76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#421 » by J_T » Sat Nov 6, 2021 7:41 pm

rzzzzz wrote:If Ben has been receiving counseling/treatment, etc. from a professional referred to him by the Players Association since Summer, which his side has revealed to the public regardless of HIPAA protection, then he has some leg to stand on. But to expect to be fully compensated without supplying ongoing info to his employer…? The fact that they’ve returned to fining him must mean they think they have some leg to stand on as well.

I am not sure about something, does anyone know for certain? Can the NBA team force player into certain type of treatment, against fine that is? In NHL that is the case. Currently the best known case is Jack Eichel. What does NBA CBA say?
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#422 » by Tomjas » Sat Nov 6, 2021 7:43 pm

BigGargamel wrote:The Sixers having the best record in the East is the worst thing that could happen to Morey. They're literally better without him. He has zero trade value. Dude just needs to accept it, grab a McCollum type and move on. This team is still in it's prime and the East is wide open. Kill the distraction.


They have had the 5th easiest schedule in the nba with their 2 losses coming against 2 of only 3 teams they have played with winning records
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#423 » by Karate Diop » Sat Nov 6, 2021 7:43 pm

BigGargamel wrote:The Sixers having the best record in the East is the worst thing that could happen to Morey. They're literally better without him. He has zero trade value. Dude just needs to accept it, grab a McCollum type and move on. This team is still in it's prime and the East is wide open. Kill the distraction.


They're not better without him and they barely have the best record in the East with so few games played...
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#424 » by DusterBuster » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:01 pm

Nuntius wrote:
DusterBuster wrote:
axeman23 wrote:
Sixers ABSOLUTELY have the right to be kept up to date with how things are progressing. ZERO argument there. Although its funny that if its a psychiatrist of Ben's choosing, there's apparently a significant risk of the psychiatrist "just being there for the pay cheque", but we should have ZERO doubts about the Philly staff's motives, right? :dontknow:


He should be free to choose who he wants, but the team should be able to vet his choice and make sure he’s actually going to try and make progress in a good faith way. It’s their money on the line… they shouldn’t have to pay someone when they aren’t working for them.


You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

If the answer to the questions above is yes, how did that make you feel? Didn't you feel that it was an intrusion of your privacy? Wouldn't you prefer it if your workplace had a strong union that prevented your employer from intruding on what is an extremely sensitive subject?

At the end of the day, this is a discussion about worker's rights for me. It is about the right of a worker/employee keeping sensitive information, like mental health, private. It is about the employer not having any kind of oversight and unfettered access over their employee's medical information.

Do not for a second think that what happens in the NBA cannot happen elsewhere. If NBA organizations get to play fast and loose with worker's rights like that then what is stopping others from doing so? If the Sixers can freely violate Ben Simmons' medical privacy because we don't like Ben then what is stopping your boss from doing so? They can easily say that since NBA teams, huge organizations worth billions of dollars, can do it then he should also be allowed to do it. And in the workplaces that this stuff already happens, it only helps to legitimize their practices. It sets a horrible precedent that can harm people. Why allow it? Just because we believe that Ben is entitled?

Situations like this one affect a lot more than just the NBA. We should be cognizant of that fact.

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.


My mental health issues and my employment were two completely separate issues. My mental health issues did not result in me not being able to continue my employment, so literally any answer to that questions would be purely speculative.

If my mental health issues were a direct result of me not being able to work, I would expect the same scrutiny as I would get if it were workman’s comp and I was collecting money on that while injured. If the company has reason to believe I was being disingenuous about my claims and wanted proof, I would be happy to provide any evidence requested because I would personally never be someone who would actively deceive my company for profit.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#425 » by Curmudgeon » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:08 pm

The whole thing is a sham, and Klutch Sports (the people who are obviously behind it) should be ashamed of themselves for demeaning people who actually have mental health issues.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#426 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:38 pm

Nuntius wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Nuntius wrote:You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

[...]

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.


would you be this sympathetic if it was a non performing CEO refusing to work, mentioning mental health issues, givibg no details and demanding to get paid in the process?
This is much closer to the Simmons situation.

Anyway, I would find completely normal if I am calling myself sick for an extended time that the employer would ask for proof, before continuing to pay me.
I have worked in many places in Europe, this is how it works.
I find it very unlikely that in the US the worker can demand the money without any proof.

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1) I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the "demand getting paid part". My argument on this thread has not focused on that part at all. It has focused on whether an employer should have the right to their employee's sensitive medical information and the way that mental health is treated in society, especially among in sports cycles.

2) If a CEO was in a similar situation (his bosses disputing his mental health issues and so on) then, yeah, I'd probably be sympathetic.
Because had Simmons not demanded to get paid there would have been no discussion. What thw Sixers could have done to him, then?

To be honest, it would have made his claims more credible to me as well, but that's not really relevant to anybody but myself.

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#427 » by LAL1947 » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:41 pm

Edit: Deleted because I got too far into something very far away from sports. Apologies. :)
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#428 » by C.Boshly » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:41 pm

Nuntius wrote:
TdotRap4Lyfe wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
He refused to fly for a very valid reason, though. It harmed his mental health. This was well-known before he was drafted. The Rockets still elected to draft him and then proceeded to not give a crap about these issues. If you don't want to deal with that "baggage", as you put it, then why do you draft the guy?

After a while, White also refused to play home games. He didn't even want to drive locally by bus to certain road games if my memory serves me correctly.


White wanted the NBA to institute a league-wide mental health policy. He wanted a league-wide protocol for dealing with these situations. The league refused to do that. White also said that team executives shouldn't be able to make decisions regarding mental health without the appropriate training but that seemingly still fell on deaf ears. He and the Rockets tried to make it work a number of times but it never lasted. The league just never took this issue seriously enough as White wasn't a very high profile player.

Let's hope that they pay more attention now.


It’s pretty well documented that Royce White has issues with flying and wanted special accommodations without playing a single game which you are ignoring. Not sure if it is really realistic to expect the league to be able to put a league wide mental health policy/protocol on the whim of an NBA rookie who has never played a game. Practically these things take time. NBA would need to hire/consult with health care professionals, player reps and owners and do their own studies.

I think you use the mental health issue like a bludgeon instead of a nuanced approach. I have personal experience seeing people navigating careers who suffer from mental health issues. Having a mental health issue doesn’t preclude you from the responsibilities of fulfilling your job duties.

Practically a player has to make it to the arena to participate in games. If they cannot do that maybe they shouldn’t play in the NBA.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#429 » by Tacoma » Sat Nov 6, 2021 8:46 pm

kuclas wrote:
Celts17Pride wrote:Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.


Where do you draw the line at the # years remaining in the contract for you to say it's OK to demand a trade like the Kyrie situation? Is it 2 years? Maybe it's 3, but 4 is bad? And 1 year is cool too, so then Kawhi was in the right and Spurs fans were just whining. What I see is you're drawing the line in the place to justify Morey's position and calling it "winning."

There is no winner in this pissing contest between 2 egomaniacs. Both sides are losing. I agree Simmons is in the wrong here but the longer this drags out, the worse it gets for the Sixers. It's not about winning at this point but rather about cutting your losses.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#430 » by HotRocks34 » Sat Nov 6, 2021 9:10 pm

As I and others have written above in this thread, the CBA seems pretty clear on this issue (team gets to have info, if team wants it, on the medical situation if a player uses a specialist who does not work for the team).

However, there is a loophole, I think. It's a short-term loophole but it's a loophole. And you can see it here, apparently coming from Simmons' camp:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32535761/ben-simmons-meet-philadelphia-76ers-doctors-talk-mental-readiness

Sources close to Simmons told ESPN they expect to provide the team with updates on his progress once he is comfortable doing so.


The CBA text does not seem to indicate (at least not from the sections I've seen quoted in this thread) WHEN the player has to provide the required outside-medical-specialist information to the team.

Thus, if you're Simmons you can simply reply, as is done above, that you're going to give the team the information...you just haven't done it yet. But you will, at some time in the future.

Because the time element of this (when does the team have access to the medical info?) is apparently not stated in the CBA, both sides seem to have an argument. The Sixers can say that a reasonable amount of time has passed for them to already have the info, and the Simmons camp can say that a reasonable amount of time has not yet passed.

So perhaps an issue for an arbiter.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#431 » by VDT » Sat Nov 6, 2021 9:35 pm

Nuntius wrote:
In theory yes but in practice? The Sixers outright discredited the third party medical professional that Markelle Fultz used. Similarly, people (not the Sixers themselves so far, at least) are discrediting the NBPA's medical professional. The Sixers keep insisting that Ben uses their own medical team (just like they did with Fultz) despite the fact that the Sixers' medical team has been proved to be untrustworthy in those matters. So, yeah, the practice is different from the theory and that's an issue.


Huh? Fultz barely played for the Sixers precisely because they tried to be extra careful with him. I am not sure what the Sixers did wrong here. For what it's worth, Fultz and his shooting form hasnt really recoverd from that "injury" to this day so Orlando's medical team hasnt faired any better. I get why Fultz did what he did (he was trying to save his career), but i dont see how Fultz trying to find a doctor to give him a diagnosis (TOS) that was virtually impossible to verify reflects badly on the Sixers medical team. His shooting form is still terrible and its been some years since he moved away from the Sixers medical team. In any case, i dont see how Fultz is in any way relevant here. Simmons has been treated by the same medical team (which, bear in mind, has changed over the years) multiple times over these years and he never had an issue with them. It's reasonable to say that the team's medical team might not be completely impartial but Simmons shouldnt have any reason to mistrust them. Also, i dont see how the Sixers are discrediting the NBPA medical proffessional (who shouldnt be considered impartial either). The only issue at the moment is that the team has the right to know what Simmons is doing, whether he has been diagnosed with any mental illness and what are the steps and the timeline for his return and Simmons' side is not cooperating. The same thing that any team would do with any injured player somehow has become a matter of controversy and debate here.


Nuntius wrote:The CBA excerpt in question was very murky when it comes to mental health related services, though. It is not clear what kind of information Simmons would have to provide the team, if any. We'll see how it goes in the following days. This definitely isn't the last we hear about this topic.


The excerpt was pretty clear. If the player is seeing a physician (psychiatrist or not) to get a diagnosis about an illness/injury then the team has the right to know what it's going on. i might add that it is pretty reeasonable for a player that is not able to provide his services for a medical reason to provide some proof for that and to be in contact with the team in the meantime. Again, this is a pretty standard and reasonable practice, i am not sure why the Sixers request is viewed as something extraordinary by some people here.


Nuntius wrote:Is it actually disingenuous, though, or is it something that you just personally disagree with? You can definitely say that athletes do not provide anything essential for society but the same goes for a ton of other jobs, some of which are paid even more than athletes. A prime examples? NBA team owners. They provide a lot less than the players and make almost 10 times more. These are the same people that a lot of posters in this thread have been defending, by the way. That's rather **** up, if you ask me.



NBA level athletes should never ever be compared with normal workers/employees since their bargaining power is orders of magnitude bigger, which is why they are getting these ridiculous salaries. No one is defending the owners here, but trying to compare NBA athletes, and stars at that, to normal people working 9-5 and claim that whatever agreement they negotiate with the owners will be relevant to and impact the working rights of normal people is indeed disingenuous.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#432 » by DusterBuster » Sat Nov 6, 2021 9:54 pm

C.Boshly wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
TdotRap4Lyfe wrote:After a while, White also refused to play home games. He didn't even want to drive locally by bus to certain road games if my memory serves me correctly.


White wanted the NBA to institute a league-wide mental health policy. He wanted a league-wide protocol for dealing with these situations. The league refused to do that. White also said that team executives shouldn't be able to make decisions regarding mental health without the appropriate training but that seemingly still fell on deaf ears. He and the Rockets tried to make it work a number of times but it never lasted. The league just never took this issue seriously enough as White wasn't a very high profile player.

Let's hope that they pay more attention now.


It’s pretty well documented that Royce White has issues with flying and wanted special accommodations without playing a single game which you are ignoring. Not sure if it is really realistic to expect the league to be able to put a league wide mental health policy/protocol on the whim of an NBA rookie who has never played a game. Practically these things take time. NBA would need to hire/consult with health care professionals, player reps and owners and do their own studies.

I think you use the mental health issue like a bludgeon instead of a nuanced approach. I have personal experience seeing people navigating careers who suffer from mental health issues. Having a mental health issue doesn’t preclude you from the responsibilities of fulfilling your job duties.

Practically a player has to make it to the arena to participate in games. If they cannot do that maybe they shouldn’t play in the NBA.


So good. Thank you!!

What I don’t get, for all the people that just blindly believe Simmons claim of mental health problems as a reason he can’t play… what about Kevin Love? He’s been very open about his battles with mental health issues, he could easily claim those issues are preventing him from playing for the Cavs, a team and situation he’s clearly not happy about… dude still plays every game.

I get it, each persons different, but his issues are not inherently a reason to not play. His issues also came to light in a fairly curious timing of a battle between himself and the team. It just screams of someone trying to abuse a system that should be there to help people who are actually in need. I could be wrong, but all evidence points the other way.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#433 » by Yoshun » Sat Nov 6, 2021 10:22 pm

DusterBuster wrote:
C.Boshly wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
White wanted the NBA to institute a league-wide mental health policy. He wanted a league-wide protocol for dealing with these situations. The league refused to do that. White also said that team executives shouldn't be able to make decisions regarding mental health without the appropriate training but that seemingly still fell on deaf ears. He and the Rockets tried to make it work a number of times but it never lasted. The league just never took this issue seriously enough as White wasn't a very high profile player.

Let's hope that they pay more attention now.


It’s pretty well documented that Royce White has issues with flying and wanted special accommodations without playing a single game which you are ignoring. Not sure if it is really realistic to expect the league to be able to put a league wide mental health policy/protocol on the whim of an NBA rookie who has never played a game. Practically these things take time. NBA would need to hire/consult with health care professionals, player reps and owners and do their own studies.

I think you use the mental health issue like a bludgeon instead of a nuanced approach. I have personal experience seeing people navigating careers who suffer from mental health issues. Having a mental health issue doesn’t preclude you from the responsibilities of fulfilling your job duties.

Practically a player has to make it to the arena to participate in games. If they cannot do that maybe they shouldn’t play in the NBA.


So good. Thank you!!

What I don’t get, for all the people that just blindly believe Simmons claim of mental health problems as a reason he can’t play… what about Kevin Love? He’s been very open about his battles with mental health issues, he could easily claim those issues are preventing him from playing for the Cavs, a team and situation he’s clearly not happy about… dude still plays every game.

I get it, each persons different, but his issues are not inherently a reason to not play. His issues also came to light in a fairly curious timing of a battle between himself and the team. It just screams of someone trying to abuse a system that should be there to help people who are actually in need. I could be wrong, but all evidence points the other way.


You answered some of your own questions here.

Kevin Love's struggles were, in part, made worse when he was unable to play. People are different, his problems may have been different from whatever Simmons is dealing with. Love wrote a letter discussing his struggles. He also wrote about how important it is to create an environment where people feel comfortable talking about it. It's worth a read:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/kevin-love-everyone-is-going-through-something/amp

The second thing to note is that you don't actually know what his issues are, so you can't really say with any real certainty if they are or are not inherently a reason to not play.

Third, you don't know if his problems suddenly came about during his battle with the team. Whatever he is dealing with may have been going on for some time prior to this and just became worse when this stuff with the Sixers started. Something like this can create a great deal of stress which can make medical issues worse.

The last thing is, there really is no evidence pointing any way. All we know right now is: 1. Simmons is not playing: 2. The Sixers are saying they're asking him for stuff and saying he's not responding. We don't know if that's true or what they're actually asking him for.; 3. Simmons and his team have said very little about it.

Is Simmons experiencing mental health issues? I have no idea. However, there is no real reason to believe he is or isn't. People need the benefit of the doubt some times. That's one way to create an environment where people can talk. If you shut it down or jump to conclusions before you have enough information you run the risk of shutting out other people you can't even see.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#434 » by Sixerscan » Sat Nov 6, 2021 11:39 pm

Yoshun wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
I wasn't pointing you out specifically, apologies if it came across that way. There seem to be a lot of people in here just popping in and making statements like, "Give the brat what he deserves." That said, how do you know he hasn't shown his work?

I have been following it, probably not as closely as you, but it is an area of interest of mine. I'm a fan of many of the Sixers' players ( Embiid, Harris, Thybulle and Simmons to name a few) and anything mental health related sparks my interest. I've been seeing a lot of vague responses from the Sixers and almost nothing from Simmons. I'd like to know what they mean by "basic details" for example.

From them: What exactly are they asking of him?

From him: What are you doing to get better?

Because he got fined for not providing basic information and none of him, his agent or the players association have disputed it? What else is there to go off of?

I don't know what exactly the Sixers are asking him for (I would assume it's stuff like (a) have you been diagnosed by a psychiatrist (b) what is your diagnosis (c) what are you doing to treat it) but by all reports he's given them basically nothing:

Sixers officials believe that they have been supportive of Simmons' stated need for mental health assistance and that they are left no choice but for these actions in response to the three-time All-Star's refusal to provide basic details of his course of mental health meetings, evaluation or treatments or to accept consultation with any specialists arranged by the team, sources said.
...
After Simmons incurred $2 million in penalties for a training camp holdout and limited return to the team, Philadelphia stopped fining him two weeks ago when he told team officials and teammates that he wasn't mentally prepared to play and planned to seek professional assistance.

In that time, Simmons, 25, has worked cooperatively with his own and team physicians on a back ailment but has told the Sixers repeatedly that he is unwilling to share information on his course of action in pursuing mental health treatment, sources said.


Right, that's kind of what I'm saying. There is nothing else to go off of. All we have is the Sixers saying, " We asked him for stuff and he didn't give it to us." Along with assumptions as to what they're asking for. We really don't know what they're asking for or what Simmons has given them. Pretty much all of the reports we have to go off of have been from the Sixers. It just sounds like there could be a lot we don't know.


Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#435 » by Pythagoras » Sun Nov 7, 2021 12:08 am

Sixerscan wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Because he got fined for not providing basic information and none of him, his agent or the players association have disputed it? What else is there to go off of?

I don't know what exactly the Sixers are asking him for (I would assume it's stuff like (a) have you been diagnosed by a psychiatrist (b) what is your diagnosis (c) what are you doing to treat it) but by all reports he's given them basically nothing:



Right, that's kind of what I'm saying. There is nothing else to go off of. All we have is the Sixers saying, " We asked him for stuff and he didn't give it to us." Along with assumptions as to what they're asking for. We really don't know what they're asking for or what Simmons has given them. Pretty much all of the reports we have to go off of have been from the Sixers. It just sounds like there could be a lot we don't know.


Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.


I’m a big supporter of player empowerment and awareness for mental health issues in this country, but I’m having a hard time finding sympathy for Ben. I’m sure he has some anxiety about playing for the Sixers but it’s a situation he’s caused.

If a guy cheats on his wife, and then texts her that he wants a divorce and is seeing someone else, and then also refuses to answer her calls for the next several weeks, he would have created an unpleasant situation. I’m sure this theoretical guy would indeed have anxiety about having to see his ex-wife face to face again too. That doesn’t mean he gets to claim the thought of having to face his ex is causing mental illness.

There’s a difference between having some anxiety about being in an uncomfortable position and having true mental illness.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#436 » by MrBigShot » Sun Nov 7, 2021 12:43 am

There are definitely some mental conditions severe enough that an athlete couldn't play through them. For example, a major depressive episode triggered by a traumatic event like the loss of a family member could cause issues sleeping, loss of appetite, extreme fatigue, anhedonia ect... and there are anxiety disorders that could also be severe enough; Kevin Love had to leave a game because he had a panic attack. A mental condition severe enough to prevent a player from playing indefinitely, as I mentioned previously in this thread, would seep into other aspects of your life (personal relationships, general health, hygiene) and isn't something that can be fixed overnight by a trade. An individual serious about treating a condition that severe would go to a psychiatrist for an evaluation and explore all possible treatment options.

That's what makes it so important to ensure that Ben & Klutch are not falsifying this.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#437 » by shangrila » Sun Nov 7, 2021 12:51 am

Pythagoras wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
Right, that's kind of what I'm saying. There is nothing else to go off of. All we have is the Sixers saying, " We asked him for stuff and he didn't give it to us." Along with assumptions as to what they're asking for. We really don't know what they're asking for or what Simmons has given them. Pretty much all of the reports we have to go off of have been from the Sixers. It just sounds like there could be a lot we don't know.


Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.


I’m a big supporter of player empowerment and awareness for mental health issues in this country, but I’m having a hard time finding sympathy for Ben. I’m sure he has some anxiety about playing for the Sixers but it’s a situation he’s caused.

If a guy cheats on his wife, and then texts her that he wants a divorce and is seeing someone else, and then also refuses to answer her calls for the next several weeks, he would have created an unpleasant situation. I’m sure this theoretical guy would indeed have anxiety about having to see his ex-wife face to face again too. That doesn’t mean he gets to claim the thought of having to face his ex is causing mental illness.

There’s a difference between having some anxiety about being in an uncomfortable position and having true mental illness.

WTF :lol:

What an oddly specific example that isn’t at all relevant.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#438 » by Pythagoras » Sun Nov 7, 2021 1:43 am

shangrila wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.


I’m a big supporter of player empowerment and awareness for mental health issues in this country, but I’m having a hard time finding sympathy for Ben. I’m sure he has some anxiety about playing for the Sixers but it’s a situation he’s caused.

If a guy cheats on his wife, and then texts her that he wants a divorce and is seeing someone else, and then also refuses to answer her calls for the next several weeks, he would have created an unpleasant situation. I’m sure this theoretical guy would indeed have anxiety about having to see his ex-wife face to face again too. That doesn’t mean he gets to claim the thought of having to face his ex is causing mental illness.

There’s a difference between having some anxiety about being in an uncomfortable position and having true mental illness.

WTF :lol:

What an oddly specific example that isn’t at all relevant.


Because you don’t understand analogies?
Numbers rule the universe.
HotelVitale
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#439 » by HotelVitale » Sun Nov 7, 2021 1:53 am

LAL1947 wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.


Lol, it is. The hardest thing about American politics (it's everywhere but way worse in the US) is that so much of the whole game is the right posturing about how being tough, taking control, not making excuses, etc is the solution for everything, and that line of talk is so effective/dominant that the rest of politics is basically struggling to compromise so there's something--anything, however small--besides that stance in power. There's never a real conversation about the best way to deal with social or economic issues, since the threat of 'just shut up, the system is the system and everyone should suffer if they don't fall in line with it' starts as the dominant voice. Climate change? Wild inequality? Pandemic killing people? Shut up and don't even think about blaming the system, just go out there and do what you have to--only weaklings, extremists with agendas, and pathetic people who can't get over their feelings can't man up and thrive in this system we got.

I only have 1 word to say to you... clueless. The world isn't the US of A. And everything you're sold is a lie. The modern left is the harbinger of doom, and you knobs don't even realize it. Let's start with something as benign as climate change... without even getting into real and actual politics or economic policy. For a living, I am involved with companies/exchanges that profit from selling you the idea that climate control is achievable or desirable. You're a dumbass if you believe it, because our only goal is to convince you that it is real... the court of public opinion can be so very profitable. We (the industry) makes **** loads of money thru carbon credit trading and our personal project funding. I'm ashamed to admit it... but we control everything from good work being done in 3rd world countries (for carbon credits), and our companies don't even use our own money but use charitable donations (mostly from the US gov or US Christian organizations) to fund that work, yet we've created separate rating agencies which these NGOs have to pay a fee to in order to get a carbon credit rating, and when they've earned a carbon credit they have to sell it to companies such as the one I'm involved with for a pittance (it doesn't even matter that we're the ones issuing the ratings that allow them to earn a credit). "We" then get to sell these credits to EU/US companies for millions/billions. The biggest clientele is EU, because they're much more corrupt than US companies but still have a moral/social facade to maintain. We can't sell as much to Asian/African/South American companies because they're the most corrupt of all. They will literally laugh at us for trying to sell them a credit... and the only time they buy is if they have to maintain an appearance to the US, lol. The only industry that has been more profitable in the last 10-15 years is oil... excluding early crypto investors.

Anyway, you're clueless... as is most anyone I've ever spoken to about anything politically. Just read... that's all I ever say, just read! Learn the history of this world and about all of its people and all of their actions. We cannot have selective amnesia preferences when it comes to history (<<< even if you disagree with me about anything else I say, you cannot disagree with this 1 statement). AFAIC, white people aren't a problem, they and what they have done in the last 50-100 years is the solution. The problem we (the rest of the world) faces, as people, going forward, is the new world elites, who come from non-white races... because our cultures and thought processes are not as generous or benign as theirs are today (i.e., Judeo-Christian + British common law based). If you disagree, let's have a conversation about this.

And if you disagree, then before I have a conversation with you, I'd like you to name just one non-white country that ever gave as much credence to human lives + rights as the USA does. If you can't even name one... you're not worth my time.


So I'm literally a professional lobbyist who has worked for NGOs for years, and yes I understand that there's always money (and clout) to be made off of whatever public policy wins the day and that we're all always exaggerating our own positions to win that argument and gain in various ways from that. I also have a PhD in comparative humanities, for what it's worth, so yes I have a good grasp on various civilizations and empires and how the hunt for power is constant and ruthless.

I'm not gonna wade through this piece by piece or anything, but I will make one simple observation that hopefully helps you out here. I made a little crack about an obvious thing about US politics--as soon as any proposal about anything arises, there's an immediate backlash telling people to shut up since everything is totally fine that governs that conversation; and you instinctively responded with a massive wall of text that jumped from climate change is fake, I'm a sheep for not seeing that's all about money, white people are more benevolent than other ruling groups, non-white elites are the real problem we need to be scared about, etc.

Can you see why this might maybe exemplify how bringing up any problem is immediately met with an aggressive 'shut up about your little problem!'?
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#440 » by HotelVitale » Sun Nov 7, 2021 1:55 am

moderndarwin wrote:I am firmly against Ben Simmons on this topic. I find the argument that people are quick to take the side of the corporations not valid here. The players themselves have a representative body that dictates the rules of engagement. And unlike most other regulatory practices they meet and change these up every few years through a collaborative process. I find its absolute nonsense that a player would not follow these established guidelines.

Not sure anybody said anything like 'Simmons is right because corporations are bad' here. I didn't go back multiple pages to check this out but the recent things we talked about here were a few back and forths about someone saying (direct quote) 'The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.'

It can be true that the Sixers are right to pay Simmons and also that we shouldn't call him a shameful whiny brat that needs a beating. And beyond that, even if it's hard to respect Simmons or understand his POV here, the fantasy that reigning down violence will straighten him out (and solve most problems) is not grounded in reality.

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