What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[MavsDirk41]

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.

I like that people listed very acceptable data and then someone posts this like they didn't even bother to look what was posted.

Yeah, they are full of ****.

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

[MavsDirk41]

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

Oh for sure. One of the Goats on defense

Funny cause when the Lakers have been playing the Mavs 6’5 Bullock and 6’4 Tim Hardaway have been defending 6’8 James. Better than when he was defended by 6’2 Jason Terry in the 2011 finals tho

[KrAzY3]

The irony is some people have twisted things around so much that sticking with a team and a coach has become a bad thing to them. Oh Jordan only won with the Bulls, Jordan didn't win with three different teams.

Man... if Jordan team jumped searching for rings how many could he have gotten? He'd have demanded trades or what ever, teamed up with people like Bird on the Celtics, or may be Utah so he could play with Stockton and Malone, etc... Heck does anyone here think Jordan couldn't have just joined the same Rockets team Pippen was on and not have won playing along side Barkley and Hakeem?

The reason people have to cite Pippen so much is because he's the only player that was on all six of those Jordan championship teams. He's the only guy that people can point to go and go oh there's some other guy we can try to give credit to.

Does it matter that Pippen's impact has been inflated solely to try and make this argument? Not to those people...
Remember, Jordan won a NCAA championship playing without Pippen. He won a Olympic gold medal as an amateur playing against pros, without Pippen. He didn't get his championship pedigree from Pippen, he was already a champion before he ever met him.

There's nothing wrong with MJ only winning with Phil and Scottie.
The problem and question is why couldn't he simply do anything without them?When Lebron could with anyone.

Goes both ways, what if LeBron got drafted by the Spurs and played with Timmy, Manu, Tony? How many consecutive rings would they win?
See what I did there?

Who was on that NC team that won the championship? Who scored 28 pts in the finals? Yet another all time great on MJs team when he won.

Problem with MJ lovers is they make it sound like MJ won everything himself. No help whatsoever.

Saying he won against international pros, back in the 80s, C'mon man.

I'm not even sure what you are talking about.

Jordan only played 13 full seasons, ages 38 and 39 with a team that won only 19 games before he showed up (and massively improved with him on the team). Is your question really why didn't 38 year old Jordan win a championship with a 19 win team?

Otherwise, he only had 3 seasons without Pippen! One of those he was injured, and mind you that was a 27 win Bulls team he joined, and he ran into an all time great Celtics team in the playoffs (far better than any team LeBron ever faced in the East). Just to remind you, LeBron played 8 seasons in Cleveland with no title, it sure doesn't sound like he could do it with anyone, so he didn't do so great winning a title without a star either.

Remember LeBron won 4 titles in 20 seasons, every single title coming playing alongside another star (two of those being the number one overall pick, Wade on the other hand was already a Finals MVP). It's just such a weird argument to make...

[MightyMouse10]

The fact that this is even an argument is all the data you need.

Rules have changed; offence/stats have been much easier to come by. Looking at stats only, Harden/Luka can become a debate to Jordan/Lebron but nobody dares to compare.

Its Jordan GOAT, no debate.

Then another club who are all inter-changeable (I dont speak to players I have never seen play on a consistent basis)

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Steph
Hakeem

Outside looking in
Dirk
Giannis (potential to be in above group)
Jokic (potential to be in above group)
KG

[KembaWalker]

a bunch of metrics released in the 2010s (and we all know the ones that catch on are the ones that fit the narratives and eyetest the best, the rest are discarded or never catch on. these are not exactly scientific endeavors, they are popularity contests and product launches) and applied to players actively playing in the data driven era end up with better numbers than when they are retroactively applied (almost always with missing data that is either ignored or "estimated" to fill in the gaps) to older players who didn't play in a data driven league?

at the end of the day, people flock to the numbers that tell them what they want to hear. If they get to pat themselves on the back for being more intelligent because their number has "regression" in it even though they don't know what that actually means, all the better right?

[WarriorGM]

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.



Yeah, they are full of ****.

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

Start enumerating all the numbers in favor of Curry over on the PC board and feel the temperature drop. They cannot exactly argue against the facts so they'll just censor instead. That's why it's an echo chamber over there. No one should be citing that groupthink forum except as an example of navel gazing on the internet.

[Yank3525]

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.

I like that people listed very acceptable data and then someone posts this like they didn't even bother to look what was posted.

Yeah, they are full of ****.

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

Several posters have posted boatload of metrics that show that Jordan was better than LeBron. Hell, I posted an article from Neil Paine that actually goes into detail why MJ was the goat. You guys just don’t want to hear it and rather pretend that people picking MJ are just casual boomers.

[KembaWalker]

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

Start enumerating all the numbers in favor of Curry over on the PC board and feel the temperature drop. They cannot exactly argue against the facts so they'll just censor instead. That's why it's an echo chamber over there. No one should be citing that groupthink forum except as an example of navel gazing on the internet.

I've always been curious when the PC board became a LeBron propaganda community but never enough to do the research. I just don't get how they think they are some kind of objective discussion board on basketball when generally the only active threads are "The LeBron Thread" (where, despite the name of the board, you aren't allowed to compare him negatively to anyone or risk strikes for "derailment", meanwhile the thread is just endless rambling on Laker transactions that have nothing to do with Player Comparisons or LeBron) or threads fluffing LeBron. I've been here for a long time and I don't think it was always like that but I might be misremembering. I'd say it needs a total makeover but at the end of the day its a nice quarantine zone anyway, kind of like the mirror image of Hoopshype. They need their space somewhere so might as well be there I guess

[MavsDirk41]

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

Start enumerating all the numbers in favor of Curry over on the PC board and feel the temperature drop. They cannot exactly argue against the facts so they'll just censor instead. That's why it's an echo chamber over there. No one should be citing that groupthink forum except as an example of navel gazing on the internet.

I agree 100% man. They had a lebron james stan on there awhile back claiming Scottie Pippen averaged 22 points a game in his career without playing alongside Jordan. Its like some of them just throw junk up against the wall and it sticks. Just last year ESPN and CBS released a poll with Jordan ranked #1. But they want you to disregard those sites because all that matters is the ranking of the PC board?? Lol it’s ludicrous man.

[twyzted]

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

Just as much of a beast as this one.

[twyzted]

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.



Yeah, they are full of ****.

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

I posted this earlier in the thread.

Advanced stats for regular Season:
1st in PER
1st in ws/48
5th in WS
5th in ows
14th in dbpm(2nd among guards)
1st obpm
2nd bpm
2nd Vorp

Playoffs:
1st in PER
2nd in ws
7th in dws
1st ws/48
1st obpm
13th dbpm
1st bpm
2nd VORP

There is no other player who matches this.

This is most of publicly available data, but no

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted

Not good enough.

Its like an impossible question because we do not have tracking data of Jordan so i dont know what they want more???

[Bank Shot]

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".

[Ugalde]

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

kyrie, kevin love. anthony davis.

Yea, AD greeted Bron at Staples when he signed with LA....

Edit: Love was in Cleveland to welcome the king, as well.

what does it matter if they were there when he got there or not? the point is jordan played 15 season and won 6 rings. lebron played 20 and has 4. the poster was saying jordan didn't win without pippen. lebron also didn't win without wade/chris bosh/kyrie/kevin love/anthony davis.

who cares if they went to the team after or before?

[ceiling raiser]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

[KembaWalker]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

Because everyone knows it's a bad faith premise, which you probably knew when you made the thread. Full comparable datasets for the 80s and even lots of the 90s don't exist, anyone pushing advanced metrics in a LBJ/MJ comp is either misinformed on what is actually available in these stats that they are using or debating in bad faith. Anything else is just the common twisting of the same old box score numbers which can be more or less manipulated into whatever story you want it to tell.

[MavsDirk41]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

Lol are you kidding?

Carer BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

Career PER
Jordan 27.9
James 27.2

Jordan has a higher regular season winning percentage

Jordan has a higher playoffs winning percentage

What do you think you are missing? Twyzted posted more data driven stuff on here just a couple post up. If i dont want to acknowledge something i just ignore it too though.

[MavsDirk41]

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

I posted this earlier in the thread.

Advanced stats for regular Season:
1st in PER
1st in ws/48
5th in WS
5th in ows
14th in dbpm(2nd among guards)
1st obpm
2nd bpm
2nd Vorp

Playoffs:
1st in PER
2nd in ws
7th in dws
1st ws/48
1st obpm
13th dbpm
1st bpm
2nd VORP

There is no other player who matches this.

This is most of publicly available data, but no

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted

Not good enough.

Its like an impossible question because we do not have tracking data of Jordan so i dont know what they want more???

They want everyone on this forum to think their favorite player is the goat and they will continue to post ridiculous stuff until that time.

[benhillboy]

Just my two cents that no one asked for lol:

“GOAT” debates only show a lack of realization and appreciation for the limitless contrasts between players’ nuances. Furthermore Jordan’s early career shot selection (many times going 1 on 3 looking like a compete imbecile to piggyback off Pippen’s “controversial” comments) and LeBron’s late (far too many three attempts for someone with career long struggles at the stripe) indicate a considerably lower BBIQ than most give them credit for. Obviously transcendent players but I wouldn’t dare dream of putting them on their current NBA community consensus pedestals. Did Tim Duncan ever attempt a bad shot in life? (half kidding).

But if I’m to play this game floor-raising is paramount to everything else. LeBron with a historical best .399 playoff WS/48 (no championship) in 09 is arguably the most eye popping metric I’ve ever seen. That and Nate McMillan having the second best career defensive box behind The Admiral.

[OhayoKD]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

Because everyone knows it's a bad faith premise, which you probably knew when you made the thread. Full comparable datasets for the 80s and even lots of the 90s don't exist, anyone pushing advanced metrics in a LBJ/MJ comp is either misinformed on what is actually available in these stats that they are using or debating in bad faith. Anything else is just the common twisting of the same old box score numbers which can be more or less manipulated into whatever story you want it to tell.

There is non-box data but it is limited and you have to use your own judgement I suppose. As a primer(since pre-data ball "analytics" require alot more work, even how good a team is relative to the league isn't just a matter of comparing their srs on bbr), i'll link you to an argument made for kareem(with also mentions russell) vs Jordan:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107462472#p107462472
The "metrics" come up after rhe "why you should expect" section though I suppose that's an example of how you can use historical results to making positive arguments regarding skillset(Jordan's handles vs Kareem's rim-protection for example)"

FWIW, it is a "peak" case, not a longetvity one.

Here is the non-box data we have on Lebron and Jordan:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107431317#p107431317

Recommend you start with the first link

[Ben-N1ce]

MJ is like a poor man's Butler and Derozan in today's game methinks.