Tatum VS Luka

Big J · Post #401 » by **Big J** » Sat May 7, 2022 10:45 pm

Johnny Tomala wrote:Luka and it's not close.

This guy gets it.

Kingdibs19 · Post #402 » by **Kingdibs19** » Sat May 7, 2022 10:46 pm

Luka and it’s not even close.

Archx · Post #403 » by **Archx** » Sat May 7, 2022 10:54 pm

Joshyjess wrote:
Dundalis wrote:
Joshyjess wrote:It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

This is a stupid argument. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (I know Bird made all defensive teams, but no one actually thinks he was ever a great defender, he was a good team defender that was able to hide pretty well on great defensive teams), are considered top 5-10 players of all time. Plenty of players ranked below them had elite offense and elite defense which they absolutely lacked. No one that isn't a homer disputes their place on Mount Rushmore due to that however. Meaning no one actually thinks the player who is elite on both sides of the ball is automatically better than players who aren't.

The offense isn't in the same ball park. If Tatum had to carry a team as the primary ball handler against elite defenses, it's not gonna work. Doesn't mean he isn't an elite offensive player. It means his type of offense is straight up less valuable. Same as Magic, who if you look at statistically, wasn't putting up numbers like some others who were clearly inferior players. Being an offensive hub in every single situation for your team is easily the most valuable skillset there is in the game. I don't necessarily think the gap is humongous, but Luka isn't considered a fairly consensus top 10, and even top 5 in the game by many because people love white Euro's or the Dallas Mavericks. Even someone like Jokic was constantly hated on, and just recently started getting begrudging respect.

Unlike Trae Young, Luka is a player who you could hide, like Bird or Magic, if he played on a team that had high level defenders, but also high level offensive players that could actually take an offensive load off his shoulders. Hasn't had that at any point in his career.

So the better player needs to be "hid" OK. And please don't EVER try to compare Luka to Bird. Bird was a top defensive player quite a few teams. (three times named to the all nba defensive 2nd team). Luka is NO Bird. That argument alone would get you banned on many sites. This argument is about Tatum and Luka, and as such we need to look at their complete games, not just one side of the court. Luka is amazing on offense and trash on defense. Tatum is amazing on offense and amazing on defense. That is the main point here. One player is one-sided, the other is an all-around player. Just imagine if Tatum ignored the defensive side of the ball as well, and only focuse on his offensive game.

Uhmmm.... If we're allowed to say "Ehhh....Tatum had a bad game it happens.." Why are you calling Doncic a trash on defense then if he had one bad half vs Suns the other day?
I'm not saying it can't happen again but Mavs were one of the best defensive teams in the league this year and Luka by all metrics was their 2nd or 3rd best defender. People love advance stats so why not use them? Even if you want to discredit what i just said. Mavs wouldn't be where they are if Luka was really such a trash defender. He's at least average and that's enough to go along with his offense.

He has the highest DRTG, DWS%, DPBM and highest On/Off numbers on the Mavs in playoffs. Boy oh boy, he's so trash. :nonono:

Peregrine01 · Post #404 » by **Peregrine01** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:01 pm

Luka. An offensive savant who isn’t good on defense is more valuable than a good offensive player with great defense. Just the way the game is.

Los_29 · Post #405 » by **Los_29** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:15 pm

This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

User_friendly · Post #406 » by **User_friendly** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:18 pm

mpoo_sin wrote:4/19 FG , 10 PTS, 1 REB, 3 AST, 41 MIN

I doubt you will ever see Doncic having this kind of statline.

Good luck trying to convince the defense advocators with that.

Patsfan1081 · Post #407 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:29 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:Luka. An offensive savant who isn’t good on defense is more valuable than a good offensive player with great defense. Just the way the game is.

Tatum has a better offensive win share this season and finished at the top of the league in scoring, I think this is downplaying his offense a little bit. He’s obviously a good number one option on a contender. People are putting Luca leagues ahead offensively and I havent heard a good reason as to why. Obviously he’s a excellent passer but even Tatum has now improved in that area by a decent amount and is even averaging more assists in the playoffs. Like I said, even as a C’s fan Id put Luka ahead but anyone saying he’s clearly has brought any factual evidence to the table.

User_friendly · Post #408 » by **User_friendly** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:29 pm

Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

I see Luka clearly ahead of Tatum, but swapping teams doesn't tell all the story. Tatum is much less interchangeable than Luka because Luka is much more versatile. But Tatum could be more determinant than Luka in the right team, if he becomes the ultimate scorer with good defense. Not easy but it could happen.

Ambrose · Post #409 » by **Ambrose** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:34 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:Luka. An offensive savant who isn’t good on defense is more valuable than a good offensive player with great defense. Just the way the game is.

Tatum has a better offensive win share this season and finished at the top of the league in scoring, I think this is downplaying his offense a little bit. He’s obviously a good number one option on a contender. People are putting Luca leagues ahead offensively and I havent heard a good reason as to why. Obviously he’s a excellent passer but even Tatum has now improved in that area by a decent amount and is even averaging more assists in the playoffs. Like I said, even as a C’s fan Id put Luka ahead but anyone saying he’s clearly has brought any factual evidence to the table.

Because Luka is a top 5 playmaker in the NBA and runs an offense much better than Tatum ever could. You can't just look at assists per game and say oh he's creating at an elite level. Not at all assists are created equal, and Luka is multiple tiers above creating for others. I say this as someone who thinks they are both pretty close as overall players.

Arsenal · Post #410 » by **Arsenal** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:36 pm

Is this real? OP should be ashamed of making such a ridiculous thread.

Jayson Tatum may be the MOST overrated player in the league.

Patsfan1081 · Post #411 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:37 pm

User_friendly wrote:
mpoo_sin wrote:4/19 FG , 10 PTS, 1 REB, 3 AST, 41 MIN

I doubt you will ever see Doncic having this kind of statline.

Good luck trying to convince the defense advocators with that.

Yeah because playing good defense and having 4 blocks is a weak argument……Luca recently had a 5/20 game and 7 turnovers, he’s a pg with the ball in his hands every play so of course he wont have low assists. Pinning your argument on one game, especially when talking about players in their early twenties, is ridiculous. Though not very surprising……

Patsfan1081 · Post #412 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:38 pm

Arsenal wrote:Is this real? OP should be ashamed of making such a ridiculous thread.

Jayson Tatum may be the MOST overrated player in the league.

Based off what? Im sure it has nothing to do with playing in Boston…. :roll:

Patsfan1081 · Post #413 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:40 pm

Ambrose wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:Luka. An offensive savant who isn’t good on defense is more valuable than a good offensive player with great defense. Just the way the game is.

Tatum has a better offensive win share this season and finished at the top of the league in scoring, I think this is downplaying his offense a little bit. He’s obviously a good number one option on a contender. People are putting Luca leagues ahead offensively and I havent heard a good reason as to why. Obviously he’s a excellent passer but even Tatum has now improved in that area by a decent amount and is even averaging more assists in the playoffs. Like I said, even as a C’s fan Id put Luka ahead but anyone saying he’s clearly has brought any factual evidence to the table.

Because Luka is a top 5 playmaker in the NBA and runs an offense much better than Tatum ever could. You can't just look at assists per game and say oh he's creating at an elite level. Not at all assists are created equal, and Luka is multiple tiers above creating for others. I say this as someone who thinks they are both pretty close as overall players.

Well one is a pg and the other a pf but thats my point, offense isnt soley based off one category.

Patsfan1081 · Post #414 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:42 pm

User_friendly wrote:
Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

I see Luka clearly ahead of Tatum, but swapping teams doesn't tell all the story. Tatum is much less interchangeable than Luka because Luka is much more versatile. But Tatum could be more determinant than Luka in the right team, if he becomes the ultimate scorer with good defense. Not easy but it could happen.

How is Luca much more versatile when Tatum is the two way player? Tatum could switch and guard anyone on the floor, if his scoring isnt there he could contribute not only on other ways offensively but also guarding the opposing teams best scorer.

Patsfan1081 · Post #415 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:45 pm

Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

People keep saying that yet bring now factual evidence. Outside passing what category is Luca clearly dominant in? And its not like Tatum is even a bad playmaker. Its really not surprising that these takes are coming off of Tatum’s prob worst game of the season…..

ArksNetsSince99 · Post #416 » by **ArksNetsSince99** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:45 pm

Luka by a mile

agentofatlas · Post #417 » by **agentofatlas** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:47 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

People keep saying that yet bring now factual evidence. Outside passing what category is Luca clearly dominant in? And its not like Tatum is even a bad playmaker. Its really not surprising that these takes are coming off of Tatum’s prob worst game of the season…..

Pretty sure he's a dominant scorer also. On good percentages outside of FTs.

Patsfan1081 · Post #418 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:47 pm

Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

Yet you bring this hot take off of Tatum’s prob worse game of the season…..Funny how that works. The media has Tatum as a mvp finalist/first team all nba but now after a bad game amazing people who didnt have a comment before are jumping in.

Patsfan1081 · Post #419 » by **Patsfan1081** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:48 pm

agentofatlas wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
Los_29 wrote:This is why threads shouldn't be started after someone has a great game.

This isn't close. Luka is miles ahead of Tatum. Luka is a true generational type talent. Those kinds of players rarely come along. If you swapped Luka with Tatum, the Mavs are a play-in team and the Celtics are a 60 win team and wouldn't be struggling to beat a depleted Bucks team.

People keep saying that yet bring now factual evidence. Outside passing what category is Luca clearly dominant in? And its not like Tatum is even a bad playmaker. Its really not surprising that these takes are coming off of Tatum’s prob worst game of the season…..

Pretty sure he's a dominant scorer also. On good percentages outside of FTs.

Tatum isnt with good free throw shooting?

agentofatlas · Post #420 » by **agentofatlas** » Sat May 7, 2022 11:50 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
agentofatlas wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
People keep saying that yet bring now factual evidence. Outside passing what category is Luca clearly dominant in? And its not like Tatum is even a bad playmaker. Its really not surprising that these takes are coming off of Tatum’s prob worst game of the season…..

Pretty sure he's a dominant scorer also. On good percentages outside of FTs.

Tatum isnt with good free throw shooting?

I'm talking about Luka. You're asking what other categories he's dominant in and I'm saying he's a very good and consistent playoff scorer with good percentages outside of FTs.

Who's the better player overall?