Rookie Discussion [19/20] [part I]

[Duke4life831]

Just to talk about Zion for a minute since he’s about to play, after watching just a couple of his preseason games, is anyone getting the feeling this guy might be more of a “lebron” type player than maybe many thought and he should be the #1 option immediately with 1) how unstoppable he is driving to the basket 2) what a great passer and playmaker he really is and 3) his absolute insane efficiency. Why wouldn’t you want him to be THE GUY ASAFP!?

He doesn't have the skill set yet. To be clear, I think prime Zion will be a point forward kind of player, like how the Bucks use Giannis. But he just isn't there yet. The potential is there with his handle, but it is not consistent enough to be a primary ball handler. He needs to tighten that up and get into his Duke or ideally senior year of high school shape to handle the workload of running an offense and playing high level defense (which is one of his biggest strengths leaving college).

I believe the Pels are truly thinking they can maybe sneak into the playoffs this year. Right now Zion can have a very high impact playing off the ball. I think it will be smart for them to continue to have him focus on high energy plays and learning and adjusting to the speed of the game that way this year. I think he can be a pretty high impact player, with good raw stats and Pels have a chance at sneaking into the playoffs this way. The season will be pretty rough if they just hand him the keys to running the offense day 1.

lmao guess it was your turn this time.

Haha I know this is another thing you and I see pretty eye to eye on. Had to hop on it quick haha.

[GeorgeMarcus]

.

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

[Marcus]

He doesn't have the skill set yet. To be clear, I think prime Zion will be a point forward kind of player, like how the Bucks use Giannis. But he just isn't there yet. The potential is there with his handle, but it is not consistent enough to be a primary ball handler. He needs to tighten that up and get into his Duke or ideally senior year of high school shape to handle the workload of running an offense and playing high level defense (which is one of his biggest strengths leaving college).

I believe the Pels are truly thinking they can maybe sneak into the playoffs this year. Right now Zion can have a very high impact playing off the ball. I think it will be smart for them to continue to have him focus on high energy plays and learning and adjusting to the speed of the game that way this year. I think he can be a pretty high impact player, with good raw stats and Pels have a chance at sneaking into the playoffs this way. The season will be pretty rough if they just hand him the keys to running the offense day 1.

lmao guess it was your turn this time.

Haha I know this is another thing you and I see pretty eye to eye on. Had to hop on it quick haha.

kudos to you sir.

[Marcus]

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

[Duke4life831]

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

I had no clue about this. But ya googling it now, I do see a lot of people calling it the Charles Barkley rule. If that is the case, then ya that would be the opposite of Zion.

[GeorgeMarcus]

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

I hear what you're saying, but it wasn't the kind of back to the basket game most people think of. He would try to draw the extra defender (like you said) and if he had space to take the defender 1v1 he would generally use his explosive first step (and low center of gravity) to generate efficient looks at the basket.

[Marcus]

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

I hear what you're saying, but it wasn't the kind of back to the basket game most people think of. He would try to draw the extra defender (like you said) and if he had space to take the defender 1v1 he would generally use his explosive first step (and low center of gravity) to generate efficient looks at the basket.

oh for sure there was nothing traditional about how he got it done. But ball dominance was the name of the game for that era and Chuck provided problems with his IQ, solid midrange, and ability to attack off the catch. It was the lesser evil if you were the defense because the way Phoenix moved the ball and with the pace they played if you didn't allow Chuck to post up, you opened up wayyyyy too many other weapons. Think Don Nelson famously (Chuck spoke about it during an Open Court episode) left Byron Houston one on one with Chuck in the playoffs and let Chuck feast in the post against him to alleviate death by a thousand cuts if he allowed KJ, Marjerle, and sober Richard Dumas to get theirs from cuts and kickouts ALONG WITH Chuck in any way he wanted to.


Back on topic though: I think Zion could/will be a double digit rebounder once he learns how to safely get physical. He reads trajectory well but he has no idea how to boxout and or do the early work in terms of positioning. Right now it's reads and bounce. Once his conditioning gets up though we'll see a different player.

[tsmith]

When Lavine misses games Chicago are just gonna give Coby White the keys and let him do what he wants.

[MissileMike]

When Lavine misses games Chicago are just gonna give Coby White the keys and let him do what he wants.

A lot more than just Lavine sitting tonight though.... Coby with 24 pts on 22fga and 0 assists

[clyde21]

Coby - 24 pts / 8 rbs

Gafford - 9 pts / 8 rbs / 5 blks

Matisse - 4 steals 1 block in 18 mins

Zion - 26 pts / 5rbs

NAW - 22 pts / 2 rbs / 4 asts

RJ - 15pts / 7 rbs / 1 ast

[SeattleJazzFan]

Coby - 24 pts / 8 rbs

Gafford - 9 pts / 8 rbs / 5 blks

Matisse - 4 steals 1 block in 18 mins

Zion - 26 pts / 5rbs

NAW - 22 pts / 2 rbs / 4 asts

RJ - 15pts / 7 rbs / 1 ast

those numbers don't do Zion justice. so much more efficient and by extension, dominant than everybody else. brandon ingram will be the best defender in the league this year on zion.

[Kabookalu]

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

Just to add, Barkley was responsible, but the main culprit was Mark Jackson. Looking back at it it was actually hilarious how much he'd bring the ball up, and then go straight into the post, pounding at his man for sometimes the entire shotclock. The illegal defense rules compounded this problem too and Jackson made a career out of it. At least with Barkley it was "the guy's a star," but with Jackson he was a solid career kind of guy that exploited the rules. If they didn't introduce this rule Chauncey Billups may have even been better than he was since he did it himself too, but couldn't exercise it to its fullest extent cause of the rule.

[Catchall]

Zion is just a unique player. Defenders just literally bounce off him, and he has different ways to finish at the rim. He knows how to use his wide body to get space, even against a much bigger defender, and he can find the angles to finish.

[LeMasta]

man screw the hype and haters, Zion is so fun to watch. Crazy how much body control and strength he has when attacking the paint.

[Duke4life831]

I wont lie, Ive been underwhelmed by Zion. His weight gain scares the crap out of me, that is now 2 straight years he has put on weight. One of my favorite things about Zion was his defense. Lets be real he has been one of the worse defenders getting big minutes so far in the preseason. The movement isn't there, it looks like he just stands in place catching his breath.

Dont get me wrong the dude is fantastic offensively. His IQ and touch is elite. But ya I dont think his defensive struggles are just the normal rookie catching up to speed defensive struggles. I think its a weight and condition thing as well. When I saw how much weight he put on from Duke to SL, I thought okay give him a pass he has been doing a ton of media stuff. Thought we would see some evidence of weight loss since SL, I dont see it. Again 2 straight years of him visibly getting larger (not muscles either), definitely a worry for me if he cant get that under control. Ive been one of his biggest supporters on here for 3 years now.

[clyde21]

I wont lie, Ive been underwhelmed by Zion. His weight gain scares the crap out of me, that is now 2 straight years he has put on weight. One of my favorite things about Zion was his defense. Lets be real he has been one of the worse defenders getting big minutes so far in the preseason. The movement isn't there, it looks like he just stands in place catching his breath.

Dont get me wrong the dude is fantastic offensively. His IQ and touch is elite. But ya I dont think his defensive struggles are just the normal rookie catching up to speed defensive struggles. I think its a weight and condition thing as well. When I saw how much weight he put on from Duke to SL, I thought okay give him a pass he has been doing a ton of media stuff. Thought we would see some evidence of weight loss since SL, I dont see it. Again 2 straight years of him visibly getting larger (not muscles either), definitely a worry for me if he cant get that under control. Ive been one of his biggest supporters on here for 3 years now.

his defense is gonna follow suit when he gets in game shape and gets used to the NBA pace

[clyde21]

PJ Washington made a start against the 76ers on Friday, scoring 10 points with five rebounds, three assists, four steals, two blocks and one 3-pointer in 32 minutes.

The reports around the team were that Washington could start out in the G League, but he may be changing minds in the very near future. He was one of the better defenders on the team, and he was advanced in reading the defenses to help his team get some buckets. Nic Batum (Achilles) shouldn't be out long, so Washington's short-term value may not be there year. Owners in even 12-team leagues should be watching him closely.

[Duke4life831]

I wont lie, Ive been underwhelmed by Zion. His weight gain scares the crap out of me, that is now 2 straight years he has put on weight. One of my favorite things about Zion was his defense. Lets be real he has been one of the worse defenders getting big minutes so far in the preseason. The movement isn't there, it looks like he just stands in place catching his breath.

Dont get me wrong the dude is fantastic offensively. His IQ and touch is elite. But ya I dont think his defensive struggles are just the normal rookie catching up to speed defensive struggles. I think its a weight and condition thing as well. When I saw how much weight he put on from Duke to SL, I thought okay give him a pass he has been doing a ton of media stuff. Thought we would see some evidence of weight loss since SL, I dont see it. Again 2 straight years of him visibly getting larger (not muscles either), definitely a worry for me if he cant get that under control. Ive been one of his biggest supporters on here for 3 years now.

his defense is gonna follow suit when he gets in game shape and gets used to the NBA pace

Ya that's if he gets in shape though. Look at him as a senior in high school, then look at him at Duke, then look at him now. Its not a good trajectory that he is on. You know me, Im a die hard Zion fan boy, but I cant deny he is not trending in the right direction weight wise the last 2 years. And he is nowhere close to having the cardio to be a 2 way player, which is a key part on why he was such a good prospect. I also have to question, how the hell did he let himself get so out of shape since the last Duke game?

[GreenBloodedC]

People talking about Zion being undersized, but he's just a mismatch waiting to happen.

He's too fast and too skilled for the big defenders, and he's too strong for the guys his size.

Kid's a freak!

[Buzzard]

I've watched a lot of old footage of Barkley, but also wasn't watching basketball during his prime. To your point about ball-dominance, that was one of Barkley's greatest strength IMO. He didn't have the size/length to consistently employ the slower/back to the basket post game, so he made his mark in transition and as an off-ball cutter. He was a good enough ball handler that he could beat slower defenders off the dribble as well. That's partly why I like the Zion comparison, but you're right about Zion being stronger/more athletic and not as good of a rebounder.

Pretty sure Chuck is the reason they made the 5 seconds back to the basket rule. Just a different era in the way the game was played. More ISO, Chuck would back down for as long as he needed to shift the defender's weight, the double to come, or for Chuck to get to his spot. This is Phoenix MVP Chuck btw. I didn't see a lot of Sixers Chuck.

I had no clue about this. But ya googling it now, I do see a lot of people calling it the Charles Barkley rule. If that is the case, then ya that would be the opposite of Zion.

I watched Barkley live and he flat out would back someone down with his big rear end starting 10 to 15 feet out and then spin to the basket finishing like no other. Similar girth but different games. Maybe Zion takes on the better parts of Barkley's game but right now, they are not the same.

Sir Charles got the nickname the round mound of rebound when he was a very young player.