Has Shai passed Luka? If so, when? (impact as a player + all-time)

[dantas]

In terms of greatness and legacy, Shai surpassed Luka last season with the MVP and FMVP awards.

In terms of technical level of play, it is more subjective, since they are players of different positions and styles. Shai has slightly better advanced numbers in some metrics (WS, WS/48, TS), while Luka leads in others (PER). Moreover, Shai hasn’t had to deal with the issues Doncic has faced, such as injury and roster changes.

[duppyy]

Shai is the better leader.

[Capn'O]

I think so. Luka's still a better offensive player but the fact that Shai can impact both ends of the floor at a high level and provides 1st option level scoring makes him a better player. Like, if I needed a bucket on one play I'd probably want Luka but Shai impacts a complete game more.

Also, Shai doesn't complain. When he's not getting the calls he just bears down and flops harder. Leadership.

[CobraCommander]

if you dont think SGA is better than Luka when SGA came in at the same time and has won a MVP, FMVP, won the scoring time and a ring...has been voted as ahead of Luka on mvp voting for 4 straight years then what does SGA have to do to be considered better than Luka?


in a vacuum I dont think Luka is better than SGA and to some peoples surprise, I dont think SGA is better than Luka in a vacuum.

from a skillset perspective individually they are a wash.

the thing that I consider is that WHILE Luka gets more rebounds and assist, those assist and rebound dont equate to winning more games...especially when compared to SGAs production...so honestly... Lukas additional assist and rebounds are more like Westbrooks...in a different system you wouldn't ask Luka to get that many assist or rebounds if it doesn't make the team win more... and okc won the most games in the league for a few years while also being the youngest team, they have great chemistry MAYBE because more guys are involved in the office.

the fact is, we haven't seen a player like Luka win a championship. Harden is the closest proxy but is even more efficient and Westbrook has had similar counting stats but is less efficient....both are mvps but neither are champions...

but with me saying...for the most part all things are equal from a basketball perspective...

SGA is miles ahead of luka when it comes to tangible and intangible leadership

tangible leadership...sga is never giving the coaches, gms, Owners, refs, fans, or his teammates any reason to be upset with him...Luka has pissed off all of these people at some point..and it has been documented. example...Luka has been thrown out of a finals game and in doing so, he pissed off everyone on earth because it may have cost his team a chance to win a title.

intangible leadership
SGA shows up every game in shape and drives a culture of togetherness...which has obviously led to winning.


SGAs teammates love him and let him lead... and you can't say thats true about any other superstar in the nba at this level.

[Cavsfansince84]

SGA shows up every game in shape and drives a culture of togetherness...which has obviously led to winning.


SGAs teammates love him and let him lead... and you can't say thats true about any other superstar in the nba at this level.

I think it's true of Jokic, Giannis and to some degree even Luka. Having said that, it's more about what a guy does with that then having guys like him and whatnot. Ya, I don't think there's any doubt though that Shai as of now surpassed Luka. Probably not by quite as much as some think but he's in a great position to end up higher than Luka career wise though maybe the Lakers surprise people this year or next year or realistically, maybe even 5-6 years from now. It makes about as much sense to say which guy is better all time now than it did 4 years ago because both guys are relatively very young still. Same way that back in 2014 KD was the maybe the most universally liked star in the league imo but then 3 years later and even now he's seen as surly and a snake and all this other stuff. A lot can change over the course of 5-7 years in the nba.

[guynumber45]

I still think Luka has a higher ceiling. But Shai is just a much more consistent performer.

You can attribute a lot Shai's success to just having a great team built around because of Sam Presti's genius. But I think Shai also deserves a lot of credit for being a big contributor the culture that OKC has. His professionalism and consistency on and off the court carries over to the rest of the squad and makes them great.

Luka still has a long way to go in terms of intangibles. His behaviour, especially towards the referees, is akin to that of a bratty child who was denied of the toy they wanted. And I think it's a fair question to ask if Luka will ever reach the level of maturity he needs to reach his full potential.

[Yoshun]

I think OKC has done a MUCH better job building around SGA than Dallas did (or LA so far) building around Luka. It makes it hard to rank things like FMVP and rings.

That said, I think SGA is the better all around player. Luka is the better player on the offensive end, all things considered, but SGA is elite on that end as well.

Luka is an underrated defender, but SGA is obviously much better.

I like watching both players. Things seem to come so easily for both of them. I was watching the OKC/Laker game and SGA just looked so smooth, everything seems effortless (it's obviously not).

What a time to be watching basketball.

[CobraCommander]

I'm starting to wonder what Luka has actually done to get this kind of benefit of the doubt year after year. First you had the laughable ESPN list and casuals putting him ahead of Giannis, and now we're still acting like SGA hasn't firmly passed him based on peak play (Top-5 SG season ever last year by the numbers) and individual hardware?

Seriously, I'm struggling to understand where Luka's case even starts anymore. Box score rebound and assist numbers? Even the rough lineup data hasn't painted Luka as some crazy impact dude throughout his career. As a historic parallel, it's basically like taking out the one feather in T-Mac's cap over Kobe ('03 season) and STILL trying to argue that McGrady was better.

yeah its true but this is an emotional argument at this point. there are guys that just love luka and it doesn't matter how much SGA does, Luka is better in their mind...the fact that there are people that think luka is better than Giannis or SGA tells you all you need to know honestly...when someone says that, its based on emotions not facts...because if take just their accolades in a vacuum, there is no way to pick luka. you can argue you just like the way luka plays more...thats valid...but you can't argue realistically that luka is BETTER than SGA when sga has simply done more

[CobraCommander]

SGA shows up every game in shape and drives a culture of togetherness...which has obviously led to winning.


SGAs teammates love him and let him lead... and you can't say thats true about any other superstar in the nba at this level.

I think it's true of Jokic, Giannis and to some degree even Luka. Having said that, it's more about what a guy does with that then having guys like him and whatnot. Ya, I don't think there's any doubt though that Shai as of now surpassed Luka. Probably not by quite as much as some think but he's in a great position to end up higher than Luka career wise though maybe the Lakers surprise people this year or next year or realistically, maybe even 5-6 years from now. It makes about as much sense to say which guy is better all time now than it did 4 years ago because both guys are relatively very young still. Same way that back in 2014 KD was the maybe the most universally liked star in the league imo but then 3 years later and even now he's seen as surly and a snake and all this other stuff. A lot can change over the course of 5-7 years in the nba.

you can't say Luka is universally loved by his teammates and coaches...we got guys like Rick C and KP and even Din and Brunson saying there were people that didnt really get along with luka...either because they felt like they didnt get the ball enough, or that he was aloof like like Kobe or that he was just mean to these guys when they were on the bench...we have seen luka curse out his whole bench... NOW WHO WANTS THE BOSS CURSING THEM OUT IN TV....luka has embarrassed teammates when they do something stupid on the court...also it's not leadership showing up out of shape year after year...come on man. LUKA IS A MERCURIAL talent but he is not a leader....yet... luka is your best player but he hasn't shown real leadership.

one thing I will tell you thats obvious this year...look at ARs numbers when luka plays or doesn't play...so I ask is it better to have luka run everything or would the lakers be better if when Luka and AR shared the offensive load more evenly? AR was avg 31...why not share more of the offensive load so they both have more energy on defense..?

[Cavsfansince84]

you can't say Luka is universally loved by his teammates and coaches...we got guys like Rick C and KP and even Din and Brunson saying there were people that didnt really get along with luka...either because they felt like they didnt get the ball enough, or that he was aloof like like Kobe or that he was just mean to these guys when they were on the bench...we have seen luka curse out his whole bench... NOW WHO WANTS THE BOSS CURSING THEM OUT IN TV....luka has embarrassed teammates when they do something stupid on the court...also it's not leadership showing up out of shape year after year...come on man. LUKA IS A MERCURIAL talent but he is not a leader....yet... luka is your best player but he hasn't shown real leadership.

one thing I will tell you thats obvious this year...look at ARs numbers when luka plays or doesn't play...so I ask is it better to have luka run everything or would the lakers be better if when Luka and AR shared the offensive load more evenly? AR was avg 31...why not share more of the offensive load so they both have more energy on defense..?

Current teammates is what I was referring to with Luka. Also, using 10 game samples with Luka and AR when there's only one ball to go around. That's not all up to Luka. Also, I think that will develop as the season goes on between them. Plus LeBron coming back. That will be up to JJ to figure out more than the players. Lastly, I'm not even a big Luka fan in general. I think way too many people on here assume every time a person argues on behalf or against someone/something on here they are a fan of one thing and/or hate the other. I think Luka had the chance to open a new page by going to the Lakers and that he will also grow up as time goes by. I don't like all the complaining he does but leadership goes way beyond that. Generally speaking, guys who succeed as clear #1 players are also good leaders.

[TheGeneral99]

While Luka ahs the slight edge offensively, Shai has the edge overall in my opinion because he's also elite defensively.

[tamaraw08]

Put Luka on the Thunder and see what happens.

What happens? Luka is great on offense, but so is Shai. Defensively and chemistry wise, they take a hit.

Did Dallas take a hit with Luka when they defeated the Clippers, OKC and Minnesota in the 2023 playoffs?

[Patches Perry]

you can't say Luka is universally loved by his teammates and coaches...we got guys like Rick C and KP and even Din and Brunson saying there were people that didnt really get along with luka...either because they felt like they didnt get the ball enough, or that he was aloof like like Kobe or that he was just mean to these guys when they were on the bench...we have seen luka curse out his whole bench... NOW WHO WANTS THE BOSS CURSING THEM OUT IN TV....luka has embarrassed teammates when they do something stupid on the court...also it's not leadership showing up out of shape year after year...come on man. LUKA IS A MERCURIAL talent but he is not a leader....yet... luka is your best player but he hasn't shown real leadership.

one thing I will tell you thats obvious this year...look at ARs numbers when luka plays or doesn't play...so I ask is it better to have luka run everything or would the lakers be better if when Luka and AR shared the offensive load more evenly? AR was avg 31...why not share more of the offensive load so they both have more energy on defense..?

These are good points, and I always hesitate to make similar points because I actually think pretty highly of Luka, but in comparisons with guys of his tier, it's not out of bounds to bring them up. There is a difference in how Luka interacts with his teammates and how Shai does, and the impact it has on making their teammates better.

Luka is similar to Westbrook/Harden (or even LeBron if we want to frame it positively with a champion) in the sense that on the court, he keeps his teammates on a short leash. He doesn't need much from them (to his credit), and so those players become limited or stunted in their development. Luka just needs them to be a release valve as he orchestrates everything, so the evolution of his teammates ends up being either 3pt shooting or catching lobs. The evolution of his teammates isn't significant, but he gets full credit for any contributions they make by virtue of how involved he is in setting everything up for them.

The way Shai makes his teammates better is a bit of a slow simmer and harder to quantify. Jalen Williams has developed with hardly any limitations to his ball handling, passing, drive game, shooting, defense, etc. Unfortunately for Shai's standing in these debates, that gets weaponized against him, because Jalen Williams becomes so good at everything that his evolution is considered completely independent of Shai. It becomes "Shai has this talent next to him" without any regard for how he might have influenced the development of that talent. I feel like we're seeing similar things with Ajay Mitchell now.

I don't deny the vast disparity in talent between Shai's team now and Luka's team now, but Shai's leadership and work ethic has been a strong catalyst for the development of every Thunder player. Admittedly, it's hard to quantify how much he is helping, but he generally wants his guys to become the best version of themselves, not simply a release valve for him when defenses collapse on him.

Jalen Williams gives credit to Shai for helping him become the player he is:

Watch on YouTube

[The Laker Kid]

Yes, as soon as he became a Laker he went down a few notches here in RealGM.

[bbms]

you can't say Luka is universally loved by his teammates and coaches...we got guys like Rick C and KP and even Din and Brunson saying there were people that didnt really get along with luka...either because they felt like they didnt get the ball enough, or that he was aloof like like Kobe or that he was just mean to these guys when they were on the bench...we have seen luka curse out his whole bench... NOW WHO WANTS THE BOSS CURSING THEM OUT IN TV....luka has embarrassed teammates when they do something stupid on the court...also it's not leadership showing up out of shape year after year...come on man. LUKA IS A MERCURIAL talent but he is not a leader....yet... luka is your best player but he hasn't shown real leadership.

one thing I will tell you thats obvious this year...look at ARs numbers when luka plays or doesn't play...so I ask is it better to have luka run everything or would the lakers be better if when Luka and AR shared the offensive load more evenly? AR was avg 31...why not share more of the offensive load so they both have more energy on defense..?

These are good points, and I always hesitate to make similar points because I actually think pretty highly of Luka, but in comparisons with guys of his tier, it's not out of bounds to bring them up. There is a difference in how Luka interacts with his teammates and how Shai does, and the impact it has on making their teammates better.

Luka is similar to Westbrook/Harden (or even LeBron if we want to frame it positively with a champion) in the sense that on the court, he keeps his teammates on a short leash. He doesn't need much from them (to his credit), and so those players become limited or stunted in their development. Luka just needs them to be a release valve as he orchestrates everything, so the evolution of his teammates ends up being either 3pt shooting or catching lobs. The evolution of his teammates isn't significant, but he gets full credit for any contributions they make by virtue of how involved he is in setting everything up for them.

The way Shai makes his teammates better is a bit of a slow simmer and harder to quantify. Jalen Williams has developed with hardly any limitations to his ball handling, passing, drive game, shooting, defense, etc. Unfortunately for Shai's standing in these debates, that gets weaponized against him, because Jalen Williams becomes so good at everything that his evolution is considered completely independent of Shai. It becomes "Shai has this talent next to him" without any regard for how he might have influenced the development of that talent. I feel like we're seeing similar things with Ajay Mitchell now.

I don't deny the vast disparity in talent between Shai's team now and Luka's team now, but Shai's leadership and work ethic has been a strong catalyst for the development of every Thunder player. Admittedly, it's hard to quantify how much he is helping, but he generally wants his guys to become the best version of themselves, not simply a release valve for him when defenses collapse on him.

Jalen Williams gives credit to Shai for helping him become the player he is:

Watch on YouTube

People always noted how Duncan had "parker, manu, kawhi..." as help. But never remember the style and quality of leadership of Duncan allowed those second rounders to blossom and develop next to him.

I wont cite names but many peers of duncan's caliber were Just sterile soil for new talent to develop and this made Duncan the greatest of his generation

[Archx]

you can't say Luka is universally loved by his teammates and coaches...we got guys like Rick C and KP and even Din and Brunson saying there were people that didnt really get along with luka...either because they felt like they didnt get the ball enough, or that he was aloof like like Kobe or that he was just mean to these guys when they were on the bench...we have seen luka curse out his whole bench... NOW WHO WANTS THE BOSS CURSING THEM OUT IN TV....luka has embarrassed teammates when they do something stupid on the court...also it's not leadership showing up out of shape year after year...come on man. LUKA IS A MERCURIAL talent but he is not a leader....yet... luka is your best player but he hasn't shown real leadership.

one thing I will tell you thats obvious this year...look at ARs numbers when luka plays or doesn't play...so I ask is it better to have luka run everything or would the lakers be better if when Luka and AR shared the offensive load more evenly? AR was avg 31...why not share more of the offensive load so they both have more energy on defense..?

Current teammates is what I was referring to with Luka. Also, using 10 game samples with Luka and AR when there's only one ball to go around. That's not all up to Luka. Also, I think that will develop as the season goes on between them. Plus LeBron coming back. That will be up to JJ to figure out more than the players. Lastly, I'm not even a big Luka fan in general. I think way too many people on here assume every time a person argues on behalf or against someone/something on here they are a fan of one thing and/or hate the other. I think Luka had the chance to open a new page by going to the Lakers and that he will also grow up as time goes by. I don't like all the complaining he does but leadership goes way beyond that. Generally speaking, guys who succeed as clear #1 players are also good leaders.

I hope you're aware that CobraCommander is on a legendary smear campaign against Doncic after the OKC won. So please consider that before believing anything he says. He's straight up lying and making stuff up to prop up SGA and i don't think it's necessary to be so insecure to go to all these lengths. I don't know if it bothers him that Luka is European or what but it's ridiculous reading his posts.

There are countless articles and videos of teammates and coaches praising him of how good of a person he is. He recently even took Lakers to freaking Porsche meeting so everyone got to drives those cars on a sport track lol....

Just to give you few examples, here is what Brunson said.

“That’s my brother,” Brunson said of Dončić. “We got drafted together. I’ve been watching him grow since meeting him for the first time, seeing the player he is now. He’s gotten better and better each year to the point where he’s a top-five player, an MVP candidate, year in and year out, so whenever I get a chance to share the court with him, either with him or against him, it’s always been special. I’ve got nothing but love for him.”

Here is ShammGod talking after the trade, ex Mavs trainer.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jwB3SS4zrwk

This is Naji talking about him how he is a teammate and a friend.

Watch on YouTube

[Raps in 4]

if you dont think SGA is better than Luka when SGA came in at the same time and has won a MVP, FMVP, won the scoring time and a ring...has been voted as ahead of Luka on mvp voting for 4 straight years then what does SGA have to do to be considered better than Luka?


in a vacuum I dont think Luka is better than SGA and to some peoples surprise, I dont think SGA is better than Luka in a vacuum.

from a skillset perspective individually they are a wash.

the thing that I consider is that WHILE Luka gets more rebounds and assist, those assist and rebound dont equate to winning more games...especially when compared to SGAs production...so honestly... Lukas additional assist and rebounds are more like Westbrooks...in a different system you wouldn't ask Luka to get that many assist or rebounds if it doesn't make the team win more... and okc won the most games in the league for a few years while also being the youngest team, they have great chemistry MAYBE because more guys are involved in the office.

the fact is, we haven't seen a player like Luka win a championship. Harden is the closest proxy but is even more efficient and Westbrook has had similar counting stats but is less efficient....both are mvps but neither are champions...

but with me saying...for the most part all things are equal from a basketball perspective...

SGA is miles ahead of luka when it comes to tangible and intangible leadership

tangible leadership...sga is never giving the coaches, gms, Owners, refs, fans, or his teammates any reason to be upset with him...Luka has pissed off all of these people at some point..and it has been documented. example...Luka has been thrown out of a finals game and in doing so, he pissed off everyone on earth because it may have cost his team a chance to win a title.

intangible leadership
SGA shows up every game in shape and drives a culture of togetherness...which has obviously led to winning.


SGAs teammates love him and let him lead... and you can't say thats true about any other superstar in the nba at this level.

Most casual fans had never even heard of SGA until last season. Hell, most casual fans probably didn't even know OKC had an NBA team. It's the small market effect.

Luka has a flashier game and now plays for the Lakers. Shai could win mtiple titles and Luka could remain ringless, and the perception will still be that Luka is better.

[Mephariel]

I still think Luka has a higher ceiling. But Shai is just a much more consistent performer.

You can attribute a lot Shai's success to just having a great team built around because of Sam Presti's genius. But I think Shai also deserves a lot of credit for being a big contributor the culture that OKC has. His professionalism and consistency on and off the court carries over to the rest of the squad and makes them great.

Luka still has a long way to go in terms of intangibles. His behaviour, especially towards the referees, is akin to that of a bratty child who was denied of the toy they wanted. And I think it's a fair question to ask if Luka will ever reach the level of maturity he needs to reach his full potential.

You basically said it. For me, the professionalism, defense, and consistency edge cannot be understated.

I think Shai operates at around 70-90 percent of Luka's ceiling consistently on offense. But he plays better defense, leads by example by being in shape, has less mental lapses at the line, yells at the refs less, and has great chemistry with his team.

[Optms]

Well yeah. Outside of Wemby, I am taking Shai to start a team. This isn't even a debate to me and I love Luka. Luka still has to prove he's better than Jokic/Giannis, which he hasn't so far.

[Mephariel]

Put Luka on the Thunder and see what happens.

What happens? Luka is great on offense, but so is Shai. Defensively and chemistry wise, they take a hit.

Did Dallas take a hit with Luka when they defeated the Clippers, OKC and Minnesota in the 2023 playoffs?

Yes. And their defense definitely took a hit in the Finals against Boston, when the Celtics targeted him time and time again. Even Kidd said it during the series that the only way to stopped it was for him to play defense.

Luka was also atrocious against the Wolves last year in the first round on defense. He was bad on offense too.