Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[1993Playoffs]

No he didnt, all the great 80s teams were old and he always had the best team in his era

The only thing old here is your incorrect argument

You really think the 90s had better teams than the 80s?

You dont think MJ had the best team for all of his titles?

[MartinToVaught]

Watch the Sonics - Bulls finals and tell me that isn't one of the most intense, competative and high quality series of games you've seen.

Seriously? It pales in comparison to the 1984 Finals, the 1988 Finals, the 1994 Finals (underrated), the 2013 Finals, and the 2016 Finals... and that's just looking at Finals series.

I will say that MJ was lucky that George Karl was dumb enough to wait until the Sonics were down 3-0 to let Payton guard him. And no, it's not hindsight: Payton was begging to guard Jordan at the time and Karl ignored him until it was too late.

If Payton was guarding MJ from the beginning of the series, the Sonics may very well have won and there'd be no "6 rings, 6-for-6 in the Finals" talking point for the Jordan marketing machine to use against all other GOAT candidates. Jordan's numbers don't lie:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/

[snaquille oatmeal]

Has anybody mentioned today's rules yet? Would Prime Jordan be better playing with today's rules?

In Jordan's own words, no.

The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

"I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-26-wizards-hornets.htm

I'm was assuming that the OPs threat tittle was referring to individual defender competition and not team defensive schemes. I was referring to hand checking and so forth

[OdomFan]

No he didnt, all the great 80s teams were old and he always had the best team in his era

The only thing old here is your incorrect argument

You really think the 90s had better teams than the 80s?

You dont think MJ had the best team for all of his titles?

I don't think you watched 90s basketball. 90s had way more talented teams spread across the league so yes it was better. The league in general evolved for the better compared to the 80s that was dominated by Bird and Magic majority of the time.

[Pennebaker]

You ask that question like it is an established fact. It isn't. Jordan didn't win titles in the 80's (the era of the strongest competition in his career). Jordan won titles exclusively in the post-Magic*, post-Bird, post-Kareem 1990's. His stiffest competition in the East was a young Shaq in Orlando. Everywhere he faced guys that proved that they could never get it done regardless of if they were facing MJ or anybody else (Barkley, Malone, Payton, Ewing, Stockton, etc.)

Sprinkle on top of that the era of league expansion i.e. an era where several new terrible teams were added. It was also the era where the league decided that the game was becoming too boring and so they legislated a shorter three point line! How convenient for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen! With the shorter distance all of a sudden sub-par three point shooters like MJ and Pip became three-point assassins. This (and Rodman) was why Chicago won 72 games 1996.

In my opinion, because of the unexpected early retirements of Bird (back) and Magic (front), if the 1990's didn't have Jordan and the Bulls the NBA probably would've been on the verge of folding just like they were in the late 1970s. In other words, the 90's wasn't an era of great competition.

*Magic of course faced Michael Jordan in an NBA Finals series in 1991, but by this time Magic had HIV, Kareem had just retired, and the overall #1 pick from 1983 - James Worthy - was injured.

How insane is this logic. So all teams post MJ era never faced Bird Celtics and Magic/Kareem Lakers hence they are also weak.

Is this the type of hocus pocus logic we have gotten into to discredit MJ?

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with actually facing Bird/McHale/Parrish and Magic/Kareem/Worthy, but with facing teams at least as talented as that. Michael Jordan never had to face stacked teams of that caliber in the 90s. Today, obviously, stars are facing loaded teams left and right, so that isn't an issue. But Michael Jordan dominated in the dead era of the 90's where the only loaded team around was the Chicago Bulls.

Drexler's Blazers only had one hall of famer on it. Clyde.
Barkley's Suns only had one hall of famer on it. Charles.
Payton's Sonics only had one hall of famer on it. Gary.

You get the idea. Top teams just were not as talented in the 1990's. And even Stockton and Malone's Jazz were just no match for the hall of fame trio of Jordan, Pippen and Rodman.

[OdomFan]

So now you're saying it's a bad thing that majority of the teams in the 90s weren't stacked? Give me a break. The Sonics, Blazers, Pacers, Magic, Suns, Jazz and Knicks may not have had multiple Hall of Famers but they had All Stars and quality basketball players in general who kept the league competitive and exciting throughout the whole decade. I'll take that over the super team paradise league any day of the week.

[mysticOscar]

You ask that question like it is an established fact. It isn't. Jordan didn't win titles in the 80's (the era of the strongest competition in his career). Jordan won titles exclusively in the post-Magic*, post-Bird, post-Kareem 1990's. His stiffest competition in the East was a young Shaq in Orlando. Everywhere he faced guys that proved that they could never get it done regardless of if they were facing MJ or anybody else (Barkley, Malone, Payton, Ewing, Stockton, etc.)

Sprinkle on top of that the era of league expansion i.e. an era where several new terrible teams were added. It was also the era where the league decided that the game was becoming too boring and so they legislated a shorter three point line! How convenient for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen! With the shorter distance all of a sudden sub-par three point shooters like MJ and Pip became three-point assassins. This (and Rodman) was why Chicago won 72 games 1996.

In my opinion, because of the unexpected early retirements of Bird (back) and Magic (front), if the 1990's didn't have Jordan and the Bulls the NBA probably would've been on the verge of folding just like they were in the late 1970s. In other words, the 90's wasn't an era of great competition.

*Magic of course faced Michael Jordan in an NBA Finals series in 1991, but by this time Magic had HIV, Kareem had just retired, and the overall #1 pick from 1983 - James Worthy - was injured.

How insane is this logic. So all teams post MJ era never faced Bird Celtics and Magic/Kareem Lakers hence they are also weak.

Is this the type of hocus pocus logic we have gotten into to discredit MJ?

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with actually facing Bird/McHale/Parrish and Magic/Kareem/Worthy, but with facing teams at least as talented as that. Michael Jordan never had to face stacked teams of that caliber in the 90s. Today, obviously, stars are facing loaded teams left and right, so that isn't an issue. But Michael Jordan dominated in the dead era of the 90's where the only loaded team around was the Chicago Bulls.

Drexler's Blazers only had one hall of famer on it. Clyde.
Barkley's Suns only had one hall of famer on it. Charles.
Payton's Sonics only had one hall of famer on it. Gary.

You get the idea. Top teams just were not as talented in the 1990's. And even Stockton and Malone's Jazz were just no match for the hall of fame trio of Jordan, Pippen and Rodman.

Just because your too young to remember/or know a lot of players (outside of top 30 of all time) doesnt mean there wasnt any good players. You have so much recency bias its ridiculous.

Drexler by himself? Heard of Terry Porter? Cliff Robinson?

Charles by himself? Heard of Kevin Johnson? Dan Marjele?

Payton by himself? Heard of Shawn Kemp? Detlef Shrempf?


All these teams also had great role players that u would have no idea about.

List of those players would had higher recognition if the Bulls just didnt dominate the 90s as much as they did.....but hey the Bulls won 6 championships in 8 years....2 3 peats...must be because of weak competition logic is just such a weak excuse to discredit MJ

LBJ fans logic: competition was good in 80s up to 91...then it went weak...then went good again in 1999.

MJ must be the luckiest player that ever stepped on the court. Better thread title should be "Why is MJ so favoured by the gods and LBJ so hated?".

[LakerLegend]

LeBron:

1. Has played on Super-Teams since 2011

2. In a historically weak conference that has had no legitimate challengers to his teams since 2010

3. In a league where the defensive rules have been softened to let perimeter players run amok

[Greed]

Interesting the double standards people use to try and knock Jordan and prop up LeBron

"Jordan went 1-9 before Pippen", then these same people go and make excuses like "LeBron has no help", "That other team was STACKED" Ignoring how Jordan had no help and was up against all time great Celtics teams

"Jordan didn't win until Pistons/Lakers got old and Kareem was out", then go and say "LeBron single-handedly beat a mini-dynasty Pistons in 07"(Ignoring they were "old" and without their defensive anchor Wallace and Coach", or "LeBron beat a Spurs DYNASTY" (You'll never hear them say how old the Spurs core was, although it's older than DET). Same with Boston

"Jordan never faced a team with 3 all stars!"(He did and won both), but then suddenly wanna become students of the game to talk about how amazing the 2011 Mavs were despite their lack of all stars. Teams in the 90s apparently couldn't play top end basketball like those Mavs did for whatever ghost reasons, no way of playing great team basketball like Dallas or San Antonio. They just sucked cuz they didn't have multiple Hall of famers throughout the roster. Utah had All time greats in their starting lineup but they sucked too cuz Hall of Famer only matter sometimes. Chicago was better anyway so obviously Utah sucked

Lol

[WarriorGM]

The OP's topic begs the question "Tougher than whose competition?" If it's relative to today's competition, we must ask ourselves questions like is there any reason to believe that the Malone/Stockton Jazz, Payton/Kemp Sonics, Barkley's Suns, etc. were better than the teams today?

[JustOneFix]

In my mind, MJ is no doubt a better player (it's not even close) but Lebron faced tougher competition in the Finals.

Just my 2 cents

[OdomFan]

Anti Jordan fans throw common sense out the window every time.

[OdomFan]

In my mind, MJ is no doubt a better player (it's not even close) but Lebron faced tougher competition in the Finals.

Just my 2 cents

well your 2 cents is incorrect.

The 92 Blazers, 93 Knicks, 93 Suns, 96 Magic, 96 Sonics, 95 Knicks, 98 Pacers and 98 Jazz are all just as good if not better than the teams Lebron faced.

[yungsin1]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Shooting 41% was not unstoppable the role players don’t get enough credit Terry played amazing

[1993Playoffs]

Whos thougher to beat

The 97-98 jazz or the 2017 Warriors? Lmaoo

The 91 lakers with injured worthy and scott or 2008 Celtics?? LOL

[OdomFan]

Those of us who actually watched the games saw Dirk dominate those games. He had help obviously but they would NOT have beaten the Lakers, Thunder or Heat without Dirk out there doing what he did so put the stats away.

[homecourtloss]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Pretty much this. 2017, 2016, 2015 Warriors for sure are better than any team Jordan ever faced , and 2014, 2013 and 2007 Spurs are all either better or tied with maybe two teams Jordan faced as the best. 2012 OKC (the team that was favored in the finals) was more talented than any team Jordan ever faced.

The 1992 Knicks took the Bulls to 7 and the 1993 Knicks were up 2-0 and choked away game 5. Those teams were +3 to + 6 SRS teams with not much offensive talent. Keep those teams exactly the same but replace Mark Jackson with 2015-2017 Curry and those Knicks knock out the Bulls in both years.

As for the Finals opponents, I would have it like this:

2017 Warriors
2016 Warriors
2015 Warriors
2014 Spurs
2013 Spurs, 1997 Jazz, 1996 Sonics
2007 Spurs
1992 Blazers, 1993 Suns
1998 Jazz
1991 Lakers

[OdomFan]

Whos thougher to beat

The 97-98 jazz or the 2017 Warriors? Lmaoo

The 91 lakers with injured worthy and scott or 2008 Celtics?? LOL

The 98 Jazz who swept a Shaq led team? laugh your ass off all you want but it doesn't take anything away from how good they were.

As for worthy injuries happen but when it comes down to it the Bulls still won fair and square. Let's not make Worthy out to be this Huge superstar that would have shut the 91 Bulls down just for the sake of your agenda.

[Lalouie]

Not in the finals he didn't. When you face 5 teams in 6 years you're facing a division with no standout team.

[1993Playoffs]

Whos thougher to beat

The 97-98 jazz or the 2017 Warriors? Lmaoo

The 91 lakers with injured worthy and scott or 2008 Celtics?? LOL

The 98 Jazz who swept a Shaq led team? laugh your ass off all you want but it doesn't take anything away from how good they were.

As for worthy injuries happen but when it comes down to it the Bulls still won fair and square. Let's not make Worthy out to be this Huge superstar that would have shut the 91 Bulls down just for the sake of your agenda.

Worthy was a great player but im not trying to do that bro. Those teams I named are better than any MJ finals opponent imo