The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[Optms]

Nobody gives a crap about defense unless it's Jokic. Then they go to extremes to discredit him even though he's not nearly as bad as people want to make it out to be.

Offense and defense are not the same amount of important, not even close. Offense will always matter more when judging a players greatness.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

I think he played a lot of bad defense this year.
By design, as he's conservibg energy and avoiding fouls.
It's different when he goes for it.

Playing some bad defense is very different from the topic. Which is on net he's bad. Every player outside of perhaps specialists will make some bad plays or take some off. On net however Jokic's defense has been about the same as the last few years. Very solid.

[dhsilv2]

Play safety and make rotations so he can lay out the red carpet for players on their way to an easy layup

Sure bud, I don’t understand defense. You’re the savant

I'm at best a C- guy at following defense. But the idea Jokic's with his deflections and steals...I mean we're talking about the same guy right? Jokic is 3rd in total steals in the NBA this season and tied for 3rd in deflections.

I mean, serious question. Do you think steals and deflections are meaningless? Again he's 3rd in both among ALL players in both. Not big men. But in total.

He has 274 combined steals/deflections so far...we aren't even at the allstar break.

Oh and he's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds.

How is a guy who's 3rd in steals. 3rd in deflections. And 3rd in defensive rebounds a BELOW average defender?

And I don't have 2025 numbers but Jokic has been averaging like .7 kicked balls in some seasons, so likely has 20-30 of those where he resets the clock to what is it now, 16? I forget. That's defensive value too.

So do you think any of this has value? And if so...how bad is he elsewhere that these things aren't helping make him neutral? Like serious question...lets stop throwing around the simi insults while still not being crossing the line disrespectful. You don't like on off data. We both agree he's a bad rim protector but we also both agree he's at the rim contesting a lot. So...how do you evaluate all these steals, deflections, and rebounds? Do you see any value in a kicked ball on a lost play that prevents a score?

Oh and lets not forget all this in the context that he almost never sends people to the line to get free points.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35959911/the-problem-nikola-jokic-game-let-just-say-offense
Per a 2023 article in March, Jokic allowed the highest FG percentage among players who defended at least 300 shots at the rim (69 percent). This year he’s at 70 percent. That is the WORST in the league…the next few are Towns, Vucevic, and Sabonis…these are his cohorts

Per that article he was 64th out of 65, only better than Thomas Bryant at defending layups and dunks.

Out of 226 players who defended at least 200 drives in 2023 at the time of the article, we ranked 222nd in efficiency (there are only like 300 players in the NBA)

So to answer you question, he is literally THE WORST or among THE WORST in other areas which makes him a bad defender.

A center who is third in deflections and this in steals becomes a below average defender when he is literally — THE WORST — at the things that you need your center to do the most

And it’s very very very easy to not foul players when you are not even trying to be a deterrent at the rim. You don’t get credit for not fouling on defense when you aren’t playing defense.

Oh god...an ESPN article. At least give us a source from a site who's writers aren't paid to make their readers dumber.

Mean while you continue this never ending jibbersh about "what center does". And you keep missing that a big part of what also makes a defender a plus is that they're actually there to contest shots. Guys like Drummond that you claimed was a better defender aren't even in the plays because they don't have the motor to stay with them and contest anything.

[dhsilv2]

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

impacting positively team defense makes you a good defender, no matter how you achieve it

Being the worst rim defender and among the worst at defending drives clearly hurts a teams defense more than getting deflections

Quantify it if you actually believe this.

Jokic defends 20.3 shots per game and teams shoot 49.2% on those shots. Gobert defends 17.9 and teams shoot 45.7%

Jokic deflects 3.8 shots per game. That's 3.8 shots that aren't being taken. You simply plug that into the numbers here. That would mean his adjusted DFG% would be 41.4% which would be lower than Wemby.

So if you have some better way, show us with numbers.

[DimesandKnicks]

I'm at best a C- guy at following defense. But the idea Jokic's with his deflections and steals...I mean we're talking about the same guy right? Jokic is 3rd in total steals in the NBA this season and tied for 3rd in deflections.

I mean, serious question. Do you think steals and deflections are meaningless? Again he's 3rd in both among ALL players in both. Not big men. But in total.

He has 274 combined steals/deflections so far...we aren't even at the allstar break.

Oh and he's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds.

How is a guy who's 3rd in steals. 3rd in deflections. And 3rd in defensive rebounds a BELOW average defender?

And I don't have 2025 numbers but Jokic has been averaging like .7 kicked balls in some seasons, so likely has 20-30 of those where he resets the clock to what is it now, 16? I forget. That's defensive value too.

So do you think any of this has value? And if so...how bad is he elsewhere that these things aren't helping make him neutral? Like serious question...lets stop throwing around the simi insults while still not being crossing the line disrespectful. You don't like on off data. We both agree he's a bad rim protector but we also both agree he's at the rim contesting a lot. So...how do you evaluate all these steals, deflections, and rebounds? Do you see any value in a kicked ball on a lost play that prevents a score?

Oh and lets not forget all this in the context that he almost never sends people to the line to get free points.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35959911/the-problem-nikola-jokic-game-let-just-say-offense
Per a 2023 article in March, Jokic allowed the highest FG percentage among players who defended at least 300 shots at the rim (69 percent). This year he’s at 70 percent. That is the WORST in the league…the next few are Towns, Vucevic, and Sabonis…these are his cohorts

Per that article he was 64th out of 65, only better than Thomas Bryant at defending layups and dunks.

Out of 226 players who defended at least 200 drives in 2023 at the time of the article, we ranked 222nd in efficiency (there are only like 300 players in the NBA)

So to answer you question, he is literally THE WORST or among THE WORST in other areas which makes him a bad defender.

A center who is third in deflections and this in steals becomes a below average defender when he is literally — THE WORST — at the things that you need your center to do the most

And it’s very very very easy to not foul players when you are not even trying to be a deterrent at the rim. You don’t get credit for not fouling on defense when you aren’t playing defense.

Oh god...an ESPN article. At least give us a source from a site who's writers aren't paid to make their readers dumber.

Mean while you continue this never ending jibbersh about "what center does". And you keep missing that a big part of what also makes a defender a plus is that they're actually there to contest shots. Guys like Drummond that you claimed was a better defender aren't even in the plays because they don't have the motor to stay with them and contest anything.

These standards that you have to conjure up to pretend Jokic is a good defender are truly pathetic

[dhsilv2]

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

He's a 4.2 PF per 100 guy career. He was at 4.4 in the 2023 playoffs. he played more minutes and on top of that teams were targeting him (without much success). He remained as always low fouls.

[dhsilv2]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35959911/the-problem-nikola-jokic-game-let-just-say-offense
Per a 2023 article in March, Jokic allowed the highest FG percentage among players who defended at least 300 shots at the rim (69 percent). This year he’s at 70 percent. That is the WORST in the league…the next few are Towns, Vucevic, and Sabonis…these are his cohorts

Per that article he was 64th out of 65, only better than Thomas Bryant at defending layups and dunks.

Out of 226 players who defended at least 200 drives in 2023 at the time of the article, we ranked 222nd in efficiency (there are only like 300 players in the NBA)

So to answer you question, he is literally THE WORST or among THE WORST in other areas which makes him a bad defender.

A center who is third in deflections and this in steals becomes a below average defender when he is literally — THE WORST — at the things that you need your center to do the most

And it’s very very very easy to not foul players when you are not even trying to be a deterrent at the rim. You don’t get credit for not fouling on defense when you aren’t playing defense.

Oh god...an ESPN article. At least give us a source from a site who's writers aren't paid to make their readers dumber.

Mean while you continue this never ending jibbersh about "what center does". And you keep missing that a big part of what also makes a defender a plus is that they're actually there to contest shots. Guys like Drummond that you claimed was a better defender aren't even in the plays because they don't have the motor to stay with them and contest anything.

These standards that you have to conjure up to pretend Jokic is a good defender are truly pathetic

You're literally ignoring every single piece of data there is to argue a point you can't even explain.

Think about everything we've covered.

We've basically covered every aspect of defense and all you can come back with is "but rim protection". Meanwhile Jokic literally prevents 6+ plays a game from ever getting to the rim.

[JM00n69]

When it comes to rim protection, AG is the tallest PF that Jok has ever had and he is 6'8''. He has never had any help that side

[DimesandKnicks]

Can yall tell me what makes Luka Doncic a bad defender despite being a great defensive rebounder and among the leaders in steals?

[dhsilv2]

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

Again defensive schemes only work if you are good at team adefense and defensive awareness to incorporate the said schemes. Just saying oh I have a scheme that works.Again jokic is not a negative defender. He has limitations no one denying it. But what he does have allow certain defensive schemes to work. Jokic knows and understands plays of opposing teams run. More than their own players at times. His anticipation and knowledge/IQ allows for certain schemes to work. He is a good team defender. He coordinates the defense a lot of the time.

A good defender is a good defender independent of defensive schemes. You build your defensive schemes around your good defenders. The Nuggets defense is built to compensate for his weaknesses.

You put him on another team and his defense gets further exposed.

Again Kat can defend an all time great in the right defensive scheme, despite being an absolutely awful defender in another

This is a fairly fair statement. A rare one in here for you. And I'll even agree with it. Jokic is NOT a good defender. But the argument people keep making is he's average to a plus defender. Not a good one.

But I'm not sure if you were honest with this take, we'd get anywhere. Robert Williams - TIME LORD, got absolutely cooked in the finals when he had to guard Curry in space. But he's an elite rim protector and a very good if not great defender overall. But you certainly have to have SOME scheme for him. Just like Lopez became a DPOY level guy once his team put him in drop with Giannis.

But all that aside, it's pretty important we go back and remember that the general message as been Jokic is an average to plus defender. Meaning he's on the plus side of average. Not that he's a good defender. Lets keep the frame correct here.

We can expand on this of course but I keep seeing you move the goal post to make it seem that we're arguing he's like a top 25-30% defender. I don't believe anyone is saying that.

An average defender can be someone who's pretty much always just meh. Or they can be someone who's a plus in the right scheme and a negative in the wrong one. That's why we hope to have coaches who optimize schemes for the personnel on the floor.

[DimesandKnicks]

Oh god...an ESPN article. At least give us a source from a site who's writers aren't paid to make their readers dumber.

Mean while you continue this never ending jibbersh about "what center does". And you keep missing that a big part of what also makes a defender a plus is that they're actually there to contest shots. Guys like Drummond that you claimed was a better defender aren't even in the plays because they don't have the motor to stay with them and contest anything.

These standards that you have to conjure up to pretend Jokic is a good defender are truly pathetic

You're literally ignoring every single piece of data there is to argue a point you can't even explain.

Think about everything we've covered.

We've basically covered every aspect of defense and all you can come back with is "but rim protection". Meanwhile Jokic literally prevents 6+ plays a game from ever getting to the rim.

Again, this gos for you too tsherkin:

Rim protection
Post defense
Defending in space

And I really can’t for the life of me understanding how you all can completely ignore that rim protection is easily the most important thing you want from your Center and not actually trying contest shots is a great way to boost your rebounding

[AleksandarN]

These standards that you have to conjure up to pretend Jokic is a good defender are truly pathetic

You're literally ignoring every single piece of data there is to argue a point you can't even explain.

Think about everything we've covered.

We've basically covered every aspect of defense and all you can come back with is "but rim protection". Meanwhile Jokic literally prevents 6+ plays a game from ever getting to the rim.

Again, this gos for you too tsherkin:

Rim protection
Post defense
Defending in space

And I really can’t for the life of me understanding how you all can completely ignore that rim protection is easily the most important thing you want from your Center and not actually trying contest shots is a great way to boost your rebounding

Defending in space? There is only 4 centers in the entire league that can defend in space without getting cooked. You being disingenuous is nothing new. No one is saying Jokic is an elite defender. Straight up Post defense he is not poor at. He stands his ground rarely gets pushed off his spot.

[DimesandKnicks]

You're literally ignoring every single piece of data there is to argue a point you can't even explain.

Think about everything we've covered.

We've basically covered every aspect of defense and all you can come back with is "but rim protection". Meanwhile Jokic literally prevents 6+ plays a game from ever getting to the rim.

Again, this gos for you too tsherkin:

Rim protection
Post defense
Defending in space

And I really can’t for the life of me understanding how you all can completely ignore that rim protection is easily the most important thing you want from your Center and not actually trying contest shots is a great way to boost your rebounding

Defending in space? There is only 4 centers in the entire league that can defend in space without getting cooked. You being disingenuous is nothing new. No one is saying Jokic is an elite defender. Straight up Post defense he is not poor at. He stands his ground rarely gets pushed off his spot.

You don’t seem to notice me not responding to you

[AleksandarN]

Again, this gos for you too tsherkin:

Rim protection
Post defense
Defending in space

And I really can’t for the life of me understanding how you all can completely ignore that rim protection is easily the most important thing you want from your Center and not actually trying contest shots is a great way to boost your rebounding

Defending in space? There is only 4 centers in the entire league that can defend in space without getting cooked. You being disingenuous is nothing new. No one is saying Jokic is an elite defender. Straight up Post defense he is not poor at. He stands his ground rarely gets pushed off his spot.

You don’t seem to notice me not responding to you

Yeah because you don’t like getting called out. It takes two to have an informed discussion sadly it is lacking on your end.

[Optms]

When it comes to rim protection, AG is the tallest PF that Jok has ever had and he is 6'8''. He has never had any help that side

He literally is the center. What help does Wemby have? He doesn't need it because Wemby is the anchor. We don't make these type of excuses for any other player. The excuses for Jokic being molasses inside are insane.

He was cooked by Rudy 'Olajuwon' Gobert in the low post last year while getting eliminated. That's all we need to know.

[DimesandKnicks]

Defending in space? There is only 4 centers in the entire league that can defend in space without getting cooked. You being disingenuous is nothing new. No one is saying Jokic is an elite defender. Straight up Post defense he is not poor at. He stands his ground rarely gets pushed off his spot.

You don’t seem to notice me not responding to you

Yeah because you don’t like getting called out. It takes two to have an informed discussion sadly it is lacking on your end.

Responding to everyone else so that can’t possibly be the reason, but sure.

[AleksandarN]

When it comes to rim protection, AG is the tallest PF that Jok has ever had and he is 6'8''. He has never had any help that side

He literally is the center. What help does Wemby have? He doesn't need it because Wemby is the anchor. We don't make these type of excuses for any other player. The excuses for Jokic being molasses inside are insane.

He was cooked by Rudy Gobert in the low post last year while getting eliminated. That's all we need to know.

Yeah totally cooked Rudy Gobert averaged 10.8 rebounds, 10.3 points and 1.8 assists in 6 games against the Nuggets in the 2024 Western Conference Semifinals.

[AleksandarN]

You don’t seem to notice me not responding to you

Yeah because you don’t like getting called out. It takes two to have an informed discussion sadly it is lacking on your end.

Responding to everyone else so that can’t possibly be the reason, but sure.

[7seventynine9]

Can yall tell me what makes Luka Doncic a bad defender despite being a great defensive rebounder and among the leaders in steals?

Not specifcally about Luka, but rebounds are more of a team scheme thing and sometimes high steal totals means the player is just gambling. If they don't get the steal, the player blows right by them for an easy 2.

[JM00n69]

When it comes to rim protection, AG is the tallest PF that Jok has ever had and he is 6'8''. He has never had any help that side

He literally is the center. What help does Wemby have? He doesn't need it because Wemby is the anchor. We don't make these type of excuses for any other player. The excuses for Jokic being molasses inside are insane.

He was cooked by Rudy 'Olajuwon' Gobert in the low post last year while getting eliminated. That's all we need to know.

When it comes to rim protection, AG is the tallest PF that Jok has ever had and he is 6'8''. He has never had any help that side.

Not sure what Wemby or Rudy have to do with what I said??