2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[zippy]

Derozan...

[BatumtheGlue]

Chris Paul can keep dreaming of getting MVP or a ring.

[Triples333]

Curry has got to be in the conversation. Another great performance by him tonight as Golden State improves to 9-2.

While I agree I think neither Curry nor Durant has a shot at the MVP. They will partially cannibalize each others chances but also last season's success will make it hard for both guys to win.

They can get up there but neither will likely win. Have to remember that if not for the improbable meteoric rise of D Rose in leading the Bulls to the #1 seed over the Heat in 2010, Bron was right up there as an MVP favorite (think he finished with the 2nd most 1st place votes and slightly behind Howard overall). That was with an admission that he was "giving up on the MVP award" and the narrative of the year being that this was in fact the case (with a drop in both his numbers and overałl efficiency that year mind you). I think what would have to happen for one of Curry/KD to win is A) they would have to have by far the best record and B) one would have to be at least a noticeable positive impact over the other (be it via missed time to one or just outright being the best in the court).

Curry has been the best on the team since the first 3 games or so, but I expect them to be incredibly similar in their impact over the season.

[Pnjguy]

Jimmy Butler says hello.

[INKtastic]

Saying Bron can simply win MVP if he puts forth any effort seems both disrespectful of the other candidates and ignorant of what level of production Lebron is capable of putting forth for an entire season. As it stands, he would have to be putting forth THE best regular season of his career to compete with the current production level of CP3/Harden. It's not a matter of him snapping his fingers and BOOM everyone else is playing for 2nd.

Did you miss when he just snapped his fingers and went BOOM in the NBA finals with the unanimous MVP on the other team? And after last night, since his return, the Cavs are 4-15 in games he doesn't play, which reinforces just how valuable he is. And LeBron has had 3 complete seasons that were more efficient than Paul and 4 complete seasons that were more efficient than Harden. It remains to be seen if either guy can sustain their current level of efficiency for an entire season as both are a massive jump vs their prior complete season.

Again another person not distinguishing between the reg season grind and the end of the playoffs. Also please understand that other than most, I consider him being the only player on his team opting for rest on their tough road b2b game (hint: these are generally the games he sits... i.e. The toughest ones to win) a big negative towards an MVP campaign. Proving your worth by not showing up doesn't do it for me.

LeBron lost the MVP to Steven Nash one year for this very reason. Except in that case the writers/voters who used the Suns record without Nash got the record completely wrong. Then Nash won it again the next season for having a better season than his first year, never mind that LeBron was vastly better both years.

[Triples333]

Jimmy Butler says hello.

Jimmy's crashing through the side wall like the Kool-Aid man in this debate. He's been fantastic.

@INK, not sure I recall that being the narrative for Nash. I saw it more as him being the Maestro of one of the finest NBA orchestras we had seen to that point. Bron has not been particularly incredible this year relative to the other apex predators or himself. Obviously he is a perennial candidate and still considered the best in the game by most, but other than his assist totals being higher than normal and having a great on/off (certainly not the best), he's been par for the course. Hell they aren't even the best team in the conference right now, that distinction goes to Atlanta (who beat them in their house).

[The411]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

[Triples333]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

Yeah, it's pretty asinine to have him at the top. Certainly has not earned that spot.

[ThePersianFreak]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

[Triples333]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

He wasn't top 2 in either of the past 2 years and this would go down as his 4th in a row without winning. As is, I highly doubt he would finish top 2. He will have to be better.

Ignoring stats = ignoring facts = ignoring reality.

[The411]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

No he's not ... just as a FYI last ten MVPs

15/16 Curry 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
14/15 Curry 3rd PER, 3rd WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
13/14 Durant 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
12/13 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
11/12 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
10/11 Rose 9th PER, 5th WS, 11th WS/48, 3rd VORP
09/10 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
08/09 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
07/08 Bryant 8th PER,4th WS, 8th WS/48,3rd VORP
06/07 Dirk 2nd PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 3rd VORP

Both Rose's MVP and Bryant's have been highly disputed.

[MisterHibachi]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

No he's not ... just as a FYI last ten MVPs

15/16 Curry 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
14/15 Curry 3rd PER, 3rd WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
13/14 Durant 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
12/13 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
11/12 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
10/11 Rose 9th PER, 5th WS, 11th WS/48, 3rd VORP
09/10 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
08/09 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
07/08 Bryant 8th PER,4th WS, 8th WS/48,3rd VORP
06/07 Dirk 2nd PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 3rd VORP

Both Rose's MVP and Bryant's have been highly disputed.

Correlation =/ causation. MVP winners are usually tops in these stats, but I'm pretty sure voters aren't actually ranking their ballot by looking at who is number 1 in VORP or BPM or some such. It's a combination of narrative, traditional stats, "advanced" stats, and wins.

[Rapcity_11]

Did you miss when he just snapped his fingers and went BOOM in the NBA finals with the unanimous MVP on the other team? And after last night, since his return, the Cavs are 4-15 in games he doesn't play, which reinforces just how valuable he is. And LeBron has had 3 complete seasons that were more efficient than Paul and 4 complete seasons that were more efficient than Harden. It remains to be seen if either guy can sustain their current level of efficiency for an entire season as both are a massive jump vs their prior complete season.

Again another person not distinguishing between the reg season grind and the end of the playoffs. Also please understand that other than most, I consider him being the only player on his team opting for rest on their tough road b2b game (hint: these are generally the games he sits... i.e. The toughest ones to win) a big negative towards an MVP campaign. Proving your worth by not showing up doesn't do it for me.

LeBron lost the MVP to Steven Nash one year for this very reason. Except in that case the writers/voters who used the Suns record without Nash got the record completely wrong. Then Nash won it again the next season for having a better season than his first year, never mind that LeBron was vastly better both years.

Lebron wasn't even in the discussion in 2005. It was all Nash vs. Shaq. Plus, 2nd year Lebron was definitely not "vastly better". What a terrible take.

[Mr Puddles]

Jimmy Butler says hello.

Hello there Jimmy!

Quick question buddy: who would you say is MVP front runner as of right now, Chris Paul or James Harden?

[deezerweeze]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

No he's not ... just as a FYI last ten MVPs

15/16 Curry 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
14/15 Curry 3rd PER, 3rd WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
13/14 Durant 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
12/13 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
11/12 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
10/11 Rose 9th PER, 5th WS, 11th WS/48, 3rd VORP
09/10 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
08/09 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
07/08 Bryant 8th PER,4th WS, 8th WS/48,3rd VORP
06/07 Dirk 2nd PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 3rd VORP

Both Rose's MVP and Bryant's have been highly disputed.

Bryant's MVP is only disputed by ignorant morons. His +/- impact stats absolutely obliterate CP3's.

Kobe: +6.1
Paul : +3.0

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm

It's not even remotely close.

And he anchored Lakers team that was much stronger (7.4 SRS to Hornets 5.4, a 32%! gap) and won 58 games/#1 seed despite having a supporting cast that was clearly worse once you consider injuries...the Hornets were the healthiest team in the league while the Lakers were the most injury riddled team in basketball/had most most missed games (Bynum played in only 35 games, Pau only played in 27, Odom missed 5, Radmonovic missed 17, etc)

Kobe was extremely well deserving of that MVP and that was the overwhelming consensus back then. Only morons think that was just some sort of "lifetime achievement award".

[Zeitgeister]

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

No he's not ... just as a FYI last ten MVPs

15/16 Curry 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
14/15 Curry 3rd PER, 3rd WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
13/14 Durant 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
12/13 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
11/12 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
10/11 Rose 9th PER, 5th WS, 11th WS/48, 3rd VORP
09/10 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
08/09 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
07/08 Bryant 8th PER,4th WS, 8th WS/48,3rd VORP
06/07 Dirk 2nd PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 3rd VORP

Both Rose's MVP and Bryant's have been highly disputed.

Bryant's MVP is only disputed by ignorant morons. His +/- impact stats absolutely obliterate CP3's.

Kobe: +6.1
Paul : +3.0

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm

It's not even remotely close.

And he anchored Lakers team that was much stronger (7.4 SRS to Hornets 5.4, a 32%! gap) and won 58 games/#1 seed despite having a supporting cast that was clearly worse once you consider injuries...the Hornets were the healthiest team in the league while the Lakers were the most injury riddled team in basketball/had most most missed games (Bynum played in only 35 games, Pau only played in 27, Odom missed 5, Radmonovic missed 17, etc)

Kobe was extremely well deserving of that MVP and that was the overwhelming consensus back then. Only morons think that was just some sort of "lifetime achievement award".

I noticed Kevin Garnett is #1 in RAPM in 2008, and way higher than Kobe and anyone else, on that list.

SRS
Boston: 9.30
Lakers: 7.34

Maybe Garnett should have won it.

[deezerweeze]

No he's not ... just as a FYI last ten MVPs

15/16 Curry 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
14/15 Curry 3rd PER, 3rd WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
13/14 Durant 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
12/13 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
11/12 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
10/11 Rose 9th PER, 5th WS, 11th WS/48, 3rd VORP
09/10 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
08/09 James 1st PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 1st VORP
07/08 Bryant 8th PER,4th WS, 8th WS/48,3rd VORP
06/07 Dirk 2nd PER, 1st WS, 1st WS/48, 3rd VORP

Both Rose's MVP and Bryant's have been highly disputed.

Bryant's MVP is only disputed by ignorant morons. His +/- impact stats absolutely obliterate CP3's.

Kobe: +6.1
Paul : +3.0

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm

It's not even remotely close.

And he anchored Lakers team that was much stronger (7.4 SRS to Hornets 5.4, a 32%! gap) and won 58 games/#1 seed despite having a supporting cast that was clearly worse once you consider injuries...the Hornets were the healthiest team in the league while the Lakers were the most injury riddled team in basketball/had most most missed games (Bynum played in only 35 games, Pau only played in 27, Odom missed 5, Radmonovic missed 17, etc)

Kobe was extremely well deserving of that MVP and that was the overwhelming consensus back then. Only morons think that was just some sort of "lifetime achievement award".

I noticed Kevin Garnett is #1 in RAPM in 2008, and way higher than Kobe and anyone else, on that list.

SRS
Boston: 9.30
Lakers: 7.34

Maybe Garnett should have won it.

Well he only played 33 MPG to Kobe's 39 MPG. Pretty huge gap. You have to look at the minutes with the +/- stats.

Also he missed 11 games while Kobe played all 82. In those 11 games without him the Celtics went 9-2 with a 7+ SRS. Pretty telling.

Still...I wouldn't have had much of a problem with KG winning it. He would have been more deserving than CP3 imo.

The point was that is that was absolutely not some "lifetime achievement award" for Bryant. His impact was astronomical.

[Rastas]

Jimmy Butler says hello.

Hello there Jimmy!

Quick question buddy: who would you say is MVP front runner as of right now, Chris Paul or James Harden?

Jimmy - Probably that Dude who has humiliated my team for the last decade - you know that guy averaging a near triple double!

[ThePersianFreak]

Lebron is 13th in PER, 15th in WS 13th in WS/48 and 8th in VORP ... he's not a candidate right now.

1. CP3
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kawhi
4. RWB
5. Derozan
6. Durant
7. Curry


Harden is out due to 9th in the West.

You can look at all the stats you like, in the eyes of voters LeBron is a top 2 candidate right now.

He wasn't top 2 in either of the past 2 years and this would go down as his 4th in a row without winning. As is, I highly doubt he would finish top 2. He will have to be better.

Ignoring stats = ignoring facts = ignoring reality.

He wasn't a top 2 candidate the past 2 years. This year? He is. The narrative has changed compared to past two seasons.

[gocelts34]

I don't know how his advanced stats look in comparison to the other guys, but I love what James Harden is doing. If Houston can maintain a 4-5 seed in the West all season long and he's averaging 30+ and 10+ apg I think he deserves to be heavily involved in the discussion