NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sports

[Neutral 123]

I still don't see how this is about race rather than money. That's the driving factor for the rule. The comparisons to the other sports is inappropriate because those sports have a much different developmental process for their athletes as compared to the NBA.

It's totally unfair that these kids are precluded from joining their chosen profession by an age limit when they are legal adults with the ability to perform said job. It's BS, especially considering how quickly such an amazing opportunity could be taken away by a freak injury and thereby ruin any chance of those players from making millions when they were perfectly capable if not for said rule.

But the mere fact that this unfair rule affects black athletes in a much larger way than other races does not make it racist.

I'm not one who can't acknowledge that racism doesn't need intent, nor do I think that institutionalized racism isn't still a major issue in America. But in this instance it seems to me to come down to one factor above all others and that is money. The NBA can generate more revenue by reducing the number of busts in the draft because kids weren't ready for the association, not to mention the exponential increases in marketability and recognition that results from having such high profile college athletes entering the draft.

If the MLB or NHL could make more money by instituting such a rule it would either be in place or have people vigorously campaigning for it. But it can't and thus won't (although the NHL has discussed it). I don't doubt for a second that if the athletes coming out of high school with the skills to go straight to the NBA were white there would still be that rule. Why? Because it makes the NBA lots and lots of money. I have yet to see a poster present a position that provides a more convincing argument that racism is the root cause for this rule rather than monetary gain.

I hear that a lot, that the same would apply to whites, yet over and over, majority time it is blacks getting the short end of the stick. There is virtually no stat, no measure, that demonstrates that racism doesn't exist, or still isn't a major factor in society. When there's a Travis Martin, walking home with candy, minding his own business, and some black guy, chases, guns him down and claims self defense and acquitted, then maybe it race will truly be less of an issue.

I'm talking about this particular instance. I'm not saying that in other cases if you reverse the races there would be drastically different outcomes, I think Travon Martin is a perfect example of an instance where race definitely played a facor. But in this case I don't think the NBA would change their stance and that's because I don't think they are trying to do anything more than maximize their revenues. And until someone can put forth an argument that can support the position that the NBA's rule is more about race than money, I'm standing by my position. Race is a big issue in many facets of life in America right now, I just don't think this is one of them and no one here has put forth an argument that has been nearly sufficient to sway me. I'm open to listening and changing my opinion, but I've yet to see a convincing argument.

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

[ChosunX]

I hear that a lot, that the same would apply to whites, yet over and over, majority time it is blacks getting the short end of the stick. There is virtually no stat, no measure, that demonstrates that racism doesn't exist, or still isn't a major factor in society. When there's a Travis Martin, walking home with candy, minding his own business, and some black guy, chases, guns him down and claims self defense and acquitted, then maybe it race will truly be less of an issue.

I'm talking about this particular instance. I'm not saying that in other cases if you reverse the races there would be drastically different outcomes, I think Travon Martin is a perfect example of an instance where race definitely played a facor. But in this case I don't think the NBA would change their stance and that's because I don't think they are trying to do anything more than maximize their revenues. And until someone can put forth an argument that can support the position that the NBA's rule is more about race than money, I'm standing by my position. Race is a big issue in many facets of life in America right now, I just don't think this is one of them and no one here has put forth an argument that has been nearly sufficient to sway me. I'm open to listening and changing my opinion, but I've yet to see a convincing argument.

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

It's about class and puritanism. Lot's of basketball fans would not like to see white low class bball players get rich quick either and drive around fancy cars and sleep with hoties.

[Neutral 123]

First, let me say, I really enjoyed reading your back and forth. I'd like to add my own point of view. One, I'd say part of the problem is there is a culture of denial with all issues involving race. Racism is better hidden, harder to prove and point out, and that seems to be the culture of today. Simply deny, deny, deny, and conceal it as much as possible.

Part of the problem here is that society moves towards more acceptance of 'others' we've done it for the wrong reasons. We accept others because we've been told that they are just like us. True acceptance means accepting differences. When we have accept differences, we move away from a stringent idea of equality, and towards a view of fairness.

Its completely equal to force black and white players to wait several years after high school to be eligible for the draft, but when you know the vast majority of those affected will be black, its hardly fair.

The whole idea that blacks must be kept away from financial success for their own good, is and has been a common tactic to steal from blacks. This is just another form of that theft. Forcing guys who are good enough to earn a living playing in the NBA to play as amateurs to enrich the NCAA, colleges, coaches etcetera. Its legalized theft.

Big And 1.

I remember having this exact argument with a bunch of people back in a class in grad school. One of the people there actually used that classic line, "When I look at people, I don't see color, I just see people." I almost laughed. True acceptance is about seeing individuals in their entirety, similarities and differences. Some people are black and if we fail to acknowledge that fact, we're not accepting those people for who they are.

In addition, racism has become almost taboo to discuss, it's kind of disappointing.

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

[Neutral 123]

I'm talking about this particular instance. I'm not saying that in other cases if you reverse the races there would be drastically different outcomes, I think Travon Martin is a perfect example of an instance where race definitely played a facor. But in this case I don't think the NBA would change their stance and that's because I don't think they are trying to do anything more than maximize their revenues. And until someone can put forth an argument that can support the position that the NBA's rule is more about race than money, I'm standing by my position. Race is a big issue in many facets of life in America right now, I just don't think this is one of them and no one here has put forth an argument that has been nearly sufficient to sway me. I'm open to listening and changing my opinion, but I've yet to see a convincing argument.

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

It's about class and puritanism. Lot's of basketball fans would not like to see white low class bball players get rich quick either and drive around fancy cars and sleep with hoties.

So its clearly about class but not race? The history of the U.S would make it damn near impossible for race not to be a factor.

[ChosunX]

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

It's about class and puritanism. Lot's of basketball fans would not like to see white low class bball players get rich quick either and drive around fancy cars and sleep with hoties.

So its clearly about class but not race? The history of the U.S would make it damn near impossible for race not to be a factor.

Minus the small class of smartypants(i am one of them) most people barely think about history.

[cl2117]

I hear that a lot, that the same would apply to whites, yet over and over, majority time it is blacks getting the short end of the stick. There is virtually no stat, no measure, that demonstrates that racism doesn't exist, or still isn't a major factor in society. When there's a Travis Martin, walking home with candy, minding his own business, and some black guy, chases, guns him down and claims self defense and acquitted, then maybe it race will truly be less of an issue.

I'm talking about this particular instance. I'm not saying that in other cases if you reverse the races there would be drastically different outcomes, I think Travon Martin is a perfect example of an instance where race definitely played a facor. But in this case I don't think the NBA would change their stance and that's because I don't think they are trying to do anything more than maximize their revenues. And until someone can put forth an argument that can support the position that the NBA's rule is more about race than money, I'm standing by my position. Race is a big issue in many facets of life in America right now, I just don't think this is one of them and no one here has put forth an argument that has been nearly sufficient to sway me. I'm open to listening and changing my opinion, but I've yet to see a convincing argument.

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

You can't separate racism from money? Just because you think the purest motivation of racism is to justify theft of wealth and resources, doesn't mean that a business decision that is about money is inherently racist. You're saying racism is about money, I'm saying money isn't necessarily about race.

The reason they can get away with it isn't because this society is racist it's because they're a private organization and can place whatever restrictions on their potential employees they want. It's not fair, but that doesn't make it racist. They're not forced to work for free at their trade, they're forced to wait a year before they can enter the NBA. They could play abroad, they could play in the D-league, they could sit out until they're of age. They're not forced into the NCAA. Is it an infringement on their freedom? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it illegal? No. Is it racist? No.

You need to be 25 to be a Representative, you need to be 30 to be a Senator, you need to be 35 to be a Vice-President or President. Is that racist against white people since most politicians are white men? I'm sure there are plenty of people under those age limits are more than qualified to hold those positions.

[ceremony816]

Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

Complaining about racism while being racist makes you look like an idiot. I wasn't aware hundreds of millions of people possessed a standard response.
Do we have standard responses for a variety of topics or only ones regarding American-based race matters?

Edit: I have also reported your post for racism. There is no need for attitudes like yours here.

If you think that post is bad, head over to Current Affairs sometime. It's like open season on white people over there. Posts like his are VERY common on that board.

[ChosunX]

First, let me say, I really enjoyed reading your back and forth. I'd like to add my own point of view. One, I'd say part of the problem is there is a culture of denial with all issues involving race. Racism is better hidden, harder to prove and point out, and that seems to be the culture of today. Simply deny, deny, deny, and conceal it as much as possible.

Part of the problem here is that society moves towards more acceptance of 'others' we've done it for the wrong reasons. We accept others because we've been told that they are just like us. True acceptance means accepting differences. When we have accept differences, we move away from a stringent idea of equality, and towards a view of fairness.

Its completely equal to force black and white players to wait several years after high school to be eligible for the draft, but when you know the vast majority of those affected will be black, its hardly fair.

The whole idea that blacks must be kept away from financial success for their own good, is and has been a common tactic to steal from blacks. This is just another form of that theft. Forcing guys who are good enough to earn a living playing in the NBA to play as amateurs to enrich the NCAA, colleges, coaches etcetera. Its legalized theft.

Big And 1.

I remember having this exact argument with a bunch of people back in a class in grad school. One of the people there actually used that classic line, "When I look at people, I don't see color, I just see people." I almost laughed. True acceptance is about seeing individuals in their entirety, similarities and differences. Some people are black and if we fail to acknowledge that fact, we're not accepting those people for who they are.

In addition, racism has become almost taboo to discuss, it's kind of disappointing.

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

History is friggin horrible filled with suffering. Thomas Jefferson was one the first inventors of racial science. What do i need to confron about the past? Why should i have strong feelings about something i did not participate in?

[cbk41]

First, let me say, I really enjoyed reading your back and forth. I'd like to add my own point of view. One, I'd say part of the problem is there is a culture of denial with all issues involving race. Racism is better hidden, harder to prove and point out, and that seems to be the culture of today. Simply deny, deny, deny, and conceal it as much as possible.

Part of the problem here is that society moves towards more acceptance of 'others' we've done it for the wrong reasons. We accept others because we've been told that they are just like us. True acceptance means accepting differences. When we have accept differences, we move away from a stringent idea of equality, and towards a view of fairness.

Its completely equal to force black and white players to wait several years after high school to be eligible for the draft, but when you know the vast majority of those affected will be black, its hardly fair.

The whole idea that blacks must be kept away from financial success for their own good, is and has been a common tactic to steal from blacks. This is just another form of that theft. Forcing guys who are good enough to earn a living playing in the NBA to play as amateurs to enrich the NCAA, colleges, coaches etcetera. Its legalized theft.

Big And 1.

I remember having this exact argument with a bunch of people back in a class in grad school. One of the people there actually used that classic line, "When I look at people, I don't see color, I just see people." I almost laughed. True acceptance is about seeing individuals in their entirety, similarities and differences. Some people are black and if we fail to acknowledge that fact, we're not accepting those people for who they are.

In addition, racism has become almost taboo to discuss, it's kind of disappointing.

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

There are unique problems to those who wish to live in a heterogeneous, yet integrated society. I believe there is something to be said of, and be proud of, for at least being where we are today. There are many homogeneous societies in the world that do not have the complex sociocultural and racial dynamics on the scale and magnitude that the United States has to face on a daily basis.

I personally think it's impossible to eliminate racism in an integrated society without embracing the aforementioned 'color-blind' attitudes. One can accept and embrace you for being human and living through things all humans share. It's an impossible task wish for certain barriers to be broken and emphasize very closely related ones. That's not to say progress cannot be made going forward, but the goals drawn should be more realistic to make the going progress smoother.

tl;dr You cannot force people to accept something. Choosing to live together with others that are different from you is impossible without compromise and understanding. If a 'color-blind' attitude is what people need to live in peace and harmony, then we should at least on some level embrace it.

[Neutral 123]

It's about class and puritanism. Lot's of basketball fans would not like to see white low class bball players get rich quick either and drive around fancy cars and sleep with hoties.

So its clearly about class but not race? The history of the U.S would make it damn near impossible for race not to be a factor.

Minus the small class of smartypants(i am one of them) most people barely think about history.

They are ignorant of it. That is why they attempt to downplay and whitewash the America's horrific history when it comes to race. How can anyone be aware of history and be dumbfounded that racism permeates nearly every aspect of America's society?

[Neutral 123]

Big And 1.

I remember having this exact argument with a bunch of people back in a class in grad school. One of the people there actually used that classic line, "When I look at people, I don't see color, I just see people." I almost laughed. True acceptance is about seeing individuals in their entirety, similarities and differences. Some people are black and if we fail to acknowledge that fact, we're not accepting those people for who they are.

In addition, racism has become almost taboo to discuss, it's kind of disappointing.

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

History is friggin horrible filled with suffering. Thomas Jefferson was one the first inventors of racial science. What do i need to confron about the past? Why should i have strong feelings about something i did not participate in?

We are all connected and a product of that past. We aren't even talking about hundreds of years ago either. Selma was 50 years ago. The city of Ferguson was last week.

[ChosunX]

So its clearly about class but not race? The history of the U.S would make it damn near impossible for race not to be a factor.

Minus the small class of smartypants(i am one of them) most people barely think about history.

They are ignorant of it. That is why they attempt to downplay and whitewash the America's horrific history when it comes to race. How can anyone be aware of history and be dumbfounded that racism permeates nearly every aspect of America's society?

It's interpretation, not every historian is obsessed with race.

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

History is friggin horrible filled with suffering. Thomas Jefferson was one the first inventors of racial science. What do i need to confron about the past? Why should i have strong feelings about something i did not participate in?

We are all connected and a product of that past. We aren't even talking about hundreds of years ago either. Selma was 50 years ago. The city of Ferguson was last week.

So if i am from Europe and get a citizenship, develop an American accent, embrace the culture. How am i different than someone whose ancestors fought at Saratoga? We are who make ourselves to be.

[Neutral 123]

I'm talking about this particular instance. I'm not saying that in other cases if you reverse the races there would be drastically different outcomes, I think Travon Martin is a perfect example of an instance where race definitely played a facor. But in this case I don't think the NBA would change their stance and that's because I don't think they are trying to do anything more than maximize their revenues. And until someone can put forth an argument that can support the position that the NBA's rule is more about race than money, I'm standing by my position. Race is a big issue in many facets of life in America right now, I just don't think this is one of them and no one here has put forth an argument that has been nearly sufficient to sway me. I'm open to listening and changing my opinion, but I've yet to see a convincing argument.

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

You can't separate racism from money? Just because you think the purest motivation of racism is to justify theft of wealth and resources, doesn't mean that a business decision that is about money is inherently racist. You're saying racism is about money, I'm saying money isn't necessarily about race.

The reason they can get away with it isn't because this society is racist it's because they're a private organization and can place whatever restrictions on their potential employees they want. It's not fair, but that doesn't make it racist. They're not forced to work for free at their trade, they're forced to wait a year before they can enter the NBA. They could play abroad, they could play in the D-league, they could sit out until they're of age. They're not forced into the NCAA. Is it an infringement on their freedom? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it illegal? No. Is it racist? No.

You need to be 25 to be a Representative, you need to be 30 to be a Senator, you need to be 35 to be a Vice-President or President. Is that racist against white people since most politicians are white men? I'm sure there are plenty of people under those age limits are more than qualified to hold those positions.

Would the NBA be calling for age restrictions if there was a viable domestic alternative to the NBA? They are feeding an exploitative college system and using it for their own gains. As for the legality of it, you are simply incorrect. There is a precedent here, and if the union fights the age limit, they'd likely win.

Spencer Haywood challenged these age limit rules in 1971 and won.

And again to be clear, I am not saying the NBA is racist, but that they are exploiting a racist society. One that still continues to steal wealth from blacks. A country that was founded on such theft.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIb6is5dImk&t=149[/youtube]

[NZB2323]

There are a lot of current players in the NBA, former players, coaches, and front office personnel who are black who are for the age limit.

[ChosunX]

The thing is though, you can't really separate racism from money. The purest motivation for racism is to justify the theft of wealth and resources. With that said, the NBA is the most inclusive league in my opinion. No other league attempts to reach out to and include everyone. Female refs, Latin jerseys, celebrating Chinese new years, military themed jerseys, blacks in front office positions. So I don't see this move as proof the NBA being racist, so much as the NBA exploiting a society's racism, for its own gains. The NBA can get away with this because this society is racist.

This rule pretty much violates everything that is supposed to define American freedom, capitalism blah blah. The idea that someone should be forced to work for free at their trade, until they've reached some arbitrary age, isn't freedom. The idea that someone has to leave America to get paid for their trade isn't freedom. The idea that they can work for free, while others make millions from their labor isn't freedom.

This only goes over so easy because of racism.

You can't separate racism from money? Just because you think the purest motivation of racism is to justify theft of wealth and resources, doesn't mean that a business decision that is about money is inherently racist. You're saying racism is about money, I'm saying money isn't necessarily about race.

The reason they can get away with it isn't because this society is racist it's because they're a private organization and can place whatever restrictions on their potential employees they want. It's not fair, but that doesn't make it racist. They're not forced to work for free at their trade, they're forced to wait a year before they can enter the NBA. They could play abroad, they could play in the D-league, they could sit out until they're of age. They're not forced into the NCAA. Is it an infringement on their freedom? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it illegal? No. Is it racist? No.

You need to be 25 to be a Representative, you need to be 30 to be a Senator, you need to be 35 to be a Vice-President or President. Is that racist against white people since most politicians are white men? I'm sure there are plenty of people under those age limits are more than qualified to hold those positions.

Would the NBA be calling for age restrictions if there was a viable domestic alternative to the NBA? They are feeding an exploitative college system and using it for their own gains. As for the legality of it, you are simply incorrect. There is a precedent here, and if the union fights the age limit, they'd likely win.

Spencer Haywood challenged these age limit rules in 1971 and won.

And again to be clear, I am not saying the NBA is racist, but that they are exploiting a racist society. One that still continues to steal wealth from blacks. A country that was founded on such theft.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIb6is5dImk&t=149[/youtube]

A country that was founded on such theft.

So was Ethiopia, the one country that stayed independent during the heyday of colonization. I am pretty sure it's people don''t fetishise slavery as much as the US.

[Neutral 123]

[quote="cbk41"][quote="Neutral 123"][quote="Yoshun"][quote="Neutral 123"]

First, let me say, I really enjoyed reading your back and forth. I'd like to add my own point of view. One, I'd say part of the problem is there is a culture of denial with all issues involving race. Racism is better hidden, harder to prove and point out, and that seems to be the culture of today. Simply deny, deny, deny, and conceal it as much as possible.

Part of the problem here is that society moves towards more acceptance of 'others' we've done it for the wrong reasons. We accept others because we've been told that they are just like us. True acceptance means accepting differences. When we have accept differences, we move away from a stringent idea of equality, and towards a view of fairness.

Its completely equal to force black and white players to wait several years after high school to be eligible for the draft, but when you know the vast majority of those affected will be black, its hardly fair.

The whole idea that blacks must be kept away from financial success for their own good, is and has been a common tactic to steal from blacks. This is just another form of that theft. Forcing guys who are good enough to earn a living playing in the NBA to play as amateurs to enrich the NCAA, colleges, coaches etcetera. Its legalized theft.[/quote]

Big And 1.

I remember having this exact argument with a bunch of people back in a class in grad school. One of the people there actually used that classic line, "When I look at people, I don't see color, I just see people." I almost laughed. True acceptance is about seeing individuals in their entirety, similarities and differences. Some people are black and if we fail to acknowledge that fact, we're not accepting those people for who they are.

In addition, racism has become almost taboo to discuss, it's kind of disappointing.[/quote]

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.[/quote]

There are unique problems to those who wish to live in a heterogeneous, yet integrated society. I believe there is something to be said of, and be proud of, for at least being where we are today. There are many homogeneous societies in the world that do not have the complex sociocultural and racial dynamics on the scale and magnitude that the United States has to face on a daily basis.

I personally think it's impossible to eliminate racism in an integrated society without embracing the aforementioned 'color-blind' attitudes. One can accept and embrace you for being human and living through things all humans share. It's an impossible task wish for certain barriers to be broken and emphasize very closely related ones. That's not to say progress cannot be made going forward, but the goals drawn should be more realistic to make the going progress smoother.

tl;dr You cannot force people to accept something. Choosing to live together with others that are different from you is impossible without compromise and understanding. If a 'color-blind' attitude is what people need to live in peace and harmony, then we should at least on some level embrace it.[/quote]
Color blindness is impossible. What I want is for race to be seen as benign, or as benign as someone being short, or green eyed or overweight. People don't flee or resist an overweight person moving into their neighbourhood yet you aren't blind to someone being overweight.

How the heck is someone 'blind' to race when race clearly means far more than being short or overweight, or having green eyes? Its BS, and not a goal that is attainable or sensible. It isn't even acceptance. It's usually just a lie said when convenient. Ie a situation like this, where 'others' are on the short end of the stick.

[ChosunX]

That line is just regurgitated nonsense. I can relate to the idea that someone doesn't judge someone based on race, its benign to them, at least on a conscious level (subconscious is another matter). But to not see it at all? No way, and to me that sort of statement is just a part of the denial culture.

America really hasn't come to terms with its racial demons. I don't think we'll see true fairness, true healing until that past, the present, is truly confronted.

There are unique problems to those who wish to live in a heterogeneous, yet integrated society. I believe there is something to be said of, and be proud of, for at least being where we are today. There are many homogeneous societies in the world that do not have the complex sociocultural and racial dynamics on the scale and magnitude that the United States has to face on a daily basis.

I personally think it's impossible to eliminate racism in an integrated society without embracing the aforementioned 'color-blind' attitudes. One can accept and embrace you for being human and living through things all humans share. It's an impossible task wish for certain barriers to be broken and emphasize very closely related ones. That's not to say progress cannot be made going forward, but the goals drawn should be more realistic to make the going progress smoother.

tl;dr You cannot force people to accept something. Choosing to live together with others that are different from you is impossible without compromise and understanding. If a 'color-blind' attitude is what people need to live in peace and harmony, then we should at least on some level embrace it.

Color blindness is impossible. What I want is for race to be seen as benign, or as benign as someone being short, or green eyed or overweight. People don't flee or resist an overweight person moving into their neighbourhood yet you aren't blind to someone being overweight.

How the heck is someone 'blind' to race when race clearly means far more than being short or overweight, or having green eyes? Its BS, and not a goal that is attainable or sensible. It isn't even acceptance. It's usually just a lie said when convenient. Ie a situation like this, where 'others' are on the short end of the stick.

What would acceptance look like in your eyes?

[Neutral 123]

What would acceptance look like? Hmmm... how about not bringing up Ethiopia as a way to distract and deny that the U.S has a horrific and embarrassing history when it comes to race. One that still infests society today? Accepting that, can help build a platform of fairness to truly make progress towards a more harmonious society. That cannot happen while we pretend racism doesn't exist, wasn't a big deal in the past, and we are not motivated to look at black problems as American problems as well. Yes, extra effort, extra patience, extra MONEY will be needed to create a truly fair society. Instead we have Ferguson, and racist fraternities.

[madmaxmedia]

The NBPA counsel stopped short of actually calling the age limit racist, he called it a double-standard. It was OP who said it was racist.

I think race is part of the discussion (in exactly the way the NBPA counsel discussed it), though I don't think Silver for example has racist motivations in supporting the age limit- there are a lot of relevant factors beyond race here. I do believe there is a fair argument for calling the NBA age limit discriminatory when compared to lack of age barriers in almost all other sports.

racist: having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another
discriminatory: unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people

[cbk41]

What would acceptance look like? Hmmm... how about not bringing up Ethiopia as a way to distract and deny that the U.S has a horrific and embarrassing history when it comes to race. One that still infests society today? Accepting that, can help build a platform of fairness to truly make progress towards a more harmonious society. That cannot happen while we pretend racism doesn't exist, wasn't a big deal in the past, and we are not motivated to look at black problems as American problems as well. Yes, extra effort, extra patience, extra MONEY will be needed to create a truly fair society. Instead we have Ferguson, and racist fraternities.

I cannot disagree with most of that. But this guy is a good friend to keep in mind. It tells you that extrema aren't representative of the whole, and extrema will always exist, relative to the mean.