Shaq's defense vs. Jokic's offense

[Statlanta]

Horry was an elite defender...people really seriously underrate that man. Not saying you can't argue for Kobe here, but it's not an knock on Kobe to say someone like Horry was better defensively.

Bryant was all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, over a 13 year span.

In a 16 year NBA career Horry was never named to an all-defense team - not even once.

As a matter of fact, in his 16 year career Robert Horry has all of 5 votes for the all-defensive team.

So NBA head coaches clearly thought differently than you do. Surprise.

I suggest you go to YouTube and watch some Lakers games from the late 90s/2000s and educate yourself.

Accolades do not equal value, the best guards have nothing on the best bigs when it comes to defense especially back then where everyone was more paint focused. Horry would not win a single defensive award against Garnett, Rasheed, Duncan. He would if his competition was Vince Carter, Kerry Kittles, and Antonio Daniels. Hell I think his defense is undersold given he played in the golden age of PF(Dirk, Jermaine, Antoine Walker, Amare, Pau).
Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest defensive guards of all time but it would be hyperbole to call him the best defender on his team

[Big_Aristotle]

It's also marketing: the bigger name gets more attention and receives the most accolades (Bryant) compared to Horry.

On Shaq vs Jokic... that's an interesting one. Because the game is played differently now, Shaq would have been a different player now. Still dominant on offense, but his defensive game would have been adapted to the current game as he would have been teached and required different things to stay on the court. I'm not sure if the pick-and-roll weaknesses would be that big of a deal if he played now. Shaq in Orlando was much like Giannis today from a body-type perspective.

[dhsilv2]

I have a hard time saying Jokic had a top 3 peak offensively.

1988 Jordan, 2009 LeBron James, 2016 Steph Curry, 1972 Kareem

Obviously you have these careers too, and I’ll take them
on offense over Jokic 100% of the time.

I mean just look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html

Then look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

and I guess this one kinda supports Jokic’s offensive “peak”, but I’ve said that the greatest offensive peak of all time is 2015-2016 Steph. I don’t really like BPM because it can skewed by team and roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/obpm_season.html

Got it...Alex Groza had a better offensive peak than MJ...

[dhsilv2]

Horry was an elite defender...people really seriously underrate that man. Not saying you can't argue for Kobe here, but it's not an knock on Kobe to say someone like Horry was better defensively.

Bryant was all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, over a 13 year span.

In a 16 year NBA career Horry was never named to an all-defense team - not even once.

As a matter of fact, in his 16 year career Robert Horry has all of 5 votes for the all-defensive team.

So NBA head coaches clearly thought differently than you do. Surprise.

I suggest you go to YouTube and watch some Lakers games from the late 90s/2000s and educate yourself.

I got some magic beans to sell you if you think the head coaches were even the ones consistently voting, let alone put serious thought into this. LOL

[Luke]

Horry was an elite defender...people really seriously underrate that man. Not saying you can't argue for Kobe here, but it's not an knock on Kobe to say someone like Horry was better defensively.

Bryant was all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, over a 13 year span.

In a 16 year NBA career Horry was never named to an all-defense team - not even once.

As a matter of fact, in his 16 year career Robert Horry has all of 5 votes for the all-defensive team.

So NBA head coaches clearly thought differently than you do. Surprise.

I suggest you go to YouTube and watch some Lakers games from the late 90s/2000s and educate yourself.

I got some magic beans to sell you if you think the head coaches were even the ones consistently voting, let alone put serious thought into this. LOL

Please, enlighten us on who was really voting... Kobe's agent ? Kobe's fans ? Klutch ? Ah no, sorry, Kobe didn't own Klutch , I 'm probably talking about somebody else...

[dhsilv2]

Bryant was all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, over a 13 year span.

In a 16 year NBA career Horry was never named to an all-defense team - not even once.

As a matter of fact, in his 16 year career Robert Horry has all of 5 votes for the all-defensive team.

So NBA head coaches clearly thought differently than you do. Surprise.

I suggest you go to YouTube and watch some Lakers games from the late 90s/2000s and educate yourself.

I got some magic beans to sell you if you think the head coaches were even the ones consistently voting, let alone put serious thought into this. LOL

Please, enlighten us on who was really voting... Kobe's agent ? Kobe's fans ? Klutch ? Ah no, sorry, Kobe didn't own Klutch , I 'm probably talking about somebody else...

It's not secrete that coaches let the assistants and internees vote.

[NoStatsGuy]

saying jokic could be shaq on offense depending on his mood is kinda crazy no?

dont wanna hate on jokic or anything, he surely deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT bigs especially on offense. But i can not and did not ever see any resemblence of shaq in his game. Getting to the rim for jokic is based on body controly, footwork and outmaneuvering his defenders. Shaq overpowered them, thats two completely different player types imo.

Does anybody have a clip or something where i can see shades of shaq in jokic' game?`Im down to change my opinion, i just dont see it (yet).

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Shaq as a pure drop coverage rim protector is simply a much larger, more vertically explosive obstacle in the paint. Prime Shaq's defense was all about him being a giant obstacle. He was so big and he automatically won any strength-based physical battle in the paint.

I know Jokic looks goofy, but he's so much more mobile than people casually talk about him. He's pretty adept at rotating out the perimeter and contesting shots. He's so good at scram switching, the Nuggets built a whole defensive system around it. He makes very high-level reads. Obviously he's toast against elite speed, but against anyone else, he's pretty fine on the perimeter (the numbers back this up). Elite defensive hands.

Where Jokic sucks is vertical defense beyond his height. There's no hops in any situation, so once the game goes vertical, he simply has an exact limit of his height+his wingspan. Shaq and most other centers were able to make vertical plays. It's a big weakness that's sort of rare for a center.

Just saying that the real Shaq was not some sort of Brook Lopez in deep drop. He didn't have his timing, his reflexes, his ability to play cat and mouse with the ball handler.
He was ok and that's it, while being unable to leave the paint.
Multiyear RAPM don't show Shaq being any better than Jokic, on defense. And in an era that helped him compare to now.

[AleksandarN]

I don't think it does personally. Offensive schemes have become more complex and perimeter players are more skilled today. Shaq would have a lot more difficulty trying to play defense today than in the early 2000s.

I think Orlando Shaq would do better. Orlando/slim Shaq was a way better defender than Lakers Shaq

[AleksandarN]

Shaq didn’t play any defense at all more than about 8 feet from the basket.

This is exactly right. Go back and watch film. He doesn’t leave the paint ever on defense. He doesn’t raise his arms outside of the restricted area. He was atrocious in pick and roll. In other words, he’s extremely fortunate he played in the era he did.

Orlando Shaq was better.

[kcktiny]

Accolades do not equal value

You are clearly wrong. You simply choose not to acknowledge them. That is your right.

I value the opinions of the NBA head coaches that voted. You don't. Surprise.

the best guards have nothing on the best bigs when it comes to defense

No argument there. But back in the day the all-defensive team was voted on as a "team". Two guards, two forwards, one center (for the most part).

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest defensive guards of all time

Correct.

but it would be hyperbole to call him the best defender on his team

Horry would not win a single defensive award... I think his defense is undersold...

Bryant had a decade long stretch in his career where he averaged playing close to 3000 minutes per season (2000-01 to 2009-10).

The years he was named all-defensive 1st team he averaged 2950 minutes/season, the Lakers were the 5th best defensive team in the league, Bryant played 26555 total minutes (1/7 to 1/6 of the team's total minutes played), and no other Lakers player played more than 15884 minutes.

Horry in a 16 year career played less than 2000 minutes in a season in over half of his seasons, only once played more than 2400 minutes in a season, and never more than 2640 minutes in a season. His best decade of most minutes played he averaged playing only 2075 minutes/season.

Part of a player's ability is his availability. Hard to play defense from the bench.

Tony Allen was a great defender. But the years he was named to the all-defensive team he averaged just 1718 minutes/season. You think an NBA head coach would rather have a great guard defender for 1718 minutes/season or 2950 minutes/season?

I got some magic beans to sell you if you think the head coaches were even the ones consistently voting, let alone put serious thought into this.

Yes you fit well in today's world as a conspiracy theorist. Go join Kyrie as a flat-earther.

It's not secrete that coaches let the assistants and internees vote.

Only in your convoluted mind.

Shaq's defense vs. Jokic's offense

There are people today that still do not believe Shaq was a great defender. But you won't hear other players saying he wasn't. Prime Shaq was a beast on defense.

In 1999-00, 2000-01, and 2002-03, right in his prime years, Shaq was voted to the all-defensive 2nd team. The only Cs voted above him to the all-defensive 1st team were Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, and Alonzo Mourning. These 3 years he was voted in the Lakers as a team allowed the 3rd lowest 2pt FG% (44.8%) among all teams in the league.

Multiyear RAPM don't show Shaq being any better than Jokic, on defense.

Which goes to show you just how useless your mathematical concoction is.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

saying jokic could be shaq on offense depending on his mood is kinda crazy no?

dont wanna hate on jokic or anything, he surely deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT bigs especially on offense. But i can not and did not ever see any resemblence of shaq in his game. Getting to the rim for jokic is based on body controly, footwork and outmaneuvering his defenders. Shaq overpowered them, thats two completely different player types imo.

Does anybody have a clip or something where i can see shades of shaq in jokic' game?`Im down to change my opinion, i just dont see it (yet).

Jokic physically dominates and overwhelms many of his opponents but yeah, it’s nowhere near the level of Shaq in that regard.

[Godymas]

I have a hard time saying Jokic had a top 3 peak offensively.

1988 Jordan, 2009 LeBron James, 2016 Steph Curry, 1972 Kareem

Obviously you have these careers too, and I’ll take them
on offense over Jokic 100% of the time.

I mean just look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html

Then look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

and I guess this one kinda supports Jokic’s offensive “peak”, but I’ve said that the greatest offensive peak of all time is 2015-2016 Steph. I don’t really like BPM because it can skewed by team and roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/obpm_season.html

Got it...Alex Groza had a better offensive peak than MJ...

Alex Groza played 2 years in the NBA in the 1950s and was All NBA 1st team both years, as well as ROTY. He was then banned from the league for life after being implicated in a point shaving scandal.

The point is, Alex Groza could have been a GOAT. People remember George Mikan, Groza was gonna so much better than Mikan.

So, you say Alex Groza like it’s a no one, no if he didn’t get banned we’d have him as the greatest player in the 1950s

[dhsilv2]

I have a hard time saying Jokic had a top 3 peak offensively.

1988 Jordan, 2009 LeBron James, 2016 Steph Curry, 1972 Kareem

Obviously you have these careers too, and I’ll take them
on offense over Jokic 100% of the time.

I mean just look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html

Then look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

and I guess this one kinda supports Jokic’s offensive “peak”, but I’ve said that the greatest offensive peak of all time is 2015-2016 Steph. I don’t really like BPM because it can skewed by team and roster.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/obpm_season.html

Got it...Alex Groza had a better offensive peak than MJ...

Alex Groza played 2 years in the NBA in the 1950s and was All NBA 1st team both years, as well as ROTY. He was then banned from the league for life after being implicated in a point shaving scandal.

The point is, Alex Groza could have been a GOAT. People remember George Mikan, Groza was gonna so much better than Mikan.

So, you say Alex Groza like it’s a no one, no if he didn’t get banned we’d have him as the greatest player in the 1950s

I'm well aware of who he is. He was not a GOAT level player. I pointed it out because WS has a huge bias for TS% relative to the league average along with playing high minutes per game. Which doubly creates a bias for the 50's.

[Godymas]

Got it...Alex Groza had a better offensive peak than MJ...

Alex Groza played 2 years in the NBA in the 1950s and was All NBA 1st team both years, as well as ROTY. He was then banned from the league for life after being implicated in a point shaving scandal.

The point is, Alex Groza could have been a GOAT. People remember George Mikan, Groza was gonna so much better than Mikan.

So, you say Alex Groza like it’s a no one, no if he didn’t get banned we’d have him as the greatest player in the 1950s

I'm well aware of who he is. He was not a GOAT level player. I pointed it out because WS has a huge bias for TS% relative to the league average along with playing high minutes per game. Which doubly creates a bias for the 50's.

And yet 2014-2015 CP3 is higher on OWS than any Jokic season

[Doctor MJ]

I'm of the opinion Jokic is one of the 3 best offensive players ever or so, and despite Shaq's dominance on that end, I give Jokic the clear nod. Depending on his mood, Jokic can be Shaq, he can be Dirk, he can be Magic -- he can dominate you offensively in any way he wants to. And he hits his free throws. He's an offensive demi-god.

However, the defense is where it gets tricky. I think Jokic was an above average defensive player in '23, the championship year, which is why it's his clear peak IMO. Not great, but adequate. But I'm thoroughly unimpressed with his defense in every other year of his prime.

Meanwhile, after watching a ton of old Laker games, Shaq's defense in the 3-peat was pretty damn good. Not on the perimeter, but his rim protection was very, very good. Leagues better than Jokic's. Both as a shot blocker and a rim deterrent. And Jokic isn't exactly a perimeter stalwart himself.

I know the board is somewhat split on who the better player is. Does Shaq's defense in the interior sufficiently make up the offensive gap, if you believe there is one?

*Sidenote. Robert Horry was definitely the best defender on the 3-peat Lakers. Dude was a monster on that end and would be an extremely valuable player today. He could have started on any title team in the last 10 years.

So "not on the perimeter" = "not against what modern offenses would do to him" to me.

Shaq was quite effective defensively back when teams made little attempt to attack his weaknesses, but today, they wouldn't be so nice.

[dhsilv2]

Alex Groza played 2 years in the NBA in the 1950s and was All NBA 1st team both years, as well as ROTY. He was then banned from the league for life after being implicated in a point shaving scandal.

The point is, Alex Groza could have been a GOAT. People remember George Mikan, Groza was gonna so much better than Mikan.

So, you say Alex Groza like it’s a no one, no if he didn’t get banned we’d have him as the greatest player in the 1950s

I'm well aware of who he is. He was not a GOAT level player. I pointed it out because WS has a huge bias for TS% relative to the league average along with playing high minutes per game. Which doubly creates a bias for the 50's.

And yet 2014-2015 CP3 is higher on OWS than any Jokic season

Well CP3 being discussed at a GOAT level offensive player isn't a wild take. But also played more minutes that year than any Jokic season.

[Godymas]

I'm well aware of who he is. He was not a GOAT level player. I pointed it out because WS has a huge bias for TS% relative to the league average along with playing high minutes per game. Which doubly creates a bias for the 50's.

And yet 2014-2015 CP3 is higher on OWS than any Jokic season

Well CP3 being discussed at a GOAT level offensive player isn't a wild take. But also played more minutes that year than any Jokic season.

and the season that beats Jokic with similar MPG is...2015-2016 Steph Curry, and 2015 CP3 averaged about the same minutes as Jokic's MVP years.

[picc]

Oh lord. Give me a break.

If Mike Bibby and Chris Webber decided to play 2-man game for Bibby pick and pops, there is absolutely nothing Nikola "I stood 6 feet away from Chris Paul while he walked into wide open midrangers" Jokic could or would do about it. And if anyone thinks they're about to gaslight me into thinking Jokic's perimeter defense is meaningfully better than Shaq's, you're out of your mind.

[Doctor MJ]

Oh lord. Give me a break.

If Mike Bibby and Chris Webber decided to play 2-man game for Bibby pick and pops, there is absolutely nothing Nikola "I stood 6 feet away from Chris Paul while he walked into wide open midrangers" Jokic could or would do about it. And if anyone thinks they're about to gaslight me into thinking Jokic's perimeter defense is meaningfully better than Shaq's, you're out of your mind.

When an OP writes a post like this, it signals to the rest of us that the OP wasn’t ever interested in what we had to say.


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