Are Luka/Jokic the top 2 offensive players in NBA history?

[atlantabbq99]

For as much as we talk about Lebron , Jordan Magic etc (Jokic is starting to get his due)

In terms of passing , scoring efficiency etc. Both of these guys are incredible

You do know that Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain were in the nba right?! .....

[Bloodbather]

I think Jokic will go down as the offensive GOAT when he's done. He's a taller Larry Bird with the interior finishing efficiency of Shaq (with a different style), basically, and has been that for a while now. One of the most efficient post scorers ever, an efficient scorer from all three levels, one of the greatest playmakers ever, a great offensive rebounder, and a very good FT shooter. It's complete in a way we've never seen before which is why he breaks offensive advanced stats.

Doncic is more like a better version of Harden right now. Definitely one of the greats, but not at the level of a Jokic, MJ, LeBron, Steph, Bird, or Magic. He's just behind them, though, and could get there if his shot becomes more consistent.

[hagredionis]

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

Cherry picking stats is not apples to apples comparison but ok here we go: 28.4 ppg / 5.7 apg / 7.1 apg

Cherry picking? Lol

You included his stats when coming off the bench for OKC. Just compare them as starters.

Not only are they the same, but half of Luka's moves are lifted off Harden.

Luka the slightly better scorer probably but Harden is the better passer. To put THAT in perspective for you, when Kyrie Irving and Chris "Point God" Paul played with James Harden - both coaches handed PG duties to James Harden and both players accepted it as the best solution. He successfully outperformed both of them. Luka is not in that category of passer. The fact that he gives you 1 more ppg doesn't make up for that.

Maybe half of Luka's moves are "lifted off Harden" but the other half Harden doesn't have. Luka has a post game for example. Claiming that Harden is a better passer is absurd and it tells me you've never watched Luka play.

Career assists per game:
Luka regular season: 8.2 apg
Harden regular season: 7.2 apg
Luka playoffs: 7.8 apg
Harden playoffs: 6.5 apg

Finally Harden was handed PG duties when playing with Kyrie because Kyrie is more of a SG than a PG, Kyrie was always at his best when he played with a ballhandler like Lebron or Luka. I don't remember what happened when Harden played with Paul tho, was Paul playing SG or what?

[Statlanta]

no, today's NBA is a pathetic joke with everything geared towards offense and putting up counting stats due to usage and no expectations from coaches to play defense. There's a reason slow, unathletic Europeans couldn't make the NBA back then when players were expected to play defense, sat if they couldn't, didn't have the ball 35% of the time and couldn't travel, carry, push off and force switches onto centers using illegal moving screens. It's like comparing numbers of today's QBs to those of the 70s and 80s

No argument here.

The NBA should be renamed National Practice Ball or National Freestyle Ball.

the comment is low key prejudiced you could literally replace the same sentence with "there's a reason low IQ athletic black men couldn't make the NBA in the 1940s when there were real rules and you couldn't palm the ball, charge into players with your forearm, and jump into players"

[JinKaz69]

Modern era : Curry - Jokic
Old era : Jordan - Shaq

[cupcakesnake]

To me the top 5 offensive players ever are:

Jokic
Magic
Jordan
Curry
James
(in some order)

Luka has a chance to get there, but that top 5 is hard to crack.

Luka is somewhere in a list with:
Nash, Oscar, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, Bird, West, Kobe, Durant, Barkley, Harden, Reggie.

Disrespecting Shai

Yeah, Shai is a much better offensive player than Reggie Miller. So is Giannis. So is Anthony Edwards.

Yeah Shai should probably be in there. His rise is still pretty new so its hard to place him on all-time lists. Same with Luka for me.

I don't feel like giving the Reggie Miller spiel right now, so I'll just say there are reasons tons of smart basketball analysts and fans rank Reggie's offense a lot higher than his counting stats or accolades. If you like to look at PPG and count all-stars, Reggie isn't your cup of tea. If you're into how players impact team offense, insane playoff rising, and all-time playoff scoring impact, then you rank Reggie a little higher.

[Archx]

.... but Harden is the better passer.

There is more to that than a raw APG stat, just like with shoots when you can look at TS%, etc...

This was from 2 seasons ago.

According to CBS' Yaya Dubin, Luka is creating the highest shot quality in NBA history (since tracking data began) with his passes.
https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/quantified-shot-quality-qsq/

And this was last season when he had a down year. Otherwise he's been at the top when it comes to quality % of shots created from assists.

[Blame Rasho]

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

You sure you wanna do that? His dog crap percentages will not work in his favor along with no shows where he doesn’t even show up. He sucks, deal with it… hahaha

Houston playoff Harden: 57.8 TS%
Playoff Luka: 57.3 TS%

Luka is very quickly getting a playoff reputation that is outpacing his production. He has had some big playoff performances and certainly some big shots, but while he started out as a playoff killer, his last 2 playoff runs (finals/first round exit) have been individually underwhelming for him, and that makes up about half his playoff games. These get hand waved away by injury, but that opens up another discussion about durability and being able to withstand 82 games and the playoffs and stay at a high level.

Yeah you haven’t even addressed hardens consistency in no showing in games that matter. The fact that we have to use the absolute apex of Harden’s playoff career, to make it remotely close to Luka’s entire career says something. You had a guy named Simmons(who name I can’t even remember) outplay Harden with no Kawhi, no Parker as well because he was at a god damn strip club before and after the game where the Rockets were blown out.

[LarsV8]

Yeah you haven’t even addressed hardens consistency in no showing in games that matter. The fact that we have to use the absolute apex of Harden’s playoff career, to make it remotely close to Luka’s entire career says something. You had a guy named Simmons(who name I can’t even remember) outplay Harden with no Kawhi, no Parker as well because he was at a god damn strip club before and after the game where the Rockets were blown out.

The premise is not top playoff offensive player, nor top big game offensive player, its everything.

Harden is comfortably ahead of Doncic as a player at this point in their careers.

He was a better playmaker, and a much more efficient scorer.

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation, but he is fairly irrelevant when you pool together all the best players from different eras. Harden is more relevant, as we simply have never seen, before or since, that combination of high volume scoring efficiency, and volume playmaking.

[Mephariel]

Yeah you haven’t even addressed hardens consistency in no showing in games that matter. The fact that we have to use the absolute apex of Harden’s playoff career, to make it remotely close to Luka’s entire career says something. You had a guy named Simmons(who name I can’t even remember) outplay Harden with no Kawhi, no Parker as well because he was at a god damn strip club before and after the game where the Rockets were blown out.

The premise is not top playoff offensive player, nor top big game offensive player, its everything.

Harden is comfortably ahead of Doncic as a player at this point in their careers.

He was a better playmaker, and a much more efficient scorer.

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation, but he is fairly irrelevant when you pool together all the best players from different eras. Harden is more relevant, as we simply have never seen, before or since, that combination of high volume scoring efficiency, and volume playmaking.

I have to say, you are right that it isn't that clear to me that Luka now is better than prime Harden. People like to pretend Harden wasn't that great. He was.

[Blame Rasho]

Yeah you haven’t even addressed hardens consistency in no showing in games that matter. The fact that we have to use the absolute apex of Harden’s playoff career, to make it remotely close to Luka’s entire career says something. You had a guy named Simmons(who name I can’t even remember) outplay Harden with no Kawhi, no Parker as well because he was at a god damn strip club before and after the game where the Rockets were blown out.

The premise is not top playoff offensive player, nor top big game offensive player, its everything.

Harden is comfortably ahead of Doncic as a player at this point in their careers.

He was a better playmaker, and a much more efficient scorer.

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation, but he is fairly irrelevant when you pool together all the best players from different eras. Harden is more relevant, as we simply have never seen, before or since, that combination of high volume scoring efficiency, and volume playmaking.

At this point we have not even reached Luka prime… and he already has 5 all nba first teams while Harden’s has 6 over his career and an MVP could be as soon as the next 3 years. It isn’t unreasonable to see him surpassing his career in the foreseeable future.

Like I said before, you have to already put conditions and caveats to make Harden on Luka’s level that says something. If people wanna get off on Harden, go ahead it really doesn’t mean much in the big picture. Luka has already accomplished much more at his age than Harden did as the same age.

[prime1time]

They might just be. Neither one takes any pride in playing defense. Most great offensive players actually tried on both sides of the ball.

[prime1time]

Yeah you haven’t even addressed hardens consistency in no showing in games that matter. The fact that we have to use the absolute apex of Harden’s playoff career, to make it remotely close to Luka’s entire career says something. You had a guy named Simmons(who name I can’t even remember) outplay Harden with no Kawhi, no Parker as well because he was at a god damn strip club before and after the game where the Rockets were blown out.

The premise is not top playoff offensive player, nor top big game offensive player, its everything.

Harden is comfortably ahead of Doncic as a player at this point in their careers.

He was a better playmaker, and a much more efficient scorer.

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation, but he is fairly irrelevant when you pool together all the best players from different eras. Harden is more relevant, as we simply have never seen, before or since, that combination of high volume scoring efficiency, and volume playmaking.

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation? What generation is that exactly? Who are we comparing Doncic to?

[bbms]

jokic has a legit argument, though the competition is fierce vs nash, magic, mj, curry, bird, dirk, lebron. even durant i suspect i can legitimately put here, the dude has always been able to turn lineups full of offensive scrubs into potent offensive lineups just because of gravity.

luka is far from it yet.

[LarsV8]

Doncic is a top 5 player in this generation? What generation is that exactly? Who are we comparing Doncic to?

Basically the current guys
Jokic
Giannis
Shai
Luka

and now Wemby

[Ayt]

Jokic is clearly the best offensive player in NBA history so far.

[1993Playoffs]

I feel Lukas playoff play puts him up there

[Bank Shot]

Jokic and who

[AleksandarN]

Jokic and who

Curry

[moderndarwin]

I don’t think most people here understand basketball if you don’t get why Curry is number one.

His gravity at the NBA level is unmatched in a way we’ve never seen. There’s no comparison to it.

The level of mental attention, focus and energy it takes to even try and simply just get a hand up takes such a toll on the defense and stretches it so thin. It’s like taking a hundreds of body shots as a boxer. Sprinting back and forth, closing out deep, etc damage the defense in a way that’s unusual.

If people guarded Steph the way they guard Jokic or Luka he’d average 45. He has entire teams selling out to try and stop him and he still gets 30 on insane efficiency. He opens the floor up way better. He just happens to have scrubs as teammates now.