NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Duke4life831]

Here is how I look at it at the moment.

Having legit MVP worthy seasons:
Tatum
KD
Embiid

and those three just happen to have the best three #2 options in the league?
what a glorious coincidence

honoable mention to Cleveland, there's an argument to make there (maybe)
but I don't see any other team whose #2 has been arguably bette this season than those 3, maybe i'm forgetting someone

do they enjoy the extra space etc of having a great number 1? ofc they do

Embiid is taking a ton of shots, getting to the line alot but his rebounds are down despite playing more mins (not even 10 a game for a dude his size who plays 35-36 mins is meh) and he has an AST\TO ration that's barely positive

yeah, he takes alot of shots and gets to the stripe and converts well from both
he thinks he'll get an MVP if he wins another scoring title i guess

Harden has played just 20 games but still, the Sixers are basically on pace for 50 wins

can u think of a dominant "legit" MVP big men in his prime, who would play beside one of the top 3 #2 options in the league
with Guys like Maxey, Harris and Melton at that and only win 50-ish games?

something doesn't add up

Embiid is having a great season, but unless MVP turned into the PPG award - I don't think he's having a legit MVP worthy season

he's not far but he's not there
(regardless of other guys that are better than him)

the league is stacked rn, that needs to be taken into account 50 wins is a mark harder to come by this year compared to an average season but still, gotta say i don't see it

I mean the trio of Embiid/Harden/Maxey have played I think only 6 games together so far, I think that is pretty significant when talking about overall record at the moment.

I also dont think having a legit #2 option should be viewed as some negative when it comes to the MVP. The vast majority of MVP winners have had elite #2 options. Do I think the fact that Jokic and Luka dont have elite #2 options and are putting up historical numbers makes a difference? Ya, but that is also why I have them in a different category than those 3.

Also Embiid is far more than just PPG this season. Embiid is top 5 in pretty much every advanced metric. And he's not just that high up because of his high volume scoring, we have seen plenty of high volume scorers with mediocre advanced metrics (Beal the couple years he was runner up to the scoring title).

Also if Philly ends up with just 50 wins, I dont think Embiid wins MVP. Like I said if Luka/Jokic die off or their teams dont get a good enough seed, I think it comes down to the other 3 guys and seeding will probably play a big factor because of how close they are playing.

[Exp0sed]

Here is how I look at it at the moment.

Having legit MVP worthy seasons:
Tatum
KD
Embiid

[/b]

/quote]


I also dont think having a legit #2 option should be viewed as some negative when it comes to the MVP. The vast majority of MVP winners have had elite #2 options. Do I think the fact that Jokic and Luka dont have elite #2 options and are putting up historical numbers makes a difference? Ya, but that is also why I have them in a different category than those 3.

Also if Philly ends up with just 50 wins, I dont think Embiid wins MVP. Like I said if Luka/Jokic die off or their teams dont get a good enough seed, I think it comes down to the other 3 guys and seeding will probably play a big factor because of how close they are playing.

I don't think having a legit 2nd option should be a negative, i do think it's very relevant to the win column tho

there's a differene between "legit" and elite
Harden, JB and Kyrie have been the best 2nd options in the league, that's a little more than legit

my main emphasis was on the fact that philly is on pace to win 50 and that doesn't add up, because Harden's season + Embiid's "legit MVP worthy seasons" should be a 50 win team even if surrounded by scrubs, that's nothing to write home about

and they are not, they have some real talent and depth around them

I love Maxey but it's not like having Melton and Milton soak up the difference is that dramatic
If u plug Maxey over Melton for all the games Maxey missed - I'd imagine they wouldn't be a top 2-3 defense
not to mention, Maxey hasn't been that impressive this season when playing alongside Embiid and Harden
his better stretch ame when they were short handed

10 games missed from Harden are far more substantial but most seasons ur stars are gonna miss some games

we'll have to see how they perform as a team the rest of the way

[eyeatoma]

Here is how I look at it at the moment.

Having legit MVP worthy seasons:
Tatum
KD
Embiid

On any given year if they continue to do what theyve been doing, I would have zero hesitation on any of these guys winning. They check off everything you want in a MVP. As much crap as I (and many give) eyeatoma, on any given season the points he makes about Embiid are all legit (he loses it when he starts saying advanced metrics are fads and stuff). Embiid is having a MVP worthy season. There is just one thing, the next category.

Having statistical anomaly seasons/dragging below average to bad rosters into contention:
Jokic
Luka

These guys numbers just dont make sense. They're legit putting up video game numbers. Also they dont have a supporting cast like they other guys have. The other 3 guys have deep teams and legit all star/all nba caliber #2 options. Jokic's #2 is Aaron Gordon and Luka's is Christian Wood. Yet Jokic has Denver tied for the 1st seed and Dallas is 2 games back from a top 3 seed.

For Jokic to win I think he needs to continue this level of play and get Denver that #1 seed (media narrative wise, I think this will be a huge selling point). For Luka to win I think he needs to continue his play and get a top 3 seed. If both of these guys cant do this, I think it really probably comes down to (assuming they all continue a similar level of play as of right now), who gets the #1 overall seed between BOS/PHI/NETS.

I just think its pretty pointless to try and point out negatives with these 5 guys. They're all elite and they're playing like it. Really wont take much for the dice to fall a certain way to open up their chance to win it.

This is basically all I've been saying.

Embiid having been runner up for the last 2 years, needs the #1 seed. If anyone get's the #1 seed they basically win it. Luka could get a top 3-4 seed as you said. Jokic needs the number one seed, but IMO needs to have some distance. Can't be like a half game up, although probably doesn't make a difference becasue the media love him so much.

It's quite close at the moment, and Embiid is definitely a candidate. Sixers need to make another run right now with a few teams faltering. Right now it seem s like it's Tatum's to lose. He has the record going for him, and is playing better than he ever has.

[Triple M]

yeah im sorry but I just don't get the argument for KD and Tatum.

The stats just aren't there when compared to the likes of someone like Doncic, and to bolster their argument simply because of team record does a disservice to Jaylen Brown and Kyrie Irving.

People will make weird arguments based off precedent or some ****, but first things first: you have to have the best stats. They don't have them. If people with better stats have a much worse team record then okay lets consider them, but that's not the case.

I think the case for Tatum has been his performances vs other stars and big time players, fwiw. He has consistently looked like the best player on the court vs. Anteokunpo's, Durant's, Embiid's, Jokic, etc but maybe that is too siplialsitic an approach. Personally i feel there is something there becauee he has been pretty consistent in doing it since last February with the exceptions being Luka and Curry. Yea, the Celtics have a better team but ilhe has had some huge performance in the process.

Right now the players with better stats so have much worse records so im confused about that remark. Only Jokic has a comparable record and he's the leading candidate.

[deneem4]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

[BoatsNZones]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

[Duke4life831]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

I think there are a few reasons Zion isnt talked about and included into that main group.

Ya BI has missed half the season but that doesnt mean he has a bad roster. That is an extremely deep quality team (6-2 when Zion doesnt play). But I think the main reason is because Zion has only played at a MVP level for his last 14 games.

Zion's first 12 games:
22/6/4 on 61 TS%

Zion's last 14 games:
29/8/5 on 68 TS%

If his entire season had been on the same level as his last 14 games, I think without a doubt he would be in the same group as guys like Tatum, KD, Embiid and so on. But again the season is only 2 months old and that switch to legit MVP level happened a full month into the season.

So I think if Zion keeps this level of play up and it becomes to be a much bigger sample size, instead of just a 50/50 split, then I think his name will be tossed in with those guys. Because we will see his advanced metrics and stuff like that also get a nice boost. Just doesnt have the sample size that the other guys have at the moment.

[deneem4]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

I think there are a few reasons Zion isnt talked about and included into that main group.

Ya BI has missed half the season but that doesnt mean he has a bad roster. That is an extremely deep quality team (6-2 when Zion doesnt play). But I think the main reason is because Zion has only played at a MVP level for his last 14 games.

Zion's first 12 games:
22/6/4 on 61 TS%

Zion's last 14 games:
29/8/5 on 68 TS%

If his entire season had been on the same level as his last 14 games, I think without a doubt he would be in the same group as guys like Tatum, KD, Embiid and so on. But again the season is only 2 months old and that switch to legit MVP level happened a full month into the season.

So I think if Zion keeps this level of play up and it becomes to be a much bigger sample size, instead of just a 50/50 split, then I think his name will be tossed in with those guys. Because we will see his advanced metrics and stuff like that also get a nice boost. Just doesnt have the sample size that the other guys have at the moment.

We’re talking about Zion, if there’s any player in the league that you should respect hes started slow he deserves it

And that Pelicans roster isn’t that good, especially considering bi is out

[deneem4]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

[Duke4life831]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

I think there are a few reasons Zion isnt talked about and included into that main group.

Ya BI has missed half the season but that doesnt mean he has a bad roster. That is an extremely deep quality team (6-2 when Zion doesnt play). But I think the main reason is because Zion has only played at a MVP level for his last 14 games.

Zion's first 12 games:
22/6/4 on 61 TS%

Zion's last 14 games:
29/8/5 on 68 TS%

If his entire season had been on the same level as his last 14 games, I think without a doubt he would be in the same group as guys like Tatum, KD, Embiid and so on. But again the season is only 2 months old and that switch to legit MVP level happened a full month into the season.

So I think if Zion keeps this level of play up and it becomes to be a much bigger sample size, instead of just a 50/50 split, then I think his name will be tossed in with those guys. Because we will see his advanced metrics and stuff like that also get a nice boost. Just doesnt have the sample size that the other guys have at the moment.

We’re talking about Zion, if there’s any player in the league that you should respect hes started slow he deserves it

And that Pelicans roster isn’t that good, especially considering bi is out

If we are talking about MVP respect, then no Zion hasnt earned any yet. Again we are talking for half of the season so far he hasnt played at a MVP level. While we have guys that have been playing lights out all season long. So ya that is enough of a difference so far into this season to keep him out from the same group as the top guys, its not all that crazy.

And no the Pels roster is actually pretty good. Hell its like every game the Pels broadcast teams likes to remind the audience that is the deepest roster in the league, and I dont think they're that far off when they say that. Are they a championship contender with BI out? No. But does that its a bad roster? No. Again they're 6-2 without Zion on the season so far, Zion's first 12 games werent bad, but they were nowhere close to MVP level either. That's why he isnt in the discussion at the moment.

Im also extremely bias because I would love to have 2 Duke guys who are legit MVP contenders. And I am pretty vocal on rooting for this Pels team for the last few years.

[Duke4life831]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

The only time people say stats are meaningless is when the stats arent in their favor. In no sport when it comes to the MVP conversation has the argument of "stats are meaningless" hold any kind of water. Stats are a huge aspect when it comes to the MVP race.

Also Zion demands more attention than any player in the league? Based off what? I get made fun of repeatedly on here because of how obvious my Duke bias is, but how are you going to make the argument that Zion demands more attention than guys like Jokic and Doncic? Jokic leads the league in touches, is close to averaging a 25ppg triple double on 70 TS%. The entire Nuggets offense revolves around Jokic. When he isnt on the court, that team falls apart. While the Mavs entire offense is built around Luka, I mean everything. Touches, shots, running the offense, facilitating and so on. He is the entire offense.

This is like Eyeatoma saying advanced stats are a fad that will go away, because they dont favor Embiid. Saying stats are meaningless automatically undercuts your argument from the beginning. And again this is coming from the Duke homer of this board haha.

[deneem4]

I think there are a few reasons Zion isnt talked about and included into that main group.

Ya BI has missed half the season but that doesnt mean he has a bad roster. That is an extremely deep quality team (6-2 when Zion doesnt play). But I think the main reason is because Zion has only played at a MVP level for his last 14 games.

Zion's first 12 games:
22/6/4 on 61 TS%

Zion's last 14 games:
29/8/5 on 68 TS%

If his entire season had been on the same level as his last 14 games, I think without a doubt he would be in the same group as guys like Tatum, KD, Embiid and so on. But again the season is only 2 months old and that switch to legit MVP level happened a full month into the season.

So I think if Zion keeps this level of play up and it becomes to be a much bigger sample size, instead of just a 50/50 split, then I think his name will be tossed in with those guys. Because we will see his advanced metrics and stuff like that also get a nice boost. Just doesnt have the sample size that the other guys have at the moment.

We’re talking about Zion, if there’s any player in the league that you should respect hes started slow he deserves it

And that Pelicans roster isn’t that good, especially considering bi is out

If we are talking about MVP respect, then no Zion hasnt earned any yet. Again we are talking for half of the season so far he hasnt played at a MVP level. While we have guys that have been playing lights out all season long. So ya that is enough of a difference so far into this season to keep him out from the same group as the top guys, its not all that crazy.

And no the Pels roster is actually pretty good. Hell its like every game the Pels broadcast teams likes to remind the audience that is the deepest roster in the league, and I dont think they're that far off when they say that. Are they a championship contender with BI out? No. But does that its a bad roster? No. Again they're 6-2 without Zion on the season so far, Zion's first 12 games werent bad, but they were nowhere close to MVP level either. That's why he isnt in the discussion at the moment.

Im also extremely bias because I would love to have 2 Duke guys who are legit MVP contenders. And I am pretty vocal on rooting for this Pels team for the last few years.

You keep mentioning first 12 games he missed the whole last season
Before this season you didn’t know the name of more than 5 Pelicans players, now they’re the deepest team in the league,
He just closed out a comeback by himself on both ends, and has the best record
Remind me again who from the Pelicans who you trade a top 5 player on your team for outside of Zion or bi?

[BoatsNZones]

How’s the player on the best team in the west(or 2nd) without his co star for the past month have gotten a team full of relatively nobodies not at the top of the mvp race, Cj McCollum and Jonas val is the only players who would probably start on other teams…
Somebody did the lineup comparison earlier in the thread, why wasn’t the Zion Pelicans included?

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

I have no idea what NBA you watch, but it's not the one I do, and your statement certainly can't be backed up by any stats, facts or eye test that includes the viewing of both teams on a regular basis.

[deneem4]

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

The only time people say stats are meaningless is when the stats arent in their favor. In no sport when it comes to the MVP conversation has the argument of "stats are meaningless" hold any kind of water. Stats are a huge aspect when it comes to the MVP race.

Also Zion demands more attention than any player in the league? Based off what? I get made fun of repeatedly on here because of how obvious my Duke bias is, but how are you going to make the argument that Zion demands more attention than guys like Jokic and Doncic? Jokic leads the league in touches, is close to averaging a 25ppg triple double on 70 TS%. The entire Nuggets offense revolves around Jokic. When he isnt on the court, that team falls apart. While the Mavs entire offense is built around Luka, I mean everything. Touches, shots, running the offense, facilitating and so on. He is the entire offense.

This is like Eyeatoma saying advanced stats are a fad that will go away, because they dont favor Embiid. Saying stats are meaningless automatically undercuts your argument from the beginning. And again this is coming from the Duke homer of this board haha.

Is record more important or stats more important for mvp?
You think the Pelicans are a better team than this season than everybody in the west? Or is Zion having a mvp impact?

[deneem4]

Doesn't rank top 10 in any advanced/PM metrics. Simply has nowhere near the impact of Jokic, who shares the same record where they certainly don't have an elite cast (albeit far better than last season). Glad to see him balling out though.

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

I have no idea what NBA you watch, but it's not the one I do, and your statement certainly can't be backed up by any stats, facts or eye test that includes the viewing of both teams on a regular basis.

It’s backed by the standings

[Duke4life831]

We’re talking about Zion, if there’s any player in the league that you should respect hes started slow he deserves it

And that Pelicans roster isn’t that good, especially considering bi is out

If we are talking about MVP respect, then no Zion hasnt earned any yet. Again we are talking for half of the season so far he hasnt played at a MVP level. While we have guys that have been playing lights out all season long. So ya that is enough of a difference so far into this season to keep him out from the same group as the top guys, its not all that crazy.

And no the Pels roster is actually pretty good. Hell its like every game the Pels broadcast teams likes to remind the audience that is the deepest roster in the league, and I dont think they're that far off when they say that. Are they a championship contender with BI out? No. But does that its a bad roster? No. Again they're 6-2 without Zion on the season so far, Zion's first 12 games werent bad, but they were nowhere close to MVP level either. That's why he isnt in the discussion at the moment.

Im also extremely bias because I would love to have 2 Duke guys who are legit MVP contenders. And I am pretty vocal on rooting for this Pels team for the last few years.

You keep mentioning first 12 games he missed the whole last season
Before this season you didn’t know the name of more than 5 Pelicans players, now they’re the deepest team in the league,
He just closed out a comeback by himself on both ends, and has the best record
Remind me again who from the Pelicans who you trade a top 5 player on your team for outside of Zion or bi?

That doesnt matter when you have guys putting up elite numbers from day 1 of the season. Zion doesnt get a pass for a slow start (relative to MVP standards) because he missed all of last year. Too bad.

Also what? Are you saying me specifically or in general? Because Im like one of the 2-3 active posters on the Pels board on here. I also think many people know how CJ is. Many people are huge fans of Jonas. Herb Jones was all rookie last year and lots of people thought he shouldve been all defense last year. Again yes they may not have 3 all stars on the team, but theyre a very deep quality team. What I mean by that is, essentially 1-10 in that rotation you are getting quality rotation players.

[Duke4life831]

Jokic cast is better than Zion even without Murray and bi…
Stats are meaningless when you’re winning, watch the games, Pelicans are winning because Zion demands more attention than any player in the league right now…he doesn’t need the ball to impact a game

The only time people say stats are meaningless is when the stats arent in their favor. In no sport when it comes to the MVP conversation has the argument of "stats are meaningless" hold any kind of water. Stats are a huge aspect when it comes to the MVP race.

Also Zion demands more attention than any player in the league? Based off what? I get made fun of repeatedly on here because of how obvious my Duke bias is, but how are you going to make the argument that Zion demands more attention than guys like Jokic and Doncic? Jokic leads the league in touches, is close to averaging a 25ppg triple double on 70 TS%. The entire Nuggets offense revolves around Jokic. When he isnt on the court, that team falls apart. While the Mavs entire offense is built around Luka, I mean everything. Touches, shots, running the offense, facilitating and so on. He is the entire offense.

This is like Eyeatoma saying advanced stats are a fad that will go away, because they dont favor Embiid. Saying stats are meaningless automatically undercuts your argument from the beginning. And again this is coming from the Duke homer of this board haha.

Is record more important or stats more important for mvp?
You think the Pelicans are a better team than this season than everybody in the west? Or is Zion having a mvp impact?

Dude its really not that complicated.

What's Zion's argument over Jokic? Teams have the same record, while Jokic has played in 5 more wins. Jokic also blows away Zion in essentially every single stat. What's Zion's argument over Tatum? Tatum has the better stats while being on a team that has the better record?

Again if the question is, "Is Zion playing at a MVP level the last month of the season?" My answer would be 100% yes. But the MVP race isnt just about the last month so far. If you ask me "Did Zion play at a MVP level for the 1st month of the season?" My answer would be no.

And when the season is only 2 months old so far, that basically takes him out of the running (again at the moment) because you have guys that the answer is 100% yes for both questions, instead of just one. That's the difference. Saying stats dont matter or trying to downplay the Pels roster are just dumb arguments.

[Bob8]

We’re talking about Zion, if there’s any player in the league that you should respect hes started slow he deserves it

And that Pelicans roster isn’t that good, especially considering bi is out

If we are talking about MVP respect, then no Zion hasnt earned any yet. Again we are talking for half of the season so far he hasnt played at a MVP level. While we have guys that have been playing lights out all season long. So ya that is enough of a difference so far into this season to keep him out from the same group as the top guys, its not all that crazy.

And no the Pels roster is actually pretty good. Hell its like every game the Pels broadcast teams likes to remind the audience that is the deepest roster in the league, and I dont think they're that far off when they say that. Are they a championship contender with BI out? No. But does that its a bad roster? No. Again they're 6-2 without Zion on the season so far, Zion's first 12 games werent bad, but they were nowhere close to MVP level either. That's why he isnt in the discussion at the moment.

Im also extremely bias because I would love to have 2 Duke guys who are legit MVP contenders. And I am pretty vocal on rooting for this Pels team for the last few years.

You keep mentioning first 12 games he missed the whole last season
Before this season you didn’t know the name of more than 5 Pelicans players, now they’re the deepest team in the league,
He just closed out a comeback by himself on both ends, and has the best record
Remind me again who from the Pelicans who you trade a top 5 player on your team for outside of Zion or bi?

Bad team can't be 6:2 without Zion and in most of those games Ingram didn't play too.

Zion is 16/10 in games he played, that is not better than any other MVP candidate.

[deneem4]

If we are talking about MVP respect, then no Zion hasnt earned any yet. Again we are talking for half of the season so far he hasnt played at a MVP level. While we have guys that have been playing lights out all season long. So ya that is enough of a difference so far into this season to keep him out from the same group as the top guys, its not all that crazy.

And no the Pels roster is actually pretty good. Hell its like every game the Pels broadcast teams likes to remind the audience that is the deepest roster in the league, and I dont think they're that far off when they say that. Are they a championship contender with BI out? No. But does that its a bad roster? No. Again they're 6-2 without Zion on the season so far, Zion's first 12 games werent bad, but they were nowhere close to MVP level either. That's why he isnt in the discussion at the moment.

Im also extremely bias because I would love to have 2 Duke guys who are legit MVP contenders. And I am pretty vocal on rooting for this Pels team for the last few years.

You keep mentioning first 12 games he missed the whole last season
Before this season you didn’t know the name of more than 5 Pelicans players, now they’re the deepest team in the league,
He just closed out a comeback by himself on both ends, and has the best record
Remind me again who from the Pelicans who you trade a top 5 player on your team for outside of Zion or bi?

That doesnt matter when you have guys putting up elite numbers from day 1 of the season. Zion doesnt get a pass for a slow start (relative to MVP standards) because he missed all of last year. Too bad.

Also what? Are you saying me specifically or in general? Because Im like one of the 2-3 active posters on the Pels board on here. I also think many people know how CJ is. Many people are huge fans of Jonas. Herb Jones was all rookie last year and lots of people thought he shouldve been all defense last year. Again yes they may not have 3 all stars on the team, but theyre a very deep quality team. What I mean by that is, essentially 1-10 in that rotation you are getting quality rotation players.

Herb has missed more games than zion
And he was 2nd team all rookie

[Duke4life831]

You keep mentioning first 12 games he missed the whole last season
Before this season you didn’t know the name of more than 5 Pelicans players, now they’re the deepest team in the league,
He just closed out a comeback by himself on both ends, and has the best record
Remind me again who from the Pelicans who you trade a top 5 player on your team for outside of Zion or bi?

That doesnt matter when you have guys putting up elite numbers from day 1 of the season. Zion doesnt get a pass for a slow start (relative to MVP standards) because he missed all of last year. Too bad.

Also what? Are you saying me specifically or in general? Because Im like one of the 2-3 active posters on the Pels board on here. I also think many people know how CJ is. Many people are huge fans of Jonas. Herb Jones was all rookie last year and lots of people thought he shouldve been all defense last year. Again yes they may not have 3 all stars on the team, but theyre a very deep quality team. What I mean by that is, essentially 1-10 in that rotation you are getting quality rotation players.

Herb has missed more games than zion
And he was 2nd team all rookie

Youre just proving my point about how deep this team is. Again trying to downplay the Pels roster to prop up Zion's MVP case is just a straight up bad and flawed argument.