Rudy Gobert: Future DPOY

[pace31]

[greg4012]

Birdman is a better shotblocker than anyone on Utah (outside of Gobert), so your proclamation is wrong off the bat. Further, you mention Whiteside grabbing rebounds over Birdman as if he has even shared one single minute on the court with him. You clearly don't watch Heat games, at all. Whiteside has probably played alongside Bosh (albeit a clearly unhealthy Bosh) more minutes than he has with Haslem. While Bosh is not a crazy shot blocker (still capable and in the same realm as Favors), he is a capable overall rim protector and served in that role for Miami for the past couple seasons (we had decent success, no?). In terms of rebounding, both Bosh and Haslem's total rebound % numbers for the past couple seasons are very similar to those of Favors, so I don't get this huge difference you're trying to portray. Whiteside does have that advantage of being the only real rebounder when the Heat play small ball though (a recent thing after Bosh's health scare).

How the hell is Bosh even remotely close to Favors in terms of blocking and rebounding? Remember, the Heat are a very bad rebounding and blocking team, Utah is 2nd in blocks and a top 5 rebounding team, and look at how they still compare between the two:

Season stats outside of parenthesis, and career average in parenthesis.

Bosh:
PER36: 7.2rpg (8.6rpg) .6bpg (1.1bpg)
ADV: 12.2 TRB% (14.2) 1.4 BLK% (2.3)

Favors:
PER36: 9.5rpg (10.3rpg) 1.9bpg (1.9bpg)
ADV: 15.4 TRB% (16.7) 4.3 BLK% (4.3)

If Favors wasn't on such good rebounding teams over the last 5 yrs, it would be much more lobsided.

The career averages are not far off at all. Miami's system (never go for offensive boards to instead favor getting back on D) has surely had some effect on Bosh (check his pre-Miami numbers). Add in the fact that both Haslem and Birdman have had rebound percentages very comparable to those of Kanter and Favors, and it just seems like this rhetoric your fanbase creates (all hail hawaiian's obsessive slanting of all things gobert) for comparison's sake is a bit off


Overall, not sure which fanbase is more defensive and sensitive when it comes to their big, Miami or Utah. Both of us get a little ridiculous

[Ruckusmh]

Just happy for both Utah and Miami. It's not often you can add a great young player without a top 10 pick, especially at the C position.

[dautjazz]

Birdman is a better shotblocker than anyone on Utah (outside of Gobert), so your proclamation is wrong off the bat. Further, you mention Whiteside grabbing rebounds over Birdman as if he has even shared one single minute on the court with him. You clearly don't watch Heat games, at all. Whiteside has probably played alongside Bosh (albeit a clearly unhealthy Bosh) more minutes than he has with Haslem. While Bosh is not a crazy shot blocker (still capable and in the same realm as Favors), he is a capable overall rim protector and served in that role for Miami for the past couple seasons (we had decent success, no?). In terms of rebounding, both Bosh and Haslem's total rebound % numbers for the past couple seasons are very similar to those of Favors, so I don't get this huge difference you're trying to portray. Whiteside does have that advantage of being the only real rebounder when the Heat play small ball though (a recent thing after Bosh's health scare).

How the hell is Bosh even remotely close to Favors in terms of blocking and rebounding? Remember, the Heat are a very bad rebounding and blocking team, Utah is 2nd in blocks and a top 5 rebounding team, and look at how they still compare between the two:

Season stats outside of parenthesis, and career average in parenthesis.

Bosh:
PER36: 7.2rpg (8.6rpg) .6bpg (1.1bpg)
ADV: 12.2 TRB% (14.2) 1.4 BLK% (2.3)

Favors:
PER36: 9.5rpg (10.3rpg) 1.9bpg (1.9bpg)
ADV: 15.4 TRB% (16.7) 4.3 BLK% (4.3)

If Favors wasn't on such good rebounding teams over the last 5 yrs, it would be much more lobsided.

The career averages are not far off at all. Miami's system (never go for offensive boards to instead favor getting back on D) has surely had some effect on Bosh (check his pre-Miami numbers). Add in the fact that both Haslem and Birdman have had rebound percentages very comparable to those of Kanter and Favors, and it just seems like this rhetoric your fanbase creates (all hail hawaiian's obsessive slanting of all things gobert) for comparison's sake is a bit off


Overall, not sure which fanbase is more defensive and sensitive when it comes to their big, Miami or Utah. Both of us get a little ridiculous

You're picking straws. Utah is a great rebounding team, Miami is not, it benefits Bosh, not Favors, and I don't see how the numbers are really that close, Favors TRB% is 17.6% higher for his career, and Favors has always been on better rebounding teams.

[greg4012]

Just happy for both Utah and Miami. It's not often you can add a great young player without a top 10 pick, especially at the C position.

What's wild is that over the past 2 years, as a Miami fan desperate for true center help, I REALLY wanted the Heat to find a way to trade for Gobert. This was prior to his breakout and due to the fact that the Jazz already had frontcourt depth. Crazy how Whiteside fell on our laps and Gobert emerged to the point of making Kanter expendable.

[greg4012]

How the hell is Bosh even remotely close to Favors in terms of blocking and rebounding? Remember, the Heat are a very bad rebounding and blocking team, Utah is 2nd in blocks and a top 5 rebounding team, and look at how they still compare between the two:

Season stats outside of parenthesis, and career average in parenthesis.

Bosh:
PER36: 7.2rpg (8.6rpg) .6bpg (1.1bpg)
ADV: 12.2 TRB% (14.2) 1.4 BLK% (2.3)

Favors:
PER36: 9.5rpg (10.3rpg) 1.9bpg (1.9bpg)
ADV: 15.4 TRB% (16.7) 4.3 BLK% (4.3)

If Favors wasn't on such good rebounding teams over the last 5 yrs, it would be much more lobsided.

The career averages are not far off at all. Miami's system (never go for offensive boards to instead favor getting back on D) has surely had some effect on Bosh (check his pre-Miami numbers). Add in the fact that both Haslem and Birdman have had rebound percentages very comparable to those of Kanter and Favors, and it just seems like this rhetoric your fanbase creates (all hail hawaiian's obsessive slanting of all things gobert) for comparison's sake is a bit off


Overall, not sure which fanbase is more defensive and sensitive when it comes to their big, Miami or Utah. Both of us get a little ridiculous

You're picking straws. Utah is a great rebounding team, Miami is not, it benefits Bosh, not Favors, and I don't see how the numbers are really that close, Favors TRB% is 17.6% higher for his career, and Favors has always been on better rebounding teams.

That's not an expression and your analytic approach is extremely flawed. But, it's all good. This back and forth does nothing

[Ruckusmh]

Just happy for both Utah and Miami. It's not often you can add a great young player without a top 10 pick, especially at the C position.

What's wild is that over the past 2 years, as a Miami fan desperate for true center help, I REALLY wanted the Heat to find a way to trade for Gobert. This was prior to his breakout and due to the fact that the Jazz already had frontcourt depth. Crazy how Whiteside fell on our laps and Gobert emerged to the point of making Kanter expendable.

If Wade and Bosh are ever healthy and playing at a high level at the same time again the Heat could actually contend. THAT is the real benefit of getting good players for nothing.

[dautjazz]

The career averages are not far off at all. Miami's system (never go for offensive boards to instead favor getting back on D) has surely had some effect on Bosh (check his pre-Miami numbers). Add in the fact that both Haslem and Birdman have had rebound percentages very comparable to those of Kanter and Favors, and it just seems like this rhetoric your fanbase creates (all hail hawaiian's obsessive slanting of all things gobert) for comparison's sake is a bit off


Overall, not sure which fanbase is more defensive and sensitive when it comes to their big, Miami or Utah. Both of us get a little ridiculous

You're picking straws. Utah is a great rebounding team, Miami is not, it benefits Bosh, not Favors, and I don't see how the numbers are really that close, Favors TRB% is 17.6% higher for his career, and Favors has always been on better rebounding teams.

That's not an expression and your analytic approach is extremely flawed. But, it's all good. This back and forth does nothing

How is my analytic approach flawed? You didn't provide a single stat. It's ridiculous to say that Favors and Bosh are in the same realm when Favors is about almost 3 times the shotblocker right now, and over 20% better in rebounding as well. Those are simply big margins, and if you factor the teams they play with, it makes them even further apart.

[StocktonShorts]

Just happy for both Utah and Miami. It's not often you can add a great young player without a top 10 pick, especially at the C position.

Yep. I'm not sure why every thread like this devolves into a pissing contest over two players.

[jazzfan1971]

2 players?

Usually 4-6 guys. Len, Whiteside, Tavares, Nurkic, whoever else wants in the conversation...

Some interesting bigs out there to be sure.

[Stoked]

2 players?

Usually 4-6 guys. Len, Whiteside, Tavares, Nurkic, whoever else wants in the conversation...

Some interesting bigs out there to be sure.

It's good to see. League could use a big dose of new defensive bigs.

[greg4012]

You're picking straws. Utah is a great rebounding team, Miami is not, it benefits Bosh, not Favors, and I don't see how the numbers are really that close, Favors TRB% is 17.6% higher for his career, and Favors has always been on better rebounding teams.

That's not an expression and your analytic approach is extremely flawed. But, it's all good. This back and forth does nothing

How is my analytic approach flawed? You didn't provide a single stat. It's ridiculous to say that Favors and Bosh are in the same realm when Favors is about almost 3 times the shotblocker right now, and over 20% better in rebounding as well. Those are simply big margins, and if you factor the teams they play with, it makes them even further apart.

Not gonna get into a statistical theory argument with you but you're doing a lot of stuff with numbers without much thought to the statistical integrity of such.

As for tangible numbers that show that the difference between Favors and Bosh as rim protectors is negligible -- last season Bosh's opponent's fg% at rim was 53%, Favors' was 51.3%.

[dautjazz]

That's not an expression and your analytic approach is extremely flawed. But, it's all good. This back and forth does nothing

How is my analytic approach flawed? You didn't provide a single stat. It's ridiculous to say that Favors and Bosh are in the same realm when Favors is about almost 3 times the shotblocker right now, and over 20% better in rebounding as well. Those are simply big margins, and if you factor the teams they play with, it makes them even further apart.

Not gonna get into a statistical theory argument with you but you're doing a lot of stuff with numbers without much thought to the statistical integrity of such.

As for tangible numbers that show that the difference between Favors and Bosh as rim protectors is negligible -- last season Bosh's opponent's fg% at rim was 53%, Favors' was 51.3%.

Last season? Why would your bring up last year's? What are this season's numbers?

EDIT: Found a better source
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player ... D_RIM*GE*4

I filtered things a little, => 20mpg, => 20 games played, and 4 FGA at rim
Favors is 6th with 45.5%, Bosh is around 60th with 55.3%. Favors is +.87 Points Saved PER36, Bosh is -2 ppg. So Bosh is a negative impact on defense this year (at the rim), while Favors is a positive.

BTW Gobert is 1st with 38%., 4.16 ppg saved PER36.

[greg4012]

How is my analytic approach flawed? You didn't provide a single stat. It's ridiculous to say that Favors and Bosh are in the same realm when Favors is about almost 3 times the shotblocker right now, and over 20% better in rebounding as well. Those are simply big margins, and if you factor the teams they play with, it makes them even further apart.

Not gonna get into a statistical theory argument with you but you're doing a lot of stuff with numbers without much thought to the statistical integrity of such.

As for tangible numbers that show that the difference between Favors and Bosh as rim protectors is negligible -- last season Bosh's opponent's fg% at rim was 53%, Favors' was 51.3%.

Last season? Why would your bring up last year's? What are this season's numbers?

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/

Favors is 9th with 45.5%, Bosh is 55.3%. Favors is +.87 Points Saved PER36, Bosh is -2 ppg. So Bosh is a negative impact on defense this year (at the rim), while Favors is a positive.

Screw context then. Forgot the fact that he played half the season with blood clots on his lungs. Or that Favors played a large amount of the season alongside Gobert, whereas Bosh and Whiteside had very limited time together. It's just a dumb comparison to get into the nitty gritty of because there is so much that makes it incomplete, but the HawaiiJazzFan contingency wants to make it their calling card

[dautjazz]

Not gonna get into a statistical theory argument with you but you're doing a lot of stuff with numbers without much thought to the statistical integrity of such.

As for tangible numbers that show that the difference between Favors and Bosh as rim protectors is negligible -- last season Bosh's opponent's fg% at rim was 53%, Favors' was 51.3%.

Last season? Why would your bring up last year's? What are this season's numbers?

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/

Favors is 9th with 45.5%, Bosh is 55.3%. Favors is +.87 Points Saved PER36, Bosh is -2 ppg. So Bosh is a negative impact on defense this year (at the rim), while Favors is a positive.

Screw context then. Forgot the fact that he played half the season with blood clots on his lungs. Or that Favors played a large amount of the season alongside Gobert, whereas Bosh and Whiteside had very limited time together. It's just a dumb comparison to get into the nitty gritty of because there is so much that makes it incomplete, but the HawaiiJazzFan contingency wants to make it their calling card

I must be missing something, last I heard Bosh felt pretty fine all season, then he started feeling bad during the All-Star break. Bosh averaged 20.3ppg in 36.3mpg his last 10 games, sure doesn't look to me like someone who was limited severely by blood clots. Try again. Also you talk about Whiteside and Gobert, well you fail to mention that until the All-Star break, Favors had to deal with Kanter. Try 57.3 FG%/allowed -2ppg saved PER36, only Diaw and Young have been worse. 49 games @ 27mpg a big enough sample?

[greg4012]

Last season? Why would your bring up last year's? What are this season's numbers?

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/

Favors is 9th with 45.5%, Bosh is 55.3%. Favors is +.87 Points Saved PER36, Bosh is -2 ppg. So Bosh is a negative impact on defense this year (at the rim), while Favors is a positive.

Screw context then. Forgot the fact that he played half the season with blood clots on his lungs. Or that Favors played a large amount of the season alongside Gobert, whereas Bosh and Whiteside had very limited time together. It's just a dumb comparison to get into the nitty gritty of because there is so much that makes it incomplete, but the HawaiiJazzFan contingency wants to make it their calling card

I must be missing something, last I heard Bosh felt pretty fine all season, then he started feeling bad during the All-Star break. Bosh averaged 20.3ppg in 36.3mpg his last 10 games, sure doesn't look to me like someone who was limited severely by blood clots. Try again.

Can't deal with ignorance. Out

[dautjazz]

Screw context then. Forgot the fact that he played half the season with blood clots on his lungs. Or that Favors played a large amount of the season alongside Gobert, whereas Bosh and Whiteside had very limited time together. It's just a dumb comparison to get into the nitty gritty of because there is so much that makes it incomplete, but the HawaiiJazzFan contingency wants to make it their calling card

I must be missing something, last I heard Bosh felt pretty fine all season, then he started feeling bad during the All-Star break. Bosh averaged 20.3ppg in 36.3mpg his last 10 games, sure doesn't look to me like someone who was limited severely by blood clots. Try again.

Can't deal with ignorance. Out

Ignorance? You're telling me that Bosh was suffering of blood clots in February 3 when he had 34pts in 34mins, or 32pts in 37mins on Feb 9th? If blood clots have altered his defense this season, don't you think he wouldn't have been able to score 20.3ppg and average 36.3mpg in his last 10 games? This is the NBA, you can't play with that. I'm not sure when the clots started, but I assure you he wasn't suffering much earlier than when he got hospitalized.

[Johnny Firpo]

Giannis, Schroeder and Gobert... The 2013 draft shows you perfectly that European players still have a stigma on them. All three of those guys were elite athletes, who should have went in the top 5 in that otherwise abysmal draft. Most GM's failed spectacularly that night. Also, another lesson that you should always go for the high upside players. We could have drafted any of those three, and dropped the ball in a major way. Nelson actually wanted Giannis, but Cuban talked him out of it...

[Litany]

Screw context then. Forgot the fact that he played half the season with blood clots on his lungs. Or that Favors played a large amount of the season alongside Gobert, whereas Bosh and Whiteside had very limited time together. It's just a dumb comparison to get into the nitty gritty of because there is so much that makes it incomplete, but the HawaiiJazzFan contingency wants to make it their calling card

I must be missing something, last I heard Bosh felt pretty fine all season, then he started feeling bad during the All-Star break. Bosh averaged 20.3ppg in 36.3mpg his last 10 games, sure doesn't look to me like someone who was limited severely by blood clots. Try again.

Can't deal with ignorance. Out

Didn't take much to get you to concede

[dautjazz]

I must be missing something, last I heard Bosh felt pretty fine all season, then he started feeling bad during the All-Star break. Bosh averaged 20.3ppg in 36.3mpg his last 10 games, sure doesn't look to me like someone who was limited severely by blood clots. Try again.

Can't deal with ignorance. Out

Didn't take much to get you to concede