DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[F N 11]

Mitchell Robinson, Grimes, or IQ better be somewhere…

[shrink]

DPOY is just that the best defense player is not the most durable defensive player.

You skipped the “Y.” DPOY is the Defensive Player of the YEAR, not Defensive Player of “Some of the Games.” (DPOSOG)

Basketball is a team sport, and when a guy doesn’t show up for work, he isn’t helping the team with his defense. In fact, since these guys are using up big chunks of payroll, they are actually making it harder to defend opponents when they don’t play.

[cupcakesnake]

Mitchell Robinson, Grimes, or IQ better be somewhere…

I do hear more people noticing and crediting Quickly's defensive work. Guard is the least competitive spot on the all-defense team. I think Jrue, Smart, and Caruso should be locks, but things get interesting for that 4th spot. Derrick White, Jevon Carter, KCP, De'Anthony Melton

Robinson and Grimes are awesome, but c'mon they have no change at the forward and center positions. There are 2 center spots and I don't Robinson jumping to the front of a line with Bam, Lopez, Claxton, Allen, Embiid, Gobert, Robert Williams, Al Horford all in the competition. Robinson should be on people's list, and might get some New York friendly ballots.

Grimes is trying to get into the same class of impact and/or reputation as: Draymond, OG, Jaden McDaniels, Mobley, A.Gordon, Giannis, Tatum, Bridges, Siakam, Jimmy Butler, Dillon Brooks, PJ Tucker, Thybulle, DFS. I don't see him busting through that thick wall of competition.

Every fan wants to see their team's best defensive players on the all-defense team. The reality is that the competition is pretty brutal.

[RRyder823]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

It's because he's otherworldly as a help defender and the Bucks have other defenders to go one on one



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[Magic Giannison]

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[Jurassic_Park]

2 man race between lopez and JJJ. Odds are very close with less than 20 games left.

[fteru6uhre54ew]

The best defender in the Nba but by a big margin is Anthony Davis. And I don't say it because he plays on the Lakers. If he played in the Bucks I would say the same or whatever team. The only player who can shut down alone a team on defense can defend any player and defend the weakside at once he doesn't have a hole there. Only his body stop him multiple times not letting have consistency same as his focus.

Giannis is not close to him on defense. Giannis is a great weakside defender but anything close to be an anchor who can protect the paint and change the shots when he plays at the 5 alone without Lopez the Bucks are much worst on defense they have a hole there always inside and the teams attack them much more inside he is just a teammate more on defense nothing close to be a leader in this aspect.

JJJ is a white brand Anthony Davis as a defender. He doesn't has to be half focussed on offense still doesn't reach the level and impact of Davis

Gobert is Anthony Davis at half speed he suffer outside the paint even being good changing on defense but he doesn't have the foot speed to be focused on both things.

Bam Adebayo is like JJJ but he has throw in the towel on this thing.

Lopez is a player that in his mid 30s got better on defense with the years now he can defend decently outside and can change with small players. Still is not close to Davis and his impact is going back to the basket and change the shot downlow like a traditional center and how is the style of the bucks defense.

Draymond Green Is a 6'8 AD even being smarter but the guy know that his career is close to being over has won everything his body is starting to get old for basketball more in his position and style and he doesn't have the fire and competitiveness to focus on this thing only in win another ring.

Garuba is like Draymond when he was young but doesn't having half his leadership and impact and he suffer to protect the paint inside for being a 6'8 still is young. And he is playing in a dump but can defend any player and position the weakside inside and outside. Tillman is like a little bit worst Garuba

Kawhi same as Draymond minus the defense inside but he could be the best one on one defender in the Nba easy if he wants he is much more focused on being the offensive leader of his team.

Smart is a good one on one defender can set the tone and let his body for his team great concentration winning plays and good weakside defense but that's it plus the flopping. It's not a player who can lead a defense.

And then you have the classic centers who change the shots The Fro is similar to Rudy with less impact, And the pest ones like Beverley, Dillion Brooks that his mouth talk even more than his defense. And the smart glue guys that doesn't having to much impact name and qualities for this thing only doing the right things help his team a lot

I don't know if I missed someone more here.

Tim Duncan for example never won a DPOY when he was a perfect defender and leader on defense. So the thropy at the end it is what it is. It has his value same as all those trophies and for let the people argue and the league and all the people arround them win money.

[Magic Giannison]

Giannis is not close to him on defense. Giannis is a great weakside defender but anything close to be an anchor who can protect the paint and change the shots when he plays at the 5 alone without Lopez the Bucks are much worst on defense they have a hole there always inside and the teams attack them much more inside he is just a teammate more on defense nothing close to be a leader in this aspect.

This is simply not true, Bucks without Brook and Giannis is top defense in the league....

In fact Bucks best lineup is Giannist at 5 small ball but because we use it situational its never talked about outside Bucks fans.


The above statement is just fully false.


There is no Bucks defense without Giannis.


EDIT: Giannis is literally the best defender under 5 feet, he also makes anyone shoot 7% worse from anywhere on the field.

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[fteru6uhre54ew]

Giannis is not close to him on defense. Giannis is a great weakside defender but anything close to be an anchor who can protect the paint and change the shots when he plays at the 5 alone without Lopez the Bucks are much worst on defense they have a hole there always inside and the teams attack them much more inside he is just a teammate more on defense nothing close to be a leader in this aspect.

This is simply not true, Bucks without Brook and Giannis is top defense in the league....

In fact Bucks best lineup is Giannist at 5 small ball but because we use it situational its never talked about outside Bucks fans.


The above statement is just fully false.


There is no Bucks defense without Giannis.


EDIT: Giannis is literally the best defender under 5 feet, he also makes anyone shoot 7% worse from anywhere on the field.

Read on Twitter

When you see the games you see what I'm actually saying it. Giannis on defense is more a forward or a guard than a big. He is not an anchor that's Lopez job he doesn't have the instincts of a big his natural way of be as a player is that an outside player more than an inside player. The guy bulldoze inside yeah but he always starts the plays like a guard ball handling the ball and attacking from the three point line to the inside sometimes he can put a screen and finish the play or play in the post but it's not a guy that operate mostly from the inside to the outside like the bigs. It's just like Lebron for example. Lebron at the 5 would be the same he is not a big he doesn't have the instints of a center never trained and was formed to do that same as Giannis.

[Magic Giannison]

Giannis is not close to him on defense. Giannis is a great weakside defender but anything close to be an anchor who can protect the paint and change the shots when he plays at the 5 alone without Lopez the Bucks are much worst on defense they have a hole there always inside and the teams attack them much more inside he is just a teammate more on defense nothing close to be a leader in this aspect.

This is simply not true, Bucks without Brook and Giannis is top defense in the league....

In fact Bucks best lineup is Giannist at 5 small ball but because we use it situational its never talked about outside Bucks fans.


The above statement is just fully false.


There is no Bucks defense without Giannis.


EDIT: Giannis is literally the best defender under 5 feet, he also makes anyone shoot 7% worse from anywhere on the field.

Read on Twitter

When you see the games you see what I'm actually saying it. Giannis on defense is more a forward or a guard than a big. He is not an anchor that's Lopez job he doesn't have the instincts of a big his natural way of be as a player is that an outside player more than an inside player. The guy bulldoze inside yeah but he always starts the plays like a guard ball handling the ball and attacking from the three point line to the inside sometimes he can put a screen and finish the play or play in the post but it's not a guy that operate mostly from the inside to the outside like the bigs. It's just like Lebron for example. Lebron at the 5 would be the same he is not a big he doesn't have the instints of a center never trained and was formed to do that same as Giannis.

Ive been watching Bucks in the last 10 years barely missing any of them and ever since Giannis became an all defensive team player the Bucks primary designed their defense around him like they did with his offense.

Because of him being such a fantastic help defense and versatile it is a crime to put him in a single possession and single him out, that would diminish his defensive versatility .

Th Bucks defense is still best in the league without Brook and Giannis playing, in fact Giannis leads the league in defending the rim.

Il quote Prez from the Bucks board from a week ago.

Among players who’ve contested 150+ FGA within 6 feet, Giannis is #1 in the league, holding opponents to 16.1% (lol) worse shooting at that range. Overall he’s holding opponents to 7.5% worse shooting, which among guys who’ve guarded a similar volume of shots is #1 by a distance. Even when Brook is off the floor (and filtering out any Nwora minutes lol), the Bucks still have the equivalent of the #1 defense in the league.

Giannis is still a menace defensively and the anchor of an absolutely elite team defense.

This combined with both numbers i mentioned in my previous post not only makes him the anchor of the Bucks but also makes him elite on multiple positions on the floor which is why since 2020 i believe he is the best defender in the league.

Giannis will never get played out of the floor defensively like Brook gets with his drop coverage and teams abusing it at times for example.


I post the famous defense video about Giannis posted years ago that is not only relevant today but highlights that Giannis improved on it and that Giannis there won the DPOY

Watch on YouTube

[yoyoboy]

Mobley is 1st in Luck-Adjusted D-RAPM, 1st in D-RPM, 1st in Defensive Win Shares, 4th in D-LEBRON while having played substantially more minutes than the three guys ahead of him, and he’s the driving force behind the #1 defense in the NBA that’s able to get away with playing a backcourt of two 6’1 players who have been known as bad defenders their whole careers. What he does defensively just isn’t adequately captured by the box score and his raw on-off defensive numbers are hurt by incredibly unlucky opponent 3P shooting, which leads some metrics like EPM and RAPTOR to believing that beyond Allen, guys like Dean Wade, LeVert, and even Love and Cedi are the true important contributors to the league’s #1 defense. RAPTOR views Rubio as by far the team’s most valuable defender, despite the fact that he’s played less than 10% of the team’s total minutes this season and when he returned from injury 43 games into the season, the team already had the #1 defense.

And while Mobley didn’t have the girth to man the center spot without Allen last year, which hurt the Cavs’ defense as a team, that hasn’t been the case this season as the Cavs have a 108.9 DRTG with Mobley on the court and no Allen in 981 minutes. Remove Love as well, and that figure drops to 105.5. The Cavs don’t even have stoppers on the perimeter so it’s basically just because of how much ground Mobley can cover that they’re able to be so effective on D with him at the 5 despite so many bleh defenders out there with him.

I think Mobley is going to be like Duncan in that he’ll never put up the flashy block numbers or be the pop-off-the-screen 1-on-1 defender that leads to winning a DPOY award, but in terms of defensive impact he’ll be up there with anybody in his generation just providing that consistent yet overlooked value.

[cupcakesnake]

This is simply not true, Bucks without Brook and Giannis is top defense in the league....

In fact Bucks best lineup is Giannist at 5 small ball but because we use it situational its never talked about outside Bucks fans.


The above statement is just fully false.


There is no Bucks defense without Giannis.

Brook without Giannis is technically the best Bucks defense this season:

Brook w/o Giannis: 108.8 Drtg
Giannis w/o Brook: 110.7 Drtg
Both on: 110.1 Drtg
Both off: 117 Drtrg

Now stuff like this is noisy because it depends so much on who the other 4 guys are in Brook-only or Giannis-only lineups. If the Bucks were building defensive lineups when Brook is the solo big, or offensive lineups around Giannis without Brook, that would more than explain it all away. I scanned the Bucks most used combos and couldn't really find evidence of that. They both play with Portis and Allen plenty, and the Bucks don't really have a secondary defensive big (is Joe Ingles their best defensive 4?).

We also have a whole season of the Bucks using Giannis as a small ball 5. Last year with Lopez out all year, the defense was average. That's not because Giannis isn't elite, it's because you're replacing Brook minutes with a mix of Portis minutes and way more small ball lineups. Guys like Jordan Nwora were getting minutes at the 4 next to Giannis, which makes it not a clean sample. Giannis + a good defensive forward and no Brook is not the same as Giannis + a bad defensive forward and no Brook.

Fortunately we have a nice sample of that too from 2021 in the playoffs with PJ Tucker. Put a strong defensive power forward like PJ next to Giannis at center, and that's a championship level defensive lineup still. The best lineup by the numbers was still all 3 of Brook, Giannis, and Lopez. Any 2 of those 3 still produced an ELITE defensive rating of around 105. Of those 3, Giannis was the only one to "anchor" that playoff defense solo, but there's limited minutes of either Brook or PJ solo so probably not a fair sample size and I didn't subtract garbage time.

I think we're getting into a bit of extremely dumb territory when we try to give all the defensive credit to one player. Defense is probably more team-oriented than offense and putting different lineups out there completely changes contexts. We simply don't see 1 player propping up defenses on their own in a way that can hold up to playoff strategy. Players really effect each other. Putting a dominant drop big like Lopez, Gobert, Allen allows more aggressive defensive playmaking from everyone. While Giannis is capable at any defensive role, his peak defensive role (what the Bucks build their defense around) is allowing Giannis to be a full-time disruptor all over the floor. If you make Giannis a primary rim protector, he can protect the rim, but you're sort of trapping him in the paint and not taking as much advantage of his ability to cover ground, disrupt, and bother anyone he's near. If you make Giannis a perimeter defender, he can't be involved in the play as much.

Brook and Giannis are both great defenders on their own. Neither of them are likely to create a top 5 defense without the other, if you're replacing them with a more offensive-oriented player. That's basically true of anyone in the NBA. All the best defenses this year have multiple all-defense level guys, so we're going to have to work harder to assess player value rather than just throwing one guy under the bus to prop up the other.

[ReasonablySober]

I think the Bucks have strong candidates in Giannis and Brook, but the DPOY is Jrue.

[skones]

Th Bucks defense is still best in the league without Brook and Giannis playing, in fact Giannis leads the league in defending the rim.

Nah man. We were 14th in DRTG last year in large part because we were without Brook. This year we are 3rd even WITH injuries and a large part of that is not only being back, but being available for all but 1 game this season. Brook is the clear focal point of our defense, everything funnels to him.

It's Brook erasing the back side that allows Giannis to run around and wreak havoc in help.

[81Zees]

Lakers had a terrible team before the ASG so this skews a lot but AD should be one of the favorites to win the DPOY. He provides great rim protection and switchablity. No one from a big man does a better job. This man had been overlooked multiple times throughout his careers and I hope to see him win the award at least once. I would take him over anyone for his position. Lopez has had an outstanding year as well!

[benhillboy]

I appreciate all the thoughtful analysis in this thread. In-depth Defensive topics tend to keep the casual fans and nonsense away lol.

Personally I think Jrue, Giannis, and Brook wash each other out for a DPOY award when they’re all on pace to play a majority of the season. All elite at their positions in terms of eye and metric tests. Definitely when you add in White Joe Ingles who’s super smart and can get outsized defensive production from lesser activity. Let alone Jae Crowder who’s fresh off the couch posting a 1.7 defensive box. When he gets into real shape come playoff time and back to his vintage ball denying there are gonna be some long a$$ scoring droughts versus them dudes.

A True DPOY is someone who is helping poor defenders stay on the floor. Draymond to Poole is top of mind lol (who’s minutes got cut in their latest win thank goodness)

[Dacost]

Jackson is Winning this which makes this pretty boring.

[JonFromVA]

I think the Bucks have strong candidates in Giannis and Brook, but the DPOY is Jrue.

fwiw, Jevon Carter is currently leading the Bucks in opponents offensive rating at 108.8.

The Bucks are tough with strong perimeter and interior defense and for some reason exploiting Brook's drop defense seems harder than it should be; but I expect that to be fully tested in the playoff.

[toooskies]

I think the Bucks have strong candidates in Giannis and Brook, but the DPOY is Jrue.

fwiw, Jevon Carter is currently leading the Bucks in opponents offensive rating at 108.8.

The Bucks are tough with strong perimeter and interior defense and for some reason exploiting Brook's drop defense seems harder than it should be; but I expect that to be fully tested in the playoff.

You'd think with three DPOY candidates in Giannis, Brook, and Jrue, as well at least one strong bench defender in Carter, they'd be #1 in the league in defense by far.

[JonFromVA]

Which reminds me...

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