2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[kazyv]

SGA is leading the one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status. Jokic is leading an incredibly mid supporting cast to 50+ wins. Don’t know how many reasonable person could disagree with those statements

Every other player anywhere close to the MVP conversation gets penalised for having good teammates.

only if he can't stand out vs his own teammates. SGA is having a way better year than any other player on the thunder.

[Mavrelous]

In the 2 successful PO runs Jokic had
In 2020
Murray +10
MPJ +14
Jokic -3

2023
MPJ +3.5
Murray +10
Gordon +20
Jokic +2

Anyone who wants to "use his brain", use it in this while throwing these guys under the bus.

[Mrakar]

In the 2 successful PO runs Jokic had
In 2020
Murray +10
MPJ +14
Jokic -3

2023
MPJ +3.5
Murray +10
Gordon +20
Jokic +2

Anyone who wants to "use his brain", use it in this while throwing these guys under the bus.

Im not sure if you are making stuff up bcs you dont have any other arguments, or your sources suck, but those number are absolutely not true.

[Mavrelous]

In the 2 successful PO runs Jokic had
In 2020
Murray +10
MPJ +14
Jokic -3

2023
MPJ +3.5
Murray +10
Gordon +20
Jokic +2

Anyone who wants to "use his brain", use it in this while throwing these guys under the bus.

Im not sure if you are making stuff up bcs you dont have any other arguments, or your sources suck, but those number are absolutely not true.

My source is an obscure site called basketball-reference.com, we are part of a conspiracy to make Jokic teammates look good.

[MoneyTalks41890]

No awards for anyone with good teammates

[Doranku]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

[-Luke-]

No awards for anyone with good teammates

Jordan Poole: "Sounds like a plan!"

[hardenASG13]

The stat probably ignores the fact that Murray or Aaron Gordon also missed some of the games that Jokic missed. You probably shouldn't count games your 2nd or 3rd best player missed as a reasonable expectation of how good the team is without its star player.

No, it's an On-Off stat. It's measured by the possession.

It's basically saying, like, the Nuggets are +10 with Jokic, which is the typical MOV for a 64 win team, and they are -10 without him, which is the MOV for a 17 win team.

It's not per game, it's per possession. It's just a way to contextualize what "+10" and "-10" actually look like, in terms that are more intuitively grasped by the average NBA fan.

It includes many minutes when Jokic played without his best teammates, as well as all the minutes that those teammates and Jokic both didn't play. It's not to be taken literally, because that 64 win team, in this scenario, would only exist if Jokic played every minute of every game all season, while his teammates continued to be banged up, injured, miss time, etc..

Dont even bother man, some guys dont want or dont know how to use their brain. It doesnt surprise me why there is so much "hot takes" around the league, since 85% of fanbase dont have a clue about basketball. And it is not knock on NBA fans, it should be like that since most of the fans are casual fans, its like that in other sports. Where i see the problem, is guys that come to forums and dont have a clue. If you invest time to write and read posts on forum, that means u care and u follow basketball a lot. How they still dont have a clue is beyond me...

No, I understand that. I just don't think it would translate to an 82 game season at all (making it kind of useless). Your understanding of advanced stats (and therefore basketball in general) must be so high! It's crazy Jokics teams have never beat a quality playoff team despite how his stats say he should (unless the stats are missing something.....like all the variances in how teams run their stuff, set rotations, and all the intangibles). Trust the stats and you are better than other fans!

[RRR3]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

These are the same people who will tell you with a straight face current Jokic is better than peak LeBron

[Special_Puppy]

In the 2 successful PO runs Jokic had
In 2020
Murray +10
MPJ +14
Jokic -3

2023
MPJ +3.5
Murray +10
Gordon +20
Jokic +2

Anyone who wants to "use his brain", use it in this while throwing these guys under the bus.

Don’t know how that disputes the idea that Jokic has an incredibly mid supporting cast this year. Something I’m not sure many people dispute

[Special_Puppy]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

I think it’s an undeniable that SGA has one of the best supporting casts in the league and that attempts to downplay that supporting cast are pretty silly (also doesn’t inherently hurt SGA’s MVP case since elevating one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status is what you are supposed to do)

[RB34]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

The Ol’ LeBron treatment, I see what you did there.

[Mavrelous]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

I think it’s an undeniable that SGA has one of the best supporting casts in the league and that attempts to downplay that supporting cast are pretty silly (also doesn’t inherently hurt SGA’s MVP case since elevating one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status is what you are supposed to do)

OKC has -5 net rating when SGA is off the court, Denver has -8 when Jokic, this difference explains 14.5 wins difference?

[ReggiesKnicks]

In the 2 successful PO runs Jokic had
In 2020
Murray +10
MPJ +14
Jokic -3

2023
MPJ +3.5
Murray +10
Gordon +20
Jokic +2

Anyone who wants to "use his brain", use it in this while throwing these guys under the bus.

Im not sure if you are making stuff up bcs you dont have any other arguments, or your sources suck, but those number are absolutely not true.

These numbers are the On/Off of each player on the Nuggets in the post-season.

[Special_Puppy]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

I think it’s an undeniable that SGA has one of the best supporting casts in the league and that attempts to downplay that supporting cast are pretty silly (also doesn’t inherently hurt SGA’s MVP case since elevating one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status is what you are supposed to do)

OKC has -5 net rating when SGA is off the court, Denver has -8 when Jokic, this difference explains 14.5 wins difference?

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from. Its a +7 net rating when SGA is off the court vs a -9 net rating when Jokic is off the court. You shouldn't take these numbers literally, but it is emblematic of the undeniable truth that SGA's supporting cast has been orders of magnitude better than Jokic's this season which is why the advanced stats between the two is so close when the team record difference is so large

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1628983&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[ReggiesKnicks]

Y'all really grasping at straws now. First time all-star JDub, less than half a season of 22 year old Chet, and a bunch of roleplayers got you guys acting like OKC is the 2017 Warriors...

I think it’s an undeniable that SGA has one of the best supporting casts in the league and that attempts to downplay that supporting cast are pretty silly (also doesn’t inherently hurt SGA’s MVP case since elevating one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status is what you are supposed to do)

The OKC Thunder are one of the deepest teams in the NBA. They are the deepest team in the NBA. The modern NBA is all about minimizing minutes of negative impact players, as offenses and defense both require a high level of sophistication. OKC has abundant talent on their roster and some of the highest per-minute impact players in the NBA (Hartenstein, Chet, Dort, and Caruso are excellent players who are best in shorter spurts).

There is no doubt the OKC team is deeper and more talented than the Denver squad, all things considered. OKC has 11 players with > 600 minutes, all with a positive VORP. Denver has 8 players with > 600 minutes, 7 having a positive VORP.

The even starker difference is BPM. Denver has 2 players with a positive BPM outside of Jokic (Jokic, Murray and Gordon). OKC has 11, with 7 of them clearing 1.0 BPM.

When we dig deeper, OKC's entire blueprint is predicated on SGA. JDub is a limited player who craters when he isn't on the floor with SGA. He masquerades as a 2nd option due to the sole fact of SGA being Michael Jordan levels of offensive thumbprint on an offense.

This is where I draw the All-Time comparison and parallel. This team is the equivalent of the 1991 Jordan Bulls. Jordan at his Apex, SGA at his Apex. Young players are stepping into roles but not at their peaks. Phil and Mark are both younger coaches who have identified a blueprint to maximize a talented roster and put their MVP in a position to succeed.

[Mavrelous]

I think it’s an undeniable that SGA has one of the best supporting casts in the league and that attempts to downplay that supporting cast are pretty silly (also doesn’t inherently hurt SGA’s MVP case since elevating one of the best supporting casts in the league to ATG status is what you are supposed to do)

OKC has -5 net rating when SGA is off the court, Denver has -8 when Jokic, this difference explains 14.5 wins difference?

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from. Its a +7 net rating when SGA is off the court vs a -9 net rating when Jokic is off the court. You shouldn't take these numbers literally, but it is emblematic of the undeniable truth that SGA's supporting cast has been orders of magnitude better than Jokic's this season which is why the advanced stats between the two is so close when the team record difference is so large

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1628983&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

That's interesting, I didn't go to PBP, I simply substracted netrating (12) from on/off (17).

[Special_Puppy]

OKC has -5 net rating when SGA is off the court, Denver has -8 when Jokic, this difference explains 14.5 wins difference?

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from. Its a +7 net rating when SGA is off the court vs a -9 net rating when Jokic is off the court. You shouldn't take these numbers literally, but it is emblematic of the undeniable truth that SGA's supporting cast has been orders of magnitude better than Jokic's this season which is why the advanced stats between the two is so close when the team record difference is so large

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1628983&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

That's interesting, I didn't go to PBP, I simply substracted netrating (12) from on/off (17).

You got the numbers mixed up in your head I think. Its a net rating of 17 vs an on/off of 12. It happens

[ReggiesKnicks]

OKC has -5 net rating when SGA is off the court, Denver has -8 when Jokic, this difference explains 14.5 wins difference?

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from. Its a +7 net rating when SGA is off the court vs a -9 net rating when Jokic is off the court. You shouldn't take these numbers literally, but it is emblematic of the undeniable truth that SGA's supporting cast has been orders of magnitude better than Jokic's this season which is why the advanced stats between the two is so close when the team record difference is so large

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1628983&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

That's interesting, I didn't go to PBP, I simply substracted netrating (12) from on/off (17).

It's basically the same. 17-12 is 5, but you wrote -5?

Net-Rtg: +17
On/Off: +12

17 - 12 = 5

[Cubbies2120]

I'm not sure the 2023 Playoffs, where Jokic became the first to lead the playoffs in Pts, Reb, Ast, while averaging a 30 point triple double, while facing 3 perennial DPOY candidates (AD, Bam, Gobert) and finishing the finals with 30/14/7 AVERAGE is the one we should be arguing against Jokic ..