Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[downtownpie]

Last year it was Jazz fans now its Mavs fans. Simmons can attract them.

[Mirotic12]

Doncic should definitely be better.

[Ayt]

Last year it was Jazz fans now its Mavs fans. Simmons can attract them.

OP isn't a Mavs fan and obviously not all of the people who voted for Luka are Mavs fans.

[nurseryc]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

Simmons is better than Doncic at everything other than shooting beyond the keyway. Simmons has DPOY potential on the defensive end and is already elite, Doncic in comparison in a polite way does not have that potential and is a limited defensive player

This is nonsense. Luka's scoring is overall much better. His ability to shoot and his vision makes him better floor general, real point guard in playoff games, can read defenses, not a fake PG in a dunker's spot. Ben relies on athleticism and is less skilled overall, which makes him a liability in playoff games and in crunch time. Ben is the better defender and rebounder.

Disagree with most of your post. Ben has better vision, better passer, better defender, more athletic, quicker. Take Luka’s Shooting away and this is a joke comparison.

[reflex35]

Simmons is better than Doncic at everything other than shooting beyond the keyway. Simmons has DPOY potential on the defensive end and is already elite, Doncic in comparison in a polite way does not have that potential and is a limited defensive player

This is nonsense. Luka's scoring is overall much better. His ability to shoot and his vision makes him better floor general, real point guard in playoff games, can read defenses, not a fake PG in a dunker's spot. Ben relies on athleticism and is less skilled overall, which makes him a liability in playoff games and in crunch time. Ben is the better defender and rebounder.

Disagree with most of your post. Ben has better vision, better passer, better defender, more athletic, quicker. Take Luka’s Shooting away and this is a joke comparison.

You might be right about most of what you said, but let's not start "take away something discussion". We comparing players as they are at the moment. Secondly we are talking about fit. I am on a side that thinks Luka and Embiid would work better than with Ben.
Thirdly it might be narrative it might recency bias or it might be craziness but most GMs at this particular moment would take Luka over Ben.

[reflex35]

This is nonsense. Luka's scoring is overall much better. His ability to shoot and his vision makes him better floor general, real point guard in playoff games, can read defenses, not a fake PG in a dunker's spot. Ben relies on athleticism and is less skilled overall, which makes him a liability in playoff games and in crunch time. Ben is the better defender and rebounder.

Disagree with most of your post. Ben has better vision, better passer, better defender, more athletic, quicker. Take Luka’s Shooting away and this is a joke comparison.

You might be right about most of what you said, but let's not start "take away something discussion". We comparing players as they are at the moment. Secondly we are talking about fit. I am on a side that thinks Luka and Embiid would work better than with Ben.
Thirdly it might be narrative it might recency bias or it might be craziness but most GMs at this particular moment would take Luka over Ben.

And Luka might be a golden boy and overrated a bit everywhere, but Simmons should look at the mirror. He has done nothing and did not improve at all during his third season. The season prior everyone was talking how Ben will "become" the next Lebron or Magic. He had his share of praises but failed to improve and capitalise on them. While Luka at the same time had a historic rookie season.

So it might be recency bias and it does not tell anything about long term outlook but if Sixers could swap Ben with Luka they would to that instantly.

[leolozon]

Simmons is better than Doncic at everything other than shooting beyond the keyway. Simmons has DPOY potential on the defensive end and is already elite, Doncic in comparison in a polite way does not have that potential and is a limited defensive player

This is nonsense. Luka's scoring is overall much better. His ability to shoot and his vision makes him better floor general, real point guard in playoff games, can read defenses, not a fake PG in a dunker's spot. Ben relies on athleticism and is less skilled overall, which makes him a liability in playoff games and in crunch time. Ben is the better defender and rebounder.

Disagree with most of your post. Ben has better vision, better passer, better defender, more athletic, quicker. Take Luka’s Shooting away and this is a joke comparison.

Take Simmons’ defense/athleticism away and this is a joke comparison...

Funny that you doubled things just to make it seem like Simmons is that much better : vision and passing, more athletic and quicker. Athleticism isn’t a plus in a basketball sense, it’s what it SHOULD allow you to do that is a plus. But in some case (Wiggins and countless exemples), it means nothing. In Simmons’ case, athleticism means better defense and good efficiency by being able to get to the rim. No need to say the reason and the result, the result is what counts.

So yeah, better defense and better passer, but passer is actually really close and I’m not even sure Simmons really has an edge. I read in an article that Doncic was top 5 in the league in making passes with the better expected eFG % (with Harden, Rubio, Trae and I can’t remember who, but not Simmons). Plus Doncic had worst teammates which doesn’t help assist numbers and he actually wasn’t given the key to the offense at the beginning of the year.

And like I Already said, while I don’t think Doncic was better than Simmons last year, I’m taking the logical guess that Doncic is going to be better in his 2nd year.

[Pg81]

Simmons is better than Doncic at everything other than shooting beyond the keyway. Simmons has DPOY potential on the defensive end and is already elite, Doncic in comparison in a polite way does not have that potential and is a limited defensive player

This is nonsense. Luka's scoring is overall much better. His ability to shoot and his vision makes him better floor general, real point guard in playoff games, can read defenses, not a fake PG in a dunker's spot. Ben relies on athleticism and is less skilled overall, which makes him a liability in playoff games and in crunch time. Ben is the better defender and rebounder.

Disagree with most of your post. Ben has better vision, better passer, better defender, more athletic, quicker. Take Luka’s Shooting away and this is a joke comparison.

Apart from the fact that Simmons is 2-3 years older I have seen nothing of him that would suggest to me that his vision or passing is better than Doncics. Even if it is, experience can easily bridge a minor gap. Shooting is a tremendous skill, in fact a vital skill these days for anyone, with very few exceptions like Giannis, yet Simmons cannot hit from beyond 1-2 feet. Shooting needs a lot of time to perfect so the insinuation that it is "just" that really disingenuous. Doncic is already well on his way to be an all time great shooter while Simmons has yet to hit a shot from beyond the arc. This massive weakness is easily exploitable, far more so than Luka's trouble in terms of man to man defense which can be compensated for with a proper defensive scheme and team mates. Nothing can compensate for Simmons not hitting anything wide open from beyond 2-3 feet.

[Asif16]

Last year it was Jazz fans now its Mavs fans. Simmons can attract them.

Personally If I had to choose between Mitchell and Simmons...I would still choose Donovan Mitchell.

[PhillyPhilly]

The only thing Luka does better right now is shoot. Everything else Ben is better imo and with Ben's shot looking much better this offseason it's gonna be interesting to see how he plays next season.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Simmons does have a higher ceiling but if I was betting I would put my money on Luka all day long.
It is just more believable.
If he improves his 3pt percentage a bit (a few points - and he just need not to take stupid shots at the end of the clock-time) that will add another 2-4 points to his points per game and you have a 25 pts, 6 assist, 8 reb guy... Without changing anything...
How many of those guys are in NBA? We are talking ALL-NBA with those stats.
We all always think and compare these guys to elite of the elite.
But the reality is that even if Luka improves a tiny bit he will be an Allstar minimum.
Simmons has a higher ceiling but I doubt that he can become a good shooter in a year or two. Therefore he will be limited until that time comes or if it will ever come.
NEXT YEAR LUKA FOR SURE.

I see no reason to believe that Simmons has a higher ceiling than Luka.

Actually, for both of them the ceiling is perennial MVP candidate.
Just Luka's path looks more realistic to me, as he would need to improve on things he's already doing and let his body mature. Ben needs either a reliable jumper or to become a much better creator off the dribble, to have the half court offence impact needed to make noise.

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

If Luka had been the athlete Ben him we would have compared him to LeBron and discussed if he's going to be the goat.

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

While athletic ability doesn't predicate whether you will be a good or great player, however, it is an additional tool a player can utlized as said player fulfills their potential. The same applies for physical attributes like wing span, height etc. There is a reason why people say if Isiah Thomas with his tenacity, ball handling, speed etc. could have been the greatest player if he was 6'6, because it matters.

If you look at the greatest players of all time, there are plenty players who were great on one end of the floor, and those players are seemingly the lesser athletic players, whereas you see the two-way greats, they are usually more physically gifted and that's because they have a greater edge and more tools to utilize to their advantage.

That said, I voted Doncic, because his fundamentals are so advanced for his age, that he is more likely to make a bigger jump next season than Simmons. It doesn't mean that Simmons can't ultimately have a better overall career, because Simmons could make minor improvements over the years, and Doncic could plateu earlier, you just never know. I've said in other threads, I'm not convinced that Doncic will have the best career in his own draft class, but that's another discussion all together.

I think this is true the moment you have a guy who's size is going to limit his impact on defense, making him a real negative.
Doncic is a "Bird-ish" athlete, strong enough to defend 3s and some 4s, to make himself felt on help and and able to box out and secure the defensive rebound. As long as they have the attitude, these kind of players have the IQ to be positive defenders, even without the foot speed to stay in front of speedy dribblers or to recover and contest threes.
If he can develop in one of the top3 offensive players in the league that's enough to be a multiple MVP winner.
I see this scenario much more realistic than an athletic guy to develop a skill from nothing.
Then, there are the super athletes who ALSO are super skilled and with super high IQ (LeBron). But those are called goat candidates, and it's not a path I see Ben following.

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

I voted for Doncic, but you're statement about Doncic being able to do everything Simmons can do, plus shoot is incorrect. Simmons is far and away the better defender, it's not remotely close.

Rebounding and passing is not remotely close either

Dallas tanked last year and will probably miss the playoffs this year

Wouldn’t happen with Simmons

Not sure about this one, if anything they excel at different kind of passes. Ben is fantastic in transition, but Luka can create in the halfcourt in ways Ben probably never will.

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[Johnny Firpo]

I don't really understand why people bring up passing and rebounding as a huge advantage for Simmons when it's very clear that Doncic will be elite at both during his career. He averaged 8.7 and 7.6 PER36 in his freakin' rookie year, during which he was, what, 2.5 years younger than Simmons in his? Doncic projects to average 8 rebounds and 8 assists next year, in his second season. How is Simmons clearly better in those two categories? I also watched both a lot, and I'm reasonably sure that Doncic is a more gifted passer, and will be one for their career. He can do any pass Simmons can, and then some. And please don't get me wrong, I am very high on Ben, I think he could be an MVP candidate if he learns to shoot, but I think Doncic is an even better prospect, and had the same opinion before we drafted him.

[leolozon]

The only thing Luka does better right now is shoot. Everything else Ben is better imo and with Ben's shot looking much better this offseason it's gonna be interesting to see how he plays next season.

Who knew that handle, change of directions, craftiness, getting to the line, clutchness, etc. weren’t part of basketball.
Luka is better on offense, Ben is better on defense. The case for Ben is that his edge on defense is bigger, not that he’s better at everything but shooting, something that’s clearly false.

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[Pumpkin17]

Doncic is better ar passing in half court sets, Ben in transition. Doncic is better at handling pressure and late game play in general despite being younger. Doncic is actually able to shoot. All these three things are what you need in the playoffs from a perimeter player and what separes an all star from a possible alpha on a championship team

[Oscar9992]

LOL

[reflex35]

This discussion has a clear winner at the moment.
Ben should read this and see and get angry a bit and start improving his game. Luka is like in a different universe compared to him.

[The-Power]

looking forward to bumping this thread by the end of the next season after ben's a consensus top 10 player in the league while luka goes through his sophomore slump

That bump is unlikely to happen.