eyeatoma wrote:dygaction wrote:eyeatoma wrote:
Lol just stop.
So you are still a non believer of Jokic..
NBA/ABA playoff all time PER:
1. Nikola Jokić 29.02
2. Michael Jordan* 28.60
3. George Mikan* 28.51
4. LeBron James 27.94
NBA/ABA regular season all time PER:
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.72
3. LeBron James 27.20
NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus
1. Michael Jordan* 11.14
2. Nikola Jokić 10.42
3. LeBron James 10.04
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus
1. Nikola Jokić 9.46
2. Michael Jordan* 9.21
3. LeBron James 8.75
None of those take defense into consideration. The Nuggets did a great job putting a great defensive team around him. He is not in the conversation for GOAT when he only plays one side of the ball. All the others goats or goat contestants are dominant 2 way players in their prime.
You can throw all the stats at me you want, fact of the matter is they do a terrible job measuring defense which is you know half of the game. Y'all should be happy, least I'm not saying Embiid will be goat lol.
But the point is that he is still in the infancy of his career. There are so many player who have won more chips, and more MVPS that are not in the convo, and just because advanced stats love his game, doesn't make him one. The dude will probably retire to his horses in 3-4 years, and if he doesnt' he still has a very, very long way to go.
Jokic is in the goat conversation for greatest offensive player of all time, 100%. But the GOAT, no yet, and it's careless to have this conversation now.
weren't you saying for 3 straight years that his defense is a** and he'll be exposed in the playoffs and will never win a ring with his defense?
now that he has and btw his defense was good during their championship run - ur still claiming his defense is terrible and that defense is "half of the game"?
the Nuggets did a great job putting a "Defensive team" around him, sure. haha
as far as the GOAT convo goes, Jokic won't be the GOAT and isn't the GOAT because we usually measure that through an individual spectrum
what I mean by that is, MJ would have beaten anyone 1 on 1 but the fact of the matter is that on offense - there's only so much you could do yourself. MJ could do more damage himself than Jokic could ever do but there are 4 other players on the floor and Jokic can elevate his teammates more than MJ, so that closes some of the gap between the two when talking about who you'd like to pick for a 5 vs. 5 NBA game. that's just not how we usually define being the "best" or the "greatest" so MJ still has that comfortably (the GOAT talk) and even a couple more MVP's AND rings from Jokic would not change that
MJ made players around him better by being a willing passer and commanding double, triple teams and loads of defensive attention but Nikola (who also commands loads of attention btw) just elevates his teammates more, via his I.Q, movement and GOAT passing.
Jokic can't be doubled successfully because of his unprecedented court awareness and passing, that makes him extremely valuable in a 5 vs. 5 game but it does NOT make him the GOAT.
Jokic has an elite scoring game as well but can you imagine what MJ would look like if he had Jokic's passing and couldn't be doubled?
as for defense, there's a reason why wings seldom win DPOY etc. - there's only so much you do on D as a POA defender on the wing
being 6'11 280 is innately more valuble defensively, just consider Jokic collects defensive rebounds so much easier and uses his size, i.q and positioning to be a pretty impactful defender in his own right
if he was 6'6 and a wing, with his abilities he'd still be a great player but def not at ATG player or even remotely in a top 10 or whatever convo and on D - he'd be very limited but since he's not 6'6 - he makes a big impact, as evident by his defensive on-off year in and year out and also confirmed by both the eye test - and the amount of wins he generates for his team, in the rs and in the playoffs
I asked you time and again in the past couple of seasons: If a Center is the most important piece of the defense that's supposed to anchor the defense and Jokic is a C who is by your claims - a poor defender, how is it that the Nuggets are good defensively? and how come their defense craters when Jokic is sitting on the bench, year after year on huge samples?
how is it that they strolled through the league in last season's run keeping teams to low-ish offensive numbers?
shouldn't have they been easily exploited with the non D Joker "anchoring" their D?
