pingpongrac wrote:
Who are the 15-20 players that are "flat-out better" than Siakam? If you're strictly talking about offence, maybe I can see that case, but there are a handful of one-way players that aren't clearly better than Siakam (Trae and DeRozan stick out, maybe Kyrie and Mitchell) because he is very good on both ends of the floor. I don't know of ~20 players in the league that can put up 22/8/5 on decent efficiency while being very good defenders. Siakam has absolutely been a top 20 player this season. If he didn't miss the first month and take a few weeks to get up to speed after shoulder surgery, his numbers – especially impact numbers like VORP, EPM, LEBRON and RAPTOR which were tanked by that start – his numbers would have looked a lot better too. He averaged 24/9/6 on 57 TS% with a +9 on/off rating in his last ~50 games.
Yes, Harden and Embiid have the "playoff choker" label because they have flamed out early multiple times as #1 options and they have never actually WON a Championship. Siakam and FVV had a really bad offensive series against the Celtics in which they were both kind of #2 type options along with Lowry (all three attempted 16-19 FGA). That's not a whole lot to go off of, especially considering it was a single series in the bubble – the same bubble in which your Bucks were badly outplayed by Miami because their role players went off and Butler outplayed Giannis.
It's ridiculous to discredit what Siakam and FVV contributed to Toronto's title. Siakam averaged 19/7/3 throughout the playoffs – and 20/8/4 in the Finals – while being the clear #2 option. FVV struggled at times (mostly in the Philly series due to their length), but he averaged 25 MPG throughout the playoffs and came to life in the most important games (12 PPG on 62 TS% in the ECF+Finals) while making life difficult for Curry – who did a lot of his damage against Green, which forced Nurse to make adjustments throughout the game/series.
First of all Trae is ABSOLUTELY a better player than Siakam. As for 15 off the top of my head?
Giannis, Tatum, Doncic, Embiid, Jokic, Lebron, Curry, Butler, Gobert, Durant, Harden, Booker, Paul, Young, Mitchell, Ja, Holiday, Bam, Davis, Towns. Then you've got the Beal, Miiddleton's, Derozans, etc. that also have cases.
This is the thing about rating players. Offense and Defense are not created equal in this league. Great offensive players are plentiful and impactful. Truly great defenders are few and far between and unless you're a big, your overall impact on the defensive end is mitigated by role. We're not saying, good offense is one point, good defense is another point here and making them equal. A player, Trae for example, is a better player because he's special on offense and that outweighs the negative contributions on the other end. Siakam's contributions on both ends don't add up to the one for Trae.
Harden has made the 2nd round 3 times and conference finals twice. In the three times he lost in the 1st round, he was an 8 seed twice, and 4 seed once. I hardly qualify those as "early flameouts." In fact, use of the term is click baity and hot take as hell, but I guess that's what the sports media likes so people are following suit. Like I said earlier whether it was in response to you or someone else, there's a lot of area to cover in between a championship and the lottery. There can only be one championship team each year, that does NOT mean everyone else is terrible, an utter failure, trash, choker, blah blah blah.
You can't sit there and tell me the bubble isn't a lot to go off of when FVV and Siakam have one playoff run to offset it. A playoff run in which no Toronto fan wanted to see FVV touch the court until he pulled a rando rabbit out of the hat against Milwaukee. To be frank, I think two playoff series in which they have relevant and increased offensive roles is more applicable than feeding as 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th options whatever during a championship run. You're free to disagree with that part, but that's how I'd weigh them.
I didn't discredit anyone's contribution to the Toronto championship run. That paragraph comes off as someone complaining to complain.
