What are the Sixers doing?

[dorkestra]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

[Bankai]

I don't understand it either. Giving away young guys with potential is just going set your rebuild back further. Do they intend to rebuild for 10 years?

[Unbreakable99]

I don't understand it either. Giving away young guys with potential is just going set your rebuild back further. Do they intend to rebuild for 10 years?

Who did we give up who will set us back? You act like we traded away Magic and Worthy. We didn't trade any franchise level players. People need to stop.

[83SixersRocked]

The 76ers are giving up their draft picks for a later return. It's all the other GMs that are running pyramid schemes.

[basketball royalty]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

[Big A All Day]

I don't understand Magic fans' criticizing us. They have 6 more wins than us with our roster being in constant flux and our top prospect out.

Because I Don't respect the way the the sixers are going about it. You've got teams out there (like the magic) who are trying, but just aren't very good yet, and then you have the the sixers who trade away everybody and put a team full of D-Leaguers on the court while hoping a praying to get the #1 pick.

The funny part is you guys wanted Wiggins so bad last year and that didn't work out but Hinkies back @ it again. At least we can all say the dudes persistent lol.

While you were writing that awful rant I imagined you like this lol.


Oh well

Lol that wasn't a "rant" i was just posting my opinion in a thread that's titled "What are the sixers doing". I do find it hilarious that anytime anything is said about Philly u feel you need to rush in and defend the sixers like your Hinkies son tho lol. You've probably got "Trust the process" tatted on ur back or something lol.

Yes, im a magic fan, yes we're only a few wins ahead of you guys and yes we're not very good right now (As i already stated in my previous post) I'm not making any excuses for that... But thats the difference between me and you, i can admit these things while not trying 2 be some white knight defender the organization on realgm lol.

The real issue is that anytime anyone questions Hinkies "plan" u flock in to defend him and everybody else must be a "hater" lol. But in all actuality theres MAJOR question marks 4 the sixers moving forward... Injury concerns, Embiids ballooning weight and lack of motivation, when will saric come over and how will he transition into the nba? How will these pieces fit? How long will the fans and ownership allow this rebuild to go on? etc... But anytime these points are raised all we hear is "we've only been tanking for like 2 years, stop with this already" and "Haaatterrrrrssss" lol.

[mksp]

Because I Don't respect the way the the sixers are going about it. You've got teams out there (like the magic) who are trying, but just aren't very good yet, and then you have the the sixers who trade away everybody and put a team full of D-Leaguers on the court while hoping a praying to get the #1 pick.

The funny part is you guys wanted Wiggins so bad last year and that didn't work out but Hinkies back @ it again. At least we can all say the dudes persistent lol.

While you were writing that awful rant I imagined you like this lol.


Oh well

Lol that wasn't a "rant" i was just posting my opinion in a thread that's titled "What are the sixers doing". I do find it hilarious that anytime anything is said about Philly u feel you need to rush in and defend the sixers like your the owners son tho lol. You've probably got "Trust the process" tatted on ur back or something lol.

Yes, im a magic fan, yes we're only a few wins ahead of you guys and yes we're not very good right now (As i already stated in my previous post) I'm not making any excuses for that... But thats the difference between me and you, i can admit these things while not trying 2 be some white knight defender the organization on realgm lol.

The real issue is that anytime anyone questions Hinkies "plan" u flock in to defend him and everybody else must be a "hater" lol. But in all actuality theres MAJOR question marks 4 the sixers moving forward... Injury concerns, Embiids ballooning weight and lack of motivation, when will saric come over and how will he transition into the nba? How will these pieces fit? How long will the fans and ownership allow this rebuild to go on? etc... But anytime these points are raised all we hear is "we've only been tanking for like 2 years, stop with this already" and "Haaatterrrrrssss" lol.

The thing that is annoying is when people keep parroting false facts, like Embiid's "ballooning" weight. Have you seen the latest videos of him? Does he look 300 lbs to you? No, but people keep bringing up that article.

Teams never know how rookies will fit or perform. That's the risk. Its the same risk for every team.

Elfrid Payton is not a good basketball player right now. Magic fans are betting that he can learn how to shoot. How is that any different than Sixers fans betting that Saric can transition to the NBA?

[Sixerscan]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

FWIW I think that'd be more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

Hinkie is the hub, asking the same people (the Sixers owners) to reinvest year after year, etc.

[Sixerscan]

I find these threads hilarious. The only teams worried about the 76ers methods are other Tanking teams and teams the 76ers have recently completed trades with for their picks. The fact that an outside fan base is angry or critical at the method should be reassuring to the 76ers.

TBF those groups probably add up to half the league

[Big A All Day]

While you were writing that awful rant I imagined you like this lol.


Oh well

Lol that wasn't a "rant" i was just posting my opinion in a thread that's titled "What are the sixers doing". I do find it hilarious that anytime anything is said about Philly u feel you need to rush in and defend the sixers like your the owners son tho lol. You've probably got "Trust the process" tatted on ur back or something lol.

Yes, im a magic fan, yes we're only a few wins ahead of you guys and yes we're not very good right now (As i already stated in my previous post) I'm not making any excuses for that... But thats the difference between me and you, i can admit these things while not trying 2 be some white knight defender the organization on realgm lol.

The real issue is that anytime anyone questions Hinkies "plan" u flock in to defend him and everybody else must be a "hater" lol. But in all actuality theres MAJOR question marks 4 the sixers moving forward... Injury concerns, Embiids ballooning weight and lack of motivation, when will saric come over and how will he transition into the nba? How will these pieces fit? How long will the fans and ownership allow this rebuild to go on? etc... But anytime these points are raised all we hear is "we've only been tanking for like 2 years, stop with this already" and "Haaatterrrrrssss" lol.

The thing that is annoying is when people keep parroting false facts, like Embiid's "ballooning" weight. Have you seen the latest videos of him? Does he look 300 lbs to you? No, but people keep bringing up that article.

Teams never know how rookies will fit or perform. That's the risk. Its the same risk for every team.

Elfrid Payton is not a good basketball player right now. Magic fans are betting that he can learn how to shoot. How is that any different than Sixers fans betting that Saric can transition to the NBA?

Its actually a lot different seeing as he's currently under contract in Europe. Your right about Paytons shooting tho it is a big concern.

[basketball royalty]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

FWIW I think that's more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

You may be right. I thought that was the same thing. I guess in a pyramid scheme the top gains most with depreciating value each level down until it bottoms out. Ponzi has just the dude on top cashing in (looked it up)

[Sixerscan]

Vucevic is better than any player the Sixers have...

I don't understand Magic fans' criticizing us. They have 6 more wins than us with our roster being in constant flux and our top prospect out.

Because I Don't respect the way the the sixers are going about it. You've got teams out there (like the magic) who are trying, but just aren't very good yet, and then you have the the sixers who trade away everybody and put a team full of D-Leaguers on the court while hoping a praying to get the #1 pick.

The funny part is you guys wanted Wiggins so bad last year and that didn't work out but Hinkies back @ it again. At least we can all say the dudes persistent lol.

If we still had Vuc and all of our picks when Hinkie took over we probably wouldn't have tanked as hard as we did.

Maybe you guys could give Vuc back to us? We can give you JRich

[Sixerscan]

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

FWIW I think that's more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

You may be right. I thought that was the same thing. I guess in a pyramid scheme the top gains most with depreciating value each level down until it bottoms out. Ponzi has just the dude on top cashing in (looked it up)

Right, also in a pyramid scheme you have new investors constantly coming in, versus a Ponzi scheme you generally have the same people putting more and more money in (The Sixers owners and fans).

[Big A All Day]

I don't understand Magic fans' criticizing us. They have 6 more wins than us with our roster being in constant flux and our top prospect out.

Because I Don't respect the way the the sixers are going about it. You've got teams out there (like the magic) who are trying, but just aren't very good yet, and then you have the the sixers who trade away everybody and put a team full of D-Leaguers on the court while hoping a praying to get the #1 pick.

The funny part is you guys wanted Wiggins so bad last year and that didn't work out but Hinkies back @ it again. At least we can all say the dudes persistent lol.

Nice try but massive fail. Please point to one article or quote or story of Hinkie saying he wanted Wiggins? Why would Hinkie be upset with getting the top prospect in Embiid?

And what's your team's poor excuse for being back in the lottery again and only having six more wins than us? So your team is barely better than D Leaguers? That's a YOU problem and is more of an indictment on your team.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/spor ... ggins.html

A league source told the Daily News this afternoon that the 76ers "really, really, really want Andrew Wiggins" and are doing all they can to try and trade for the No. 1 overall pick

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... w-wiggins/

Andrew Wiggins wants to play for the 76ers, according to Marc J. Spears of Yahoo Sports.And the 76ers apparently want him.
They’re looking into trading up from their No. 3 pick and bringing Wiggins to Philadelphia.

http://au.ibtimes.com/2014-nba-draft-ne ... ns-1344232

How bad do the Sixers want Wiggins? According to an ESPN report, Philadelphia has inquired about an exchange with the Cavaliers’ first pick and is willing to give up their No. 3 pick and power forward Thaddeus Young in exchange for the top pick in the 2014 NBA Draft set on June 26.

REAL GM WIRETAP LOL

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ew-Wiggins

According to sources, the 76ers are trying to do whatever they can to draft Wiggins.The 76ers own the third overall pick and are willing to move up by offering that pick and Thaddeus Young for the right to draft Wiggins.

[humblebum]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

FWIW I think that'd be more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

Hinkie is the hub, asking the same people (the Sixers owners) to reinvest year after year, etc.

Exactly right.

I just think this is an mental exercise in wishful thinking for the Sixers. The lottery system is designed to give really low odds to getting the exact pick you want, and there is a further erosion of value in the draft due to injuries, young players not developing, developing bad habits (on or off the court), and flat out bust draft picks. The best of the best type talents are so rare and slippery that it's kind of like the California gold rush mentality. Sure some types you'll catch a golden nugget or two... but without all the right equipment (a functional team environment, vet role players, coaching, etc.) a lot of these gold digging operations come up bust.

We'll see what Embiid turns out to be and how that impacts Hinkie's level of urgency. But at this stage in the "experiment" (or less kindly, Ponzi Scheme) it's impossible to say how it'll turn out. Two years away, from being two years away.

[Sixerscan]

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

FWIW I think that'd be more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

Hinkie is the hub, asking the same people (the Sixers owners) to reinvest year after year, etc.

Exactly right.

I just think this is an mental exercise in wishful thinking for the Sixers. The lottery system is designed to give really low odds to getting the exact pick you want, and there is a further erosion of value in the draft due to injuries, young players not developing, developing bad habits (on or off the court), and flat out bust draft picks. The best of the best type talents are so rare and slippery that it's kind of like the California gold rush mentality. Sure some types you'll catch a golden nugget or two... but without all the right equipment (a functional team environment, vet role players, coaching, etc.) a lot of these gold digging operations come up bust.

We'll see what Embiid turns out to be and how that impacts Hinkie's level of urgency. But at this stage in the "experiment" (or less kindly, Ponzi Scheme) it's impossible to say how it'll turn out. Two years away, from being two years away.

Yeah, and to be clear, the idea of Hinkie deciding on day one that he's going to pull a Ponzi scheme on a bunch of billionaire hedge fund experts just so he can keep his job for an extra year or two is hilarious.

I think the people that think it's definitely going to work out are engaging in wishful thinking.

But I think the people that think it was the best plan of action considering where we were post Bynum trade, then Embiid being injured but still the best guy available at #3 in the draft, etc are being fairly reasonable.

I don't think the plan involves "getting the exact pick you want," it involves some actions and the expected value that comes from that action.

[HartfordWhalers]

Spoiler:

Because I Don't respect the way the the sixers are going about it. You've got teams out there (like the magic) who are trying, but just aren't very good yet, and then you have the the sixers who trade away everybody and put a team full of D-Leaguers on the court while hoping a praying to get the #1 pick.

The funny part is you guys wanted Wiggins so bad last year and that didn't work out but Hinkies back @ it again. At least we can all say the dudes persistent lol.

Nice try but massive fail. Please point to one article or quote or story of Hinkie saying he wanted Wiggins? Why would Hinkie be upset with getting the top prospect in Embiid?

And what's your team's poor excuse for being back in the lottery again and only having six more wins than us? So your team is barely better than D Leaguers? That's a YOU problem and is more of an indictment on your team.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/spor ... ggins.html

A league source told the Daily News this afternoon that the 76ers "really, really, really want Andrew Wiggins" and are doing all they can to try and trade for the No. 1 overall pick

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... w-wiggins/

Andrew Wiggins wants to play for the 76ers, according to Marc J. Spears of Yahoo Sports.And the 76ers apparently want him.
They’re looking into trading up from their No. 3 pick and bringing Wiggins to Philadelphia.

http://au.ibtimes.com/2014-nba-draft-ne ... ns-1344232

How bad do the Sixers want Wiggins? According to an ESPN report, Philadelphia has inquired about an exchange with the Cavaliers’ first pick and is willing to give up their No. 3 pick and power forward Thaddeus Young in exchange for the top pick in the 2014 NBA Draft set on June 26.

REAL GM WIRETAP LOL

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ew-Wiggins

According to sources, the 76ers are trying to do whatever they can to draft Wiggins.The 76ers own the third overall pick and are willing to move up by offering that pick and Thaddeus Young for the right to draft Wiggins.

So, to review the quotes from Hinkie are not from Hinkie at all? You sure ... oh wait, no.

There was considerable rumors that the Sixers wanted Wiggins. And there were considerable rumors that the Sixers really wanted Embiid. And there were just about none that the team wanted Jabari.

At the end of the day, the most definitive commentary I have seen on it comes from Woj, who had the Sixers not offering 3 and 10 and not looking to move up to 1 at all. Which matches what Hinkie said post draft about feeling lucky when Embiid got injured in that it could drop him and they had a shot at him like with Noel.

You can pick philly.com (and Chad Ford) over Woj, but I wouldn't. The track record when making statements about what Philly wants is really awful, both with rumors and with real transactions (like when reporting things like Bennett's inclusion in the Thad trade).

As it currently stands, the local press have very little insight into the secretive GM's thinking, and the amount of frustration over this has filled more than a few articles. Chad Ford saying the Sixers wanted Wiggins is a much better source than the local media, and given his track record, that says a lot.

I think its definitely possible that Philly wanted either, or even Jabari. So far, every move Philly has made has shocked the coverage of the team. So, anyone saying they knew what Philly was thinking is wrong.

[humblebum]

FWIW I think that'd be more a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme.

Hinkie is the hub, asking the same people (the Sixers owners) to reinvest year after year, etc.

Exactly right.

I just think this is an mental exercise in wishful thinking for the Sixers. The lottery system is designed to give really low odds to getting the exact pick you want, and there is a further erosion of value in the draft due to injuries, young players not developing, developing bad habits (on or off the court), and flat out bust draft picks. The best of the best type talents are so rare and slippery that it's kind of like the California gold rush mentality. Sure some types you'll catch a golden nugget or two... but without all the right equipment (a functional team environment, vet role players, coaching, etc.) a lot of these gold digging operations come up bust.

We'll see what Embiid turns out to be and how that impacts Hinkie's level of urgency. But at this stage in the "experiment" (or less kindly, Ponzi Scheme) it's impossible to say how it'll turn out. Two years away, from being two years away.

Yeah, and to be clear, the idea of Hinkie deciding on day one that he's going to pull a Ponzi scheme on a bunch of billionaire hedge fund experts just so he can keep his job for an extra year or two is hilarious.

I think the people that think it's definitely going to work out are engaging in wishful thinking.

But I think the people that think it was the best plan of action considering where we were post Bynum trade, then Embiid being injured but still the best guy available at #3 in the draft, etc are being fairly reasonable.

I don't think the plan involves "getting the exact pick you want," it involves some actions and the expected value that comes from that action.

LMAO

So true.

I don't even think it's a bad plan... it's just a very difficult proposition to find the right talents and actually surround that player or players with an environment that will make him want to stay and win with your franchise. It's not just talent that counts... it's talent, plus environment, plus leadership. Then you have to throw in some luck...

Any path you go to rebuild a team in the NBA is fraught with perils. But as a C's fan I just don't trust the lottery system. So maybe I'm biased against it.... but also, I just think of talent as dispersed more broadly and that a lot of this identifying and drafting of players is much more of a journey of the heart than it is something that can entirely be figured out through analytical observation and accounting.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

I tired doing what the sixers are doing in 2k and i got fired from my GM position.

[P4nthers11]

Can you please or someone rationalize the pyramid scheme analogy for me? Doesn't make any sense.

When I called it sort of a pyramid scheme it is because you trade for a draft pick, then trade that player you picked for a draft pick the next year and so on and so on. In the end you are always trading for the next pick and never actually cashing in on the previous picks because you traded them. So you are always working on potential and never have to worry about actually winning games. The only winner would be Hinkie in this situation because he would continue to get paid for his job when he isn't improving the team, just getting the next pick and selling people on the future.

Of course I don't believe he is actually doing this. He probably thinks he has some great formula, and maybe he does. But if he doesn't do some sort of moneyball magic, actually better than moneyball magic cuz the As never actually won anything I don't think, Hinkie will be exposed and thought of as a charlatan. Basically, there will either be a Hollywood movie of the Philadelphia Experiment or Charles Barkley will take the GM job from him.

Why is it that nobody can seem to grasp that this is year TWO of the Hinkie regime. Holy crap. It is getting ridiculous. I have never seen a guy become such a lightning rod in such a short amount of time. When the Sixers had MCW people called him the worst ROY ever pointed out he was older than Brandon Knight and that he has a broken shot. Sixers Trade him for a lottery pick and people lose their damn minds.

Also, a few things I want to get off my chest before I back-off this thread and let the level of discourse once again devolve into trolling and hot-takes:

1) What is a losing culture? Like seriously. What is it? How is it that the Sixers somehow are attributed as having one while other teams who have been bad for decades do not? It seems like a team that is bad for a decade but does so with overpaid veterans, re-tread coaches, inept management, and extensive bleating about how the turnaround is coming does not have a losing culture, but yet the Sixers do. In the event I can change anyone's mind I would just like to say that if they knew anything about Brett Brown and who he is and the kind of coach he is they would not worry about this team's "culture". The team emphasizes development and there is accountability. Players are benched for mistakes. The team clearly tries to win. People who joke about the Sixers being a bad watch have never actually watched the Sixers because they are one of the faster teams and they play gutsy every night. The team is full of high character guys and I'll roll with whatever culture is being built in Philly any day of the week over dysfunctional locker rooms full of these mythical veterans that are the epitome of professionalism and leadership and take every rookie under the wing and never whine about their role or challenge the coach's authority. Seriously. Just shut up and wait a couple years. If it fails you can claim to be the genius then.
2) Sam Hinkie is smarter than you. Probably smarter than your GM too. The Sixers ownership is also hands-off and allowing him to do what he thinks needs to be done to win. With job security. I understand this might make you feel jealous because I think a lot of teams would be better run with GMs who think outside the box, hands-off ownership, and no pressure to do quick, keep my job fixes.
3) I agree with the criticism that quality basketball has its own value. A championship is the goal, but competitive basketball that results in a decent play-off run is still valuable in itself even if it doesn't result in a championship. So I see the argument that all or nothing is not the route to take, and it is not like the entire league can adopt the plan of the Sixers. I'm not going to argue that slowly building isn't a viable strategy. We know it is and teams like the Hawks have done it. That doesn't mean its the only way. So lets all chill the hell out and not form this hilarious tyranny of the status quo where everything contrary to established wisdom is to be derided and crushed.

Out