.

However, anyone who has Paul over Stockton I totally understand, and I believe it's a perfectly valid take and wouldn't argue that much about it. It's real close.

[og15]

CP3 would have been more effective had he shot more. He wasn't always the 2nd option on his team. He never led a team in fga per game.  He gave priority to non hall of fame talent that  made an all-star once or twice. 

Maybe, maybe not, depends on if he could consistently sustain shooting more through whole games/series' while guarding opposing star PG's, while they get a good amount of time resting off him on guys like Barnes while he was guarded by their defensive wing. This was a team build issue with the Hornets and Clippers teams he played on, but that is life, you're not putting MoPete, Peja, Redick, Crawford or Barnes on the opposing point guard.

That said, Griffin was a 6 x All-Star and 5 x All-NBA and would have had more if not for injuries, he was a HOF talent, but didn't have a HOF career due to health (actually basketball HOF is lenient so who knows), but certainly was that level of talent when they played together.

Paul took 1 FGA less in the regular season and 0.1 FGA more in the post season compared to West in 07-08.

In 08-09 he took 0.9 less in the RS and 1.4 less in the post-season than West, and for the post season, that was also a defense loading up factor.

Then of course some injury / returning from injury seasons and then he's a Clipper with Griffin.

i will say that in this specific comparison, this critique probably isn't the right one, and is a better one in a comparison to someone who scores more as this critique is even more relevant to Stockton.

..and Stockton did at times did shoot more than his usual in for example, some closeout games, but in many he just didn't make a lot of the extra shots. Of course that then goes against the idea that it was just situation that caused him to shoot less and score much less than Paul vs skillset and tools.

Regardless, it's a close comparison, much closer than the poll suggests, but in some ways similar guys, even in both being dirty, though based on his contemporaries, Stockton was seen as nastier in that sense. Must be a smaller player thing.

The issue that remains for me is that he didn't shoot enough. That's always been the case. If you're the best talent on your team, you take it upon yourself to be the #1 option, but Chris Paul never took it upon himself to be the guy. David West only made an all-star team with CP as his teammate. The same might be said for Blake Griffin except when he played in Detroit? 


CP never played with a superstar talent until he joined James Harden in Houston and that was brief. 


I never took CP as a serious threat to winning a championship due to New Orleans and the LA Clippers.  There was no reason for me to consider them anything more than a regular season team. Sadly, injuries derailed them (Clippers), too. 

Griffin was an All-Star the year before Paul. He was definitely a different level of player than West, the ball handling and playmaking ability make a difference, and he was a superior scorer.

Griffin also did very well in the extended games Paul missed in 13-14, getting him some MVP consideration even, while West after CP went down in 09-10 didn't do anything like that.

I don't think your best player necessarily needs to be your leading scorer or FGA guy, though generally in the 4th quarter, Paul was the one taking or creating the shots to close out games.

I agree that te Clippers and Hornets didn't really have championship level supporting cast, so that's not really a big deal, probably argue that they somewhat overachieved in their regular seasons, and part of that due to Paul.

Clippers were closer to a contender in their only two healthy seasons after they became a better team due the young guys developing, which were 13-14 and 14-15, but their depth and defense was not strong enough to go through multiple rounds and win it all, so that's just what it was, but Paul scoring more wouldn't have been the difference either.