2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[slick_watts]

i'm not iverson's biggest fan and i haven't done exhaustive research on this, but although IT is more efficient (less so relative to their eras, but still) on offense, he might be one of the worst defensive players in nba history. such a polarized player is someone i'd avoid, in spite of their strengths at one end of the court.

the iverson embellishments in this thread are amusing though.

[RaptorRed]

That's your fault for not reading the original posts and thread title. Nobody is comparing their all time status or body of work. We are comparing one season. Also this era is absolutely not hands free. Handchecking had made a pretty damn big comeback in recent years. Watch the film more closely.

If Curry, Harden, LeBron, Durant haven't hit 33-35 ppg what makes you think a far inferior scorer would?

What is the purpose of comparing this season to Iverson ? You are obviously implying he is the better player. If that's not what you are implying please enlighten us what the point of this thread is ? and why iverson ?

I'm saying Isaiah just had a better season than Iverson ever did. It doesn't get more direct and simple than that.

so whose the better player iverson or thomas ?

[OkcSinceSGA]

What is the purpose of comparing this season to Iverson ? You are obviously implying he is the better player. If that's not what you are implying please enlighten us what the point of this thread is ? and why iverson ?

I'm saying Isaiah just had a better season than Iverson ever did. It doesn't get more direct and simple than that.

so whose the better player iverson or thomas ?

2017 Isaiah is better than 01 Iverson. Iverson as a whole wins a comparison obviously due to sustained play and career. Obviously one season isn't enough to declare someone flat out superior as a whole.

[reapaman]

You guys are acting like nerds demanding advanced statistics. If you really understand the game you'd recognize the difference in space each guy had to work with.

Well that's the problem. Both sides are saying the other doesn't understand the game, but the advance stats and analytics support one side while the other has absolutely nothing to support them even though they are the most aggressive with their opinion.

Its like people would swear that they call more fouls today until I show them the basic stats that show fouls have gone down significantly league wide and for perimeter players than in any point in league history. Your understanding of the game is plain wrong.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Lol

I improved his shooting numbers less than 2% compared to his best seasons. You're joking about "too many assumptions" thing right

Bro you literally extrapolated Iverson to 45 ppg in this era. Curry, LeBron, Durant, Harden have barely cracked 30. You're **** nuts. You're claiming Iverson who can't shoot consistently would put up 15 ppg more than these players?

[deezerweeze]

Just finished watching Game 2 of the 01 Finals. The amount of spacing compared IT has compared to Iverson is just staggering. There are vast differences in team and era between these two that need to considered. The knowledgeable fans in this thread have already pointed this out, but it seems the stat-geeks aren't interested in context ( are they ever? )

[permaximum]

Lol

I improved his shooting numbers less than 2% compared to his best seasons. You're joking about "too many assumptions" thing right

Bro you literally extrapolated Iverson to 45 ppg in this era. Curry, LeBron, Durant, Harden have barely cracked 30. You're **** nuts. You're claiming Iverson who can't shoot consistently would put up 15 ppg more than these players?

Like I said I improved his shooting by less than 2% compared to his best seasons. The difference in PPG comes from going to the line more and playing more than those guys. It's simple as that.

[RaptorRed]

I'm saying Isaiah just had a better season than Iverson ever did. It doesn't get more direct and simple than that.

so whose the better player iverson or thomas ?

2017 Isaiah is better than 01 Iverson. Iverson as a whole wins a comparison obviously due to sustained play and career. Obviously one season isn't enough to declare someone flat out superior as a whole.

yeah , obviously it's only a matter of time until thomas surpasses

[slick_watts]

I'm saying Isaiah just had a better season than Iverson ever did. It doesn't get more direct and simple than that.

so whose the better player iverson or thomas ?

2017 Isaiah is better than 01 Iverson. Iverson as a whole wins a comparison obviously due to sustained play and career. Obviously one season isn't enough to declare someone flat out superior as a whole.

i'm not sure about this. IT has been fantastic on offense but the celtics are giving up 112pp100 with him on the court this year after finishing last season with a top five defense. and the apm type stuff really doesn't like him. also how are you 5'7" and only have 1.3% STL?

[OkcSinceSGA]

For a quick glimpse;

Iverson at prime in today's game could be by going conservative improvements

44 MPG (he was always the league leader)
10 APG (could make more than 7.5 APG 3 times)
6 RPG (could make 4.9 RPG)
3 SPG (could make 2.8 constanly in his prime)
1 BPG
4 TPG
48% FG (4 times averaged between 44-47%)
37% 3P ( 4 times averaged between 34-36%)
84% FT ( His best was 89% for half a year and 84% for a full year)
36 FG per 100 poss (34.4 was his best)
8 3P per 100 poss (7.5 was his best)
21 FT per 100 poss (14.4 was hist best)

45 PPG (could make 33 ppg at 31 years old)

Today one game generally consists of 89 possessions. With 44 MPG 48% FG 37% 3P 84% FT, Iverson would exactly average 45 PPG.

SO many assumptions, so little data and evidence. That's all Iverson fan boys are adding to this discussion sadly. You're saying Iverson would be 15 ppg better than Harden, Curry, LeBron, Durant have been in recent years. You don't see the insanity of that? He didnt have a reliable 3 point shot. Teams WANT you to beat them from midrange now, which was Iverson's go to. He's no CP3 from mid range either.

Like I said I improved his shooting by less than 2% compared to his best seasons. The difference in PPG comes from going to the line more and playing more than those guys. It's simple as that.

Iverson got to the line plenty. He wouldn't go more than Harden who shoots what 11?

[OkcSinceSGA]

so whose the better player iverson or thomas ?

2017 Isaiah is better than 01 Iverson. Iverson as a whole wins a comparison obviously due to sustained play and career. Obviously one season isn't enough to declare someone flat out superior as a whole.

yeah , obviously it's only a matter of time until thomas surpasses

Didn't say that either. I give it pretty much 0% that Isaiah ever has Iverson's body of work. Get out of your feelings buddy .

[permaximum]

SO many assumptions, so little data and evidence. That's all Iverson fan boys are adding to this discussion sadly. You're saying Iverson would be 15 ppg better than Harden, Curry, LeBron, Durant have been in recent years. You don't see the insanity of that? He didnt have a reliable 3 point shot. Teams WANT you to beat them from midrange now, which was Iverson's go to. He's no CP3 from mid range either.

Like I said I improved his shooting by less than 2% compared to his best seasons. The difference in PPG comes from going to the line more and playing more than those guys. It's simple as that.

Iverson got to the line plenty. He wouldn't go more than Harden who shoots what 11?

In the handcheck era Iverson went to the line 12 times per game

[permaximum]

Also isn't it strange that we don't talk about defensive side of the things as well? Iverson got DPOY and All-Defensive Team votes in his prime constantly although he didn't make the team.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Just finished watching Game 2 of the 01 Finals. The amount of spacing compared IT has compared to Iverson is just staggering. There are vast differences in team and era between these two that need to considered. The knowledgeable fans in this thread have already pointed this out, but it seems the stat-geeks aren't interested in context ( are they ever? )

Problem is you can't cherry pick like you guys are doing and expect to be taken seriously. The bottom line is some things are much easier now for a wing, some are harder. In the end he would likely gain some efficiency, lose some volume and break right around 30 ppg. He's not a better scorer than the 4 premier scorers in our game right now.

[RaptorRed]

2017 Isaiah is better than 01 Iverson. Iverson as a whole wins a comparison obviously due to sustained play and career. Obviously one season isn't enough to declare someone flat out superior as a whole.

yeah , obviously it's only a matter of time until thomas surpasses

Didn't say that either. I give it pretty much 0% that Isaiah ever has Iverson's body of work. Get out of your feelings buddy .

why ? if 17 thomas > 01 iverson and thomas is only 27 he should be able to sustain this for at least 5 more seasons. Right ? Or do you think he will regress ? You already stated the Iverson MVP means nothing to you so why don't you just say Thomas will be the better player? What accolades will Thomas not be able to achieve ?

[OkcSinceSGA]

Like I said I improved his shooting by less than 2% compared to his best seasons. The difference in PPG comes from going to the line more and playing more than those guys. It's simple as that.

Iverson got to the line plenty. He wouldn't go more than Harden who shoots what 11?

In the handcheck era Iverson went to the line 12 times per game

Handchecking is happening a lot right now. This is a misnomer and revisionist history. Harden and Westbrook average 11 and they are arguably more aggressive on the paint than even AI. So this is a weak argument.

[magicman1978]

45pts per game is not possible. If you think it is then it destroys any sense of objectiveness you may have in this argument.

For those looking for facts that show Iverson would have had it easier in this era - how do you explain away the following:

During the 12 years of Iverson's prime - 1997-2008 - there were 8 different players 6'4" and shorter that average more than 30points per 100 possessions. Only 4 times did they have a TS of 57% of better. Across 12 years! This season alone, there are 14 players 6'4" and shorter that score more than 30 points per 100 possessions and 10 of them with a TS% of 57% or better. 10 this year vs 4 over 12 years - that's equivalent to a 3000% increase.

This season has been a statistical anomaly and makes a straight up comparison a bit difficult. I would lean towards Thomas being better offensively, but I don't think it's by as big as a gap as many Thomas supporters make it out to be.

[OkcSinceSGA]

yeah , obviously it's only a matter of time until thomas surpasses

Didn't say that either. I give it pretty much 0% that Isaiah ever has Iverson's body of work. Get out of your feelings buddy .

why ? if 17 thomas > 01 iverson and thomas is only 27 he should be able to sustain this for at least 5 more seasons. Right ? Or do you think he will regress ? You already stated the Iverson MVP means nothing to you so why don't you just say Thomas will be the better player? What accolades will Thomas not be able to achieve ?

1. I doubt IT does it again, if so maybe once more. Even 5 seasons of this won't offset Iverson's entire 10+ year career as a star probably.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Btw when handchecking temporarily relaxed in Iverson's most efficient season he only averaged a tad over 9 free throw attempts per game.

[OkcSinceSGA]

45pts per game is not possible. If you think it is then it destroys any sense of objectiveness you may have in this argument.

For those looking for facts that show Iverson would have had it easier in this era - how do you explain away the following:

During the 12 years of Iverson's prime - 1997-2008 - there were 8 different players 6'4" and shorter that average more than 30points per 100 possessions. Only 4 times did they have a TS of 57% of better. Across 12 years! This season alone, there are 14 players 6'4" and shorter that score more than 30 points per 100 possessions and 10 of them with a TS% of 57% or better. 10 this year vs 4 over 12 years - that's equivalent to a 3000% increase.

This season has been a statistical anomaly and makes a straight up comparison a bit difficult. I would lean towards Thomas being better offensively, but I don't think it's by as big as a gap as many Thomas supporters make it out to be.

Everyone on the other side already acknowledged Iverson's efficiency would go up a bit. What I'm contesting is the people outright dismissing the comparison with emotions and saying ridiculous things like Iverson would average 40+ right now etc.

Also people citing Iverson's defensive team appearances as proof he was a good defender are off. Iverson gambled a TON on defense. He racked up steals. That's not good defense. He would get roasted with the shooters in this league now for doing that. So flashy steals stats does not make someone a good defender.