2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[bondom34]

Here are the top 10 in usage and assist%. If the two stats are not correlated then you would expect to see an average assist% ranking of around 220 here. The average is massively lower at 70, which means usage and assist% are strongly correlated.

1.Westbrook-1
2.Cousins-44
3.Embiid-132
4.Derozan-103
5.Harden-2
6.I Thomas-24
7.A Davis-207
8.K Leonard-131
9.Lillard-51
10.Wall-4

I never said he'd win MVP. I said you were wrong in your assertions which you were.

You just showed 10 players leading in usage, with ranks in the 100s in assist percentage. If you plot that you get this.

http://imgur.com/a/45ASL

If you'd care to explain this trend line please do.

There's no correlation there, you can just own it. You're misusing and or misunderstanding statistics here, usage has zero to do with assists and your insisting on it isn't making it true.

The explanation is that your graph is completely wrong. There are about 440 players in the sample. The X and Y axis should both be 440. All of the points are in the bottom left quadrant, which is exactly what you would expect if usage and assist% were strongly correlated.

This is starting to get weird. You are absolutely wrong about this, but don't appear to be capable of seeing it.

I plotted the 10 you gave, which have 0 correlation, you insisting they are is wrong.

[Hero]

Game like tonight shows why LBJ is way more valuable than anyone else.

[laika]

Game like tonight shows why LBJ is way more valuable than anyone else.

Yea. I'm sure missing their 2nd and 4th best player also had nothing to do with it.

Q- How would the Warriors do without Curry, Green and Thompson?

A- Lousy to terrible.

[K_chile22]

Game like tonight shows why LBJ is way more valuable than anyone else.

How in the world LBJ gets credit for resting while JH an RW have played every game makes 0 damn sense

[K_chile22]

The Rockets/Thunder would more than likely be far worse than the Cavs sans LeBron if Russ or Harden sat... We just don't get to see it because those guys don't get days off, if you ask me, that makes them more valuable

[Rastas]

Yeah if Harden or Russ took a night off - their teams wouldn't know what to do with themselves - where's our ball hog whoops I mean our number 1 guy who always wants the ball.

[Impuniti]

Yeah if Harden or Russ took a night off - their teams wouldn't know what to do with themselves - where's our ball hog whoops I mean our number 1 guy who always wants the ball.

They would be doing worse than Cavs without their ballhog if you removed their number #1 player from all 3 teams. This argument is just silly. If we start ranking MVP players on how good they are when they're injured, then we may as well look at bottom feeder teams. Guise Embiid is defs the MVP!!11 He literally would be by this awful metric since his teams win %, def %, and off % overall raise far higher than every other player in the league.

Also as someone said, they're missing 3/5 starters, lets slow down. I still think Bron should be 2-3rd in the MVP race, but not for this terrible reason.

[K_chile22]

Yeah if Harden or Russ took a night off - their teams wouldn't know what to do with themselves - where's our ball hog whoops I mean our number 1 guy who always wants the ball.

.... If that's your take wouldn't that also apply to LeBron? Or is it one of those things that only applies to everyone except the player you like?

[Rastas]

Yeah if Harden or Russ took a night off - their teams wouldn't know what to do with themselves - where's our ball hog whoops I mean our number 1 guy who always wants the ball.

.... If that's your take wouldn't that also apply to LeBron? Or is it one of those things that only applies to everyone except the player you like?

Well honestly I said it in jest and was thinking back a few years when a lot of posters wanted to give Dirk the MVP for missing a dozen or more games when the Mav's couldn't win without him - guess its a different story each year to degrade Lebron.

Anyway I have Harden leading but Lebron is still in stricking distance - looking forward to how it all turns out.

[Veyron]

Game like tonight shows why LBJ is way more valuable than anyone else.

How in the world LBJ gets credit for resting while JH an RW have played every game makes 0 damn sense

Exactly , **** those who have days off, rest days.

[QPR]

Harden's shooting clips right across the board are actually quite similar, and his turnovers are higher. Crazy what a few extra wins and a suitable system/coach can do for the perception of someone's efficiency.

What does Harden being similar to his career efficiency have to do with comparing him to Westbrook? His individual efficiency is miles better, even if it's not miles better than it usually is for him. He's also having his most efficient scoring season since 2014 while averaging over 11 assists.

I said shooting clips. I'd expect Harden's TS% to be consistently high as half of his field goal attempts are threes and he is outstanding at getting to the line and converting once he is there.

You've taken my post as a shot at Harden which it is not (he is clearly the MVP right now). I am just pointing out the usual criticisms of Westbrook that he turns it over too much and shoots poorly are not that far removed from Harden, who is widely and correctly regarded as one of the most efficient offensive players in the league. In fact I think you could make the argument that, given what Westbrook needs to do within the OKC offense to keep them competitive, he is actually far more efficient than you'd think.

[jc23]

Game like tonight shows why LBJ is way more valuable than anyone else.

well he is still the best player in the world but plenty of players have been more valuable. The cavs are plenty talented outside of lebron. Even the team on the floor last night was on par in talent with the current 7th seed in the east lol.

[QPR]

Those 3 are all valid arguments for why Westbrook's impact isn't as high as Westbrook fans want to believe. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss arguments you don't like.
We've already been over usage and turnover percentage. Westbrook trails massively behind the other candidates in scoring efficiency also.

TS%-
Durant- .653
Curry- .632
Leonard- .617
James- .616
Harden- .615
Westbrook-.542(below the league average)

Also, willing your team into the playoffs has historically been given nearly zero credit in the MVP race. You nearly always need to lead your team to a top 5 record in the league.

Of course Westbrook trails in offensive efficiency. Every other player you've listed has significantly more help offensively, and doesn't have to shoulder the same workload. He doesn't have the luxury of shooters spacing the floor, or even a reliable second scorer.

I don't think he is the MVP as previously stated, but there is a narrative around Westbrook (Durant leaving, averaging a triple double) that has never been there for candidates outside the top few teams in the league. If anyone is ever going to win an MVP on a 5/6 seed it will be him.

I'm happy to hear any arguments, but this all started because you sarcastically pointed out his shooting and turnovers in a game he controlled from start to finish. That is just lazy criticism. The unique reality with Westbrook is he can shoot poorly, turn it over a bunch and still be by far the most influential guy on the floor.

[Screwston]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

[sophie23]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


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[Screwston]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

The gap is still the same

[K_chile22]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

I guarantee you if RW and JH play all 82 the voters will give them credit for it.

Value is accumulative. The more games you're available for the more value you build

[sophie23]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

The gap is still the same

No its not. At the moment.
February was great for lebron by numbers. On mvp tracker he"s moved to 3rd. The same here, people starts argueing that lebron is moving up.
While james harden lately was having nights off like shooting 17,30,20,18%
And lbj fabruary ts is like 70,7%.

James harden is frontrunner but lately the gap is closing and you cant say its the same.





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[sophie23]

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

I guarantee you if RW and JH play all 82 the voters will give them credit for it.

Value is accumulative. The more games you're available for the more value you build

Yeah value is accumulative. But playing 76 games and 82 has almost the same builded value in the case of mvp award.
Because argument should be strong if narrative to be started, and just few game less has no value itself to be change minder.





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[Starboy]

Lebron has no case over Harden.

LeBron rests while "others" put in work every night. People just need to stop arguing LeBron's case.

Its not just that JH n WB are playing better seasons than him, its also that they put in work every night, its a regular season award afterall.

Rests? Playing like 37,5 minutes per game.
Lebron 10' and 13' 6 games left and still mvp. Now its 4 days and last one out of an illness.
Voters will not look if sb has played 76 or 82 games.
Stop argueing? People starts argueing now because the gap is closing.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

It's "arguing"..