DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

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Who's on your DPOY ballot? (Pick 3.)

Jaren Jackson Jr.
83
21%
Brook Lopez
87
22%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
60
15%
Evan Mobley
37
9%
Bam Adebayo
17
4%
Nic Claxton
17
4%
Jarrett Allen
6
2%
Alex Caruso
15
4%
Jaden McDaniels
29
7%
Other
49
12%
 
Total votes: 400

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#461 » by mediocrityrules » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:46 pm

yoyoboy wrote:...

Lopez is ranked by most ahead of Mobley, as well, and while he's been awesome, I would have him third because I just think he's in a pretty optimal situation where he doesn't have the same share of responsibilities as the other two.....


I think this is a point where I don't exactly agree with, when you consider that Brook Lopez leads the NBA in contested shots with 1,185. Next on the list is Evan Mobley with 775.

Brook takes on the responsibility to get in front of as many shooters as he can to contest shots. That to me is taking on the hardest responsibility, actually defending shots.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#462 » by skones » Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:39 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:...

Lopez is ranked by most ahead of Mobley, as well, and while he's been awesome, I would have him third because I just think he's in a pretty optimal situation where he doesn't have the same share of responsibilities as the other two.....


I think this is a point where I don't exactly agree with, when you consider that Brook Lopez leads the NBA in contested shots with 1,185. Next on the list is Evan Mobley with 775.

Brook takes on the responsibility to get in front of as many shooters as he can to contest shots. That to me is taking on the hardest responsibility, actually defending shots.


The entire scheme is designed to filter players into Brook, when we talk about responsibilities, that IS the heavy lifting on the defensive end. In 2022-23 he's had more responsibility than ever with our guys on the wings pinching in fair less to overhelp.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#463 » by yoyoboy » Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:16 pm

mediocrityrules wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:...

Lopez is ranked by most ahead of Mobley, as well, and while he's been awesome, I would have him third because I just think he's in a pretty optimal situation where he doesn't have the same share of responsibilities as the other two.....


I think this is a point where I don't exactly agree with, when you consider that Brook Lopez leads the NBA in contested shots with 1,185. Next on the list is Evan Mobley with 775.

Brook takes on the responsibility to get in front of as many shooters as he can to contest shots. That to me is taking on the hardest responsibility, actually defending shots.

The point is it's a much more defined role though that asks less of him than a guy like Mobley who's tasked with being all over the floor to cover for our weak links, not to mention still being an elite rim protector (though not as good as Brook). Without Jrue and Carter bulldozing through screens and Giannis being able to cover so much ground, his drop coverage wouldn't be as effective as it is. I still very much value what Brook is doing out there, which is why I have him 3rd in my DPOY rankings, but I think it's worth taking into account the context here when you're discussing defensive impact. I believe the Cavs lose a lot more by replacing Mobley with an average defensive PF than the Bucks do replacing Lopez with an average defensive C, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against that.

Also, Mobley's versatility allows the Cavs to play more of a variety of defensive lineups and in different coverages, both catered to the opposition, and that's something that impact stats can't accurately capture. Lopez has to exclusively play the center spot and he isn't doing much of hedging, trapping, switching, etc. Mobley will meet the ballhander beyond the 3P line and recover to the roller, he'll switch onto elite guards, he'll play in a drop, he'll be played at the top of a zone similarly to how KG used to be sometimes utilized, and he'll play at the center position next to basically all guards and wings or he'll play PF next to a traditional big. And he's been successful in both of those positional roles, which has translated to the team defense results.

I also think it says something when many Bucks fans and fans of other teams are pushing Giannis for DPOY (and Jrue is being argued as an All-Defense guy) as well. When fans watching the team every game don't seem to be sure the order of the most impactful defenders of the team, then is Brook really doing most of the heavy lifting? I do personally think he has been the best defender on the team this season, but he's got awesome help and they're making All-Defense cases themselves. On the other hand, you won't find any Cavs fans who think Jarrett Allen has been the best defender on the team this year. It's pretty inarguable to anyone who's watched the games (and taken the time to dissect the advanced metrics rather than just copying and pasting the all-in-one stats) that Mobley is clearly the most valuable defender on the #1 defense in the league and that speaks volumes. Last year, I think Allen was the more important defender to the team, but Mobley has gone to another level while Allen is slightly less active defensively this year.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#464 » by mediocrityrules » Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:53 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:...

Lopez is ranked by most ahead of Mobley, as well, and while he's been awesome, I would have him third because I just think he's in a pretty optimal situation where he doesn't have the same share of responsibilities as the other two.....


I think this is a point where I don't exactly agree with, when you consider that Brook Lopez leads the NBA in contested shots with 1,185. Next on the list is Evan Mobley with 775.

Brook takes on the responsibility to get in front of as many shooters as he can to contest shots. That to me is taking on the hardest responsibility, actually defending shots.

The point is it's a much more defined role though that asks less of him than a guy like Mobley who's tasked with being all over the floor to cover for our weak links, not to mention still being an elite rim protector (though not as good as Brook). Without Jrue and Carter bulldozing through screens and Giannis being able to cover so much ground, his drop coverage wouldn't be as effective as it is. I still very much value what Brook is doing out there, which is why I have him 3rd in my DPOY rankings, but I think it's worth taking into account the context here when you're discussing defensive impact. I believe the Cavs lose a lot more by replacing Mobley with an average defensive PF than the Bucks do replacing Lopez with an average defensive C, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against that.

Also, Mobley's versatility allows the Cavs to play more of a variety of defensive lineups and in different coverages, both catered to the opposition, and that's something that impact stats can't accurately capture. Lopez has to exclusively play the center spot and he isn't doing much of hedging, trapping, switching, etc. Mobley will meet the ballhander beyond the 3P line and recover to the roller, he'll switch onto elite guards, he'll play in a drop, he'll be played at the top of a zone similarly to how KG used to be sometimes utilized, and he'll play at the center position next to basically all guards and wings or he'll play PF next to a traditional big. And he's been successful in both of those positional roles, which has translated to the team defense results.

I also think it says something when many Bucks fans and fans of other teams are pushing Giannis for DPOY (and Jrue is being argued as an All-Defense guy) as well. When fans watching the team every game don't seem to be sure the order of the most impactful defenders of the team, then is Brook really doing most of the heavy lifting? I do personally think he has been the best defender on the team this season, but he's got awesome help and they're making All-Defense cases themselves. On the other hand, you won't find any Cavs fans who think Jarrett Allen has been the best defender on the team this year. It's pretty inarguable to anyone who's watched the games (and taken the time to dissect the advanced metrics rather than just copying and pasting the all-in-one stats) that Mobley is clearly the most valuable defender on the #1 defense in the league and that speaks volumes. Last year, I think Allen was the more important defender to the team, but Mobley has gone to another level while Allen is slightly less active defensively this year.


That's just not the case. A quick trip to the Bucks board or even a look at where this poll sits now shows that Bucks fans understand Brook's value, and that is from the guys that watch every single minute of every game. Giannis starts every season in the top few for DPOY based on reputation alone which will always have him poll well. But it's clear as the season has progressed that it's Brook that is head and shoulders above anyone else as the defensive backbone of the team.

Also, he's literally contested hundreds more shots than the next guy. Hundreds! How is this not taking on more responsibility??
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#465 » by benhillboy » Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:31 am

I gotta give the nod to JJJ after tonight. He wreaks havoc on damn near every inch of the floor. Brook ain’t ball denying Kyrie and forcing him off the ball no sir. With awful fouling tendencies he still outclasses Brook in all the metrics I trust. Played very well tonight with 5 fouls down the stretch.

Brook does what he can, which is mostly set the standard for drop coverage and back line communication. JJJ does whatever the hell he wants.

Keep in mind I may be overly praiseworthy because the Grizz pulled my -2.5 point spread bet back from the depths of hell lol.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#466 » by BAMAFREAK » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:03 am

benhillboy wrote:I gotta give the nod to JJJ after tonight. He wreaks havoc on damn near every inch of the floor. Brook ain’t ball denying Kyrie and forcing him off the ball no sir. With awful fouling tendencies he still outclasses Brook in all the metrics I trust. Played very well tonight with 5 fouls down the stretch.

Brook does what he can, which is mostly set the standard for drop coverage and back line communication. JJJ does whatever the hell he wants.

Keep in mind I may be overly praiseworthy because the Grizz pulled my -2.5 point spread bet back from the depths of hell lol.


Length strength and balance. Dude is very agile for someone with his frame. He just eats up everything near him.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#467 » by Dacost » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:36 am

To be able to guard Kyrie at 6'11 is just insane.

Jackson has taken it to another level this year.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#468 » by CobraCommander » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:10 am

posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=104935798

Greekbuck34 nominated Eyetoma as DPOY for his defense of Embiid and I would like to second that nomination…

Eyetoma doesn’t take a post off… he defends without fouling and never backs down even when overpowered with facts. I second this nomination!

Bravo Eyetoma… bravo
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#469 » by greg4012 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:11 pm

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Bam will be perennially robbed of DPOY accolades
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#470 » by yoyoboy » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:27 pm

mediocrityrules wrote:That's just not the case. A quick trip to the Bucks board or even a look at where this poll sits now shows that Bucks fans understand Brook's value, and that is from the guys that watch every single minute of every game. Giannis starts every season in the top few for DPOY based on reputation alone which will always have him poll well. But it's clear as the season has progressed that it's Brook that is head and shoulders above anyone else as the defensive backbone of the team.

Also, he's literally contested hundreds more shots than the next guy. Hundreds! How is this not taking on more responsibility??

Giannis has 10 votes in this poll? The 3rd most of the candidates and twice as many as Mobley. If 40% of the votes for the Bucks players are going to him versus Brook, then that seems pretty contested to me.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#471 » by Klomp » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:56 pm

Just remember as you're looking at statistics to aid your opinion...

Jaden McDaniels was not credited with ANYTHING in the stat sheet for this play last night.

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And Minnesota had to challenge in order to overturn this egregious foul call on McDaniels...

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#472 » by SpreeS » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:48 am

DPOY - JJJ

1st JJJ, Lopez, Adebayo, Giannis, Holiday
2nd Mobley, Green, McDaniels, Butler, Caruso
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#473 » by CharityStripe34 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:12 pm

mediocrityrules wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
I think this is a point where I don't exactly agree with, when you consider that Brook Lopez leads the NBA in contested shots with 1,185. Next on the list is Evan Mobley with 775.

Brook takes on the responsibility to get in front of as many shooters as he can to contest shots. That to me is taking on the hardest responsibility, actually defending shots.

The point is it's a much more defined role though that asks less of him than a guy like Mobley who's tasked with being all over the floor to cover for our weak links, not to mention still being an elite rim protector (though not as good as Brook). Without Jrue and Carter bulldozing through screens and Giannis being able to cover so much ground, his drop coverage wouldn't be as effective as it is. I still very much value what Brook is doing out there, which is why I have him 3rd in my DPOY rankings, but I think it's worth taking into account the context here when you're discussing defensive impact. I believe the Cavs lose a lot more by replacing Mobley with an average defensive PF than the Bucks do replacing Lopez with an average defensive C, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against that.

Also, Mobley's versatility allows the Cavs to play more of a variety of defensive lineups and in different coverages, both catered to the opposition, and that's something that impact stats can't accurately capture. Lopez has to exclusively play the center spot and he isn't doing much of hedging, trapping, switching, etc. Mobley will meet the ballhander beyond the 3P line and recover to the roller, he'll switch onto elite guards, he'll play in a drop, he'll be played at the top of a zone similarly to how KG used to be sometimes utilized, and he'll play at the center position next to basically all guards and wings or he'll play PF next to a traditional big. And he's been successful in both of those positional roles, which has translated to the team defense results.

I also think it says something when many Bucks fans and fans of other teams are pushing Giannis for DPOY (and Jrue is being argued as an All-Defense guy) as well. When fans watching the team every game don't seem to be sure the order of the most impactful defenders of the team, then is Brook really doing most of the heavy lifting? I do personally think he has been the best defender on the team this season, but he's got awesome help and they're making All-Defense cases themselves. On the other hand, you won't find any Cavs fans who think Jarrett Allen has been the best defender on the team this year. It's pretty inarguable to anyone who's watched the games (and taken the time to dissect the advanced metrics rather than just copying and pasting the all-in-one stats) that Mobley is clearly the most valuable defender on the #1 defense in the league and that speaks volumes. Last year, I think Allen was the more important defender to the team, but Mobley has gone to another level while Allen is slightly less active defensively this year.


That's just not the case. A quick trip to the Bucks board or even a look at where this poll sits now shows that Bucks fans understand Brook's value, and that is from the guys that watch every single minute of every game. Giannis starts every season in the top few for DPOY based on reputation alone which will always have him poll well. But it's clear as the season has progressed that it's Brook that is head and shoulders above anyone else as the defensive backbone of the team.

Also, he's literally contested hundreds more shots than the next guy. Hundreds! How is this not taking on more responsibility??


The caveat being that teams often purposely go after Brook more often on offense. And I'm not saying this to denigrate him either. It's because if one of the opponents' guards gets hot it sometimes forces Bud to counter with a small-ish lineup, since Brook is a mountain of a man and it's so hard to score over him in the paint.

To his credit, Brook has also looked quite agile and spry for his size and lateral movement. He's having an awesome year. And now that Bud tweaked the system so that off-ball defenders don't leave open shooters nearly as much their 3pt defense is all the way up to 4th.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#474 » by _NoMas » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:27 pm

SpreeS wrote:DPOY - JJJ

1st JJJ, Lopez, Adebayo, Giannis, Holiday
2nd Mobley, Green, McDaniels, Butler, Caruso


Is it not a 2 guard 3 forward selection like with the all nba teams?
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#475 » by uriah » Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:40 pm

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#476 » by benhillboy » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:37 pm

uriah wrote:
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Yeah, after watching his last two games it was evident to me he deserves it. He defends the floor like he owns it. The ground he covers and his quickness of jump are just too dominant.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#477 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:38 pm

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#478 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:42 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
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How do you feel about the various yung Thund's defensive abilities? Dort came into the NBA ready to go toe-to-toe with elite perimeter players. Do you think anything has changed as he's explored his offensive game more?

I'm curious to collect any insights on Shai/Giddey/Jalen as well as which bigs are the most defensively viable moving forward. I watch a lot of Thunder and feel positively about a lot of their long term defensive potential.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#479 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:38 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Read on Twitter


How do you feel about the various yung Thund's defensive abilities? Dort came into the NBA ready to go toe-to-toe with elite perimeter players. Do you think anything has changed as he's explored his offensive game more?

I'm curious to collect any insights on Shai/Giddey/Jalen as well as which bigs are the most defensively viable moving forward. I watch a lot of Thunder and feel positively about a lot of their long term defensive potential.


I have high hopes for Jalen and Dieng as very versatile man defenders going forward. And Chet has incredible timing and shot blocking ability coming weakside.

Lu is still a lock down perimeter guy.

What they don’t have is a big guy down low. But I think they are going to try to go without?
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset) 

Post#480 » by slick_watts » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:41 pm

lu dort is great one on one with a clear objective. off the ball he isn't as impactful, his lack of wingspan even relative to his teammates shai and j-dub is evident. he will also, sometimes, be a bit too bullish sticking on the ball, causing confusion with teammates on screens who don't know what he's doing (switching or not). against teams with extreme movement off the ball and multiple players who can handle (warriors, suns), he can be crippled.

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