Safe to say, Chet "Hologram" Holgrem > Paolo Banchero

[basketballRob]

Dude, you just confused the pre-season for the regular season. I was going to avoid rubbing your nose into it, but you're being snotty about it you need to feel some consequences.

Here's the #1 thing: Common sense should have told you that the data you were looking at made no sense. By sharing this data and being so snotty you showed not only that you made the beginner navigation mistake, but that you weren't really able to think this stuff through on your own.

I'm in the middle of a training class at my job, so I don't have time to do a lot of research. Congratulations on putting Paolo in his place after he averaged 32/9/6 in the last 6 games. Only Lebron, Doncic, and TMac have done that at his age

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My friend, you're the one who came into this dialogue with the condescending attitude, not me. And you're the one who said "round here we use..." to 19 year veteran of the site about a resource you clearly aren't that used to using relating to a type of statistic you clearly aren't used to thinking about.

Everyone understands a technical mistake, but when you make them while acting like a brat, you don't get to blame it on your training class. Just change the attitude and you won't have a situation like this.

You're the one who is trying to downplay a barely 21 year old player who just had a 6-game stretch that has only been done by 3 other players younger than him. If you read my posts, I said let the season play out. It's too early to say who was better.


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[Bakomagic]

All I know is……my dad can kick your dad’s butt.

[JT3000]

If I force myself to read any more of this embarrassment of a thread I likely risk finding myself at an AA meeting very soon, and I'm taking all you "Orlando is better with Paolo on the bench" people with me, because you already need an intervention more than I ever will.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Using advanced stats to describe everything is how you end up saying Rudy Gobert is a better offensive & defensive players than Dwight in his prime, when neither are true.

yeah? how would you do that using advanced stats?
and definitely taking Rudy's defense over Dwight's

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Yeah, not to be a dick, but yeah, Rob, if you're arguing that LeBron was a net negative player 4 years in.. you're reading the wrong numbers.

However, I do want to say that diving into numbers without watching the games is dangerous too. If you look back at someone like, say, Iverson.. those stats efficiency wise do not look pretty, but then you see the roster around him and how much attention he drew and how he obviously was the engine of that team, it's a whole diff story.

Paolo still takes a lot of inefficient shots, so-so finisher, FT shooting is hit or miss, turnovers get a bit high some games.. but he demands a lot of attention and until the last 4 games has been working with maybe the worst spacing in the league. The fact that he can still have that sort of gravity as an offensive hub and put up numbers like that as a 21 year old, keeping us in games against way better, healthier teams.. it's only positive in my eyes.

I don't know how Chet would do if he was asked to play the role Paolo is now. I don't know if he's that type of guy yet in terms of being the #1 with a lot of usage and asked to run the offense - but he's perfect for what OKC is wanting to do. If the roles were switched, I feel like Paolo would not be great in a Chet sort of role either where he has to focus on more specific areas.

numbers say that Iverson was ovverrated, what a lot of people gere were saying at the time as well

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Regular season SGA has been garbage most of his career based on advanced stats. No wonder his teams have usually been bad. Hopefully, he doesn't revert back when the schedule gets tough.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628983

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You’re trying to make a point, but Shai’s impact and efficiency numbers on a tanking Thunder team still put Paolo’s to shame.

It looked like he was driving the tank for a few years. His net rating sucked.

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don't say "according to advanced stats" to make a point if you don't understand what they are and what they are saying

[SOUL]

numbers say that Iverson was ovverrated, what a lot of people gere were saying at the time as well

Historically overrated, but looking back, those Sixers teams with that personnel have no business even sniffing the playoffs without him. Not even comparing Paolo to him at all either, because Iverson only shot over 45% once in his career until Denver, 11+ years into his career.

Advanced stats are nice and all until people manipulate it at every turn. Wanna know who used them all the time? Magic fans for years saying Vucevic was a great defender because of his defense rating. He's a solid man defender and rebounder, and advanced stats always loved his defense for some reason... but get him on a switch, he's toast. Help defense? Doesn't exist. Can't guard the perimeter. Paint presence? Nobody is scared of him because he isn't a shot blocker and people would relentlessly drive to the rim.

Hell, nobody is even arguing that Chet isn't efficient and a premier two-way player, which is insane value from a rookie. That alone makes him one of the top valuable young guys in the league and someone you would never, ever trade. But if people are so eager to point out that Paolo "doesn't impact the game" (which is wrong) and ignore the fact that he's basically being asked to do so many different things for our once again 6-7-8 man injured team this year, then let's also not ignore that Chet is playing with a legit MVP candidate and a relatively healthy team full of balanced offensive players. I watched 5 minutes of the Wizards games and I saw 3-4 passes from SGA in a half that I don't think I've ever seen Paolo receive ever from one of our guards, maybe Fultz last year when he was healthy and in his bag a few times.

BTW, this was the same argument people had for Kessler > Paolo for ROY last year. Kessler no doubt affected the game more.. in his role. He was outstanding on defense, advanced stats loved him way more,and yes, he affected winning more in his specific role... but he was a finisher and a good defender. 50% free throws, no passing game, doesn't stretch the floor, not expected to do anything outside of his 4th-5th option role except dunk. Should he be penalized for that? No, but at the same time, you can't compare that 1:1 efficiency vs. efficiency for someone playing a completely different role.

And that's not exactly Chet, he is a legit two-way game changer, but the way people were using arguments of efficiency to downplay Paolo feel similar because it's SO dismissive and they think that Chet would be doing the same thing in Orlando with a bunch of PGs who are either 1. Not healthy 2. Rookies 3. Not PGs..... yeah, those people are clowning themselves.

At some point, the whole purely advanced stats/numbers argument just feels like arguing against OpenAI or something and there's a real sterility to it because it's like people don't watch the games or take any sort of context into account. And this is from someone who hates when Magic fans do the same **** back for Chet just because Paolo has higher raw numbers.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

numbers say that Iverson was ovverrated, what a lot of people gere were saying at the time as well

Historically overrated, but looking back, those Sixers teams with that personnel have no business even sniffing the playoffs without him. Not even comparing Paolo to him at all either, because Iverson only shot over 45% once in his career until Denver, 11+ years into his career.

Advanced stats are nice and all until people manipulate it at every turn. Wanna know who used them all the time? Magic fans for years saying Vucevic was a great defender because of his defense rating. He's a solid man defender and rebounder, and advanced stats always loved his defense for some reason... but get him on a switch, he's toast. Help defense? Doesn't exist. Can't guard the perimeter. Paint presence? Nobody is scared of him because he isn't a shot blocker and people would relentlessly drive to the rim.

Hell, nobody is even arguing that Chet isn't efficient and a premier two-way player, which is insane value from a rookie. That alone makes him one of the top valuable young guys in the league and someone you would never, ever trade. But if people are so eager to point out that Paolo "doesn't impact the game" (which is wrong) and ignore the fact that he's basically being asked to do so many different things for our once again 6-7-8 man injured team this year, then let's also not ignore that Chet is playing with a legit MVP candidate and a relatively healthy team full of balanced offensive players. I watched 5 minutes of the Wizards games and I saw 3-4 passes from SGA in a half that I don't think I've ever seen Paolo receive ever from one of our guards, maybe Fultz last year when he was healthy and in his bag a few times.

BTW, this was the same argument people had for Kessler > Paolo for ROY last year. Kessler no doubt affected the game more.. in his role. He was outstanding on defense, advanced stats loved him way more,and yes, he affected winning more in his specific role... but he was a finisher and a good defender. 50% free throws, no passing game, doesn't stretch the floor, not expected to do anything outside of his 4th-5th option role except dunk. Should he be penalized for that? No, but at the same time, you can't compare that 1:1 efficiency vs. efficiency for someone playing a completely different role.

And that's not exactly Chet, he is a legit two-way game changer, but the way people were using arguments of efficiency to downplay Paolo feel similar because it's SO dismissive and they think that Chet would be doing the same thing in Orlando with a bunch of PGs who are either 1. Not healthy 2. Rookies 3. Not PGs..... yeah, those people are clowning themselves.

At some point, the whole purely advanced stats/numbers argument just feels like arguing against OpenAI or something and there's a real sterility to it because it's like people don't watch the games or take any sort of context into account. And this is from someone who hates when Magic fans do the same **** back for Chet just because Paolo has higher raw numbers.

look, I would just recommend to not dismiss so easily a team worst -10 on/off.
I don't watch the Magic enough to understand what's going on, but that's quite a damning data point about his CURRENT impact that would require some serious explanations that I haven't seen here yet

does it mean Paolo i BAD? No, and he could become better and better, this is not about his talent. But I 'm not buying too fast the notion that his impact this year is superior to Chet's

[lt175]

The Magic would have been dumb to not take Banchero considering their last decade. You just need to watch a game of Banchero and you understand pretty fast. He's exactly what they desperately needed for years. That combo of Banchero and Wagner is lethal.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Banchero is a #1 type. Holmgren is a great role player. Huge difference. Why is the basketball knowledge on here so low?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Banchero is a #1 type. Holmgren is a great role player. Huge difference. Why is the basketball knowledge on here so low?

wow, this is profound

[The Real Dalic]

This is very simple and some people refuse to keep it this simple because some people need to put Paolo and Chet down. Moreso Paolo than Chet, but still.

Both players are high quality young players with the potential to be All-NBA very quickly. Both players are in their perfect role on their respective perfect teams.

Both players are great. It's that simple. Anyone saying one player is overrated or mediocre because of stupid stats while they're both barely even legal drinking age is very dumb.

[tooler]

The funny thing is the original trolls from page 1 are long gone. No one’s proving them wrong because they aren’t paying attention anymore.

[JT3000]

Using advanced stats to describe everything is how you end up saying Rudy Gobert is a better offensive & defensive players than Dwight in his prime, when neither are true.

yeah? how would you do that using advanced stats?
and definitely taking Rudy's defense over Dwight's

Hoooo boy. What else can you even say about this? Speechless.

I don't watch the Magic enough to understand what's going on

Trust me, we know.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Using advanced stats to describe everything is how you end up saying Rudy Gobert is a better offensive & defensive players than Dwight in his prime, when neither are true.

yeah? how would you do that using advanced stats?
and definitely taking Rudy's defense over Dwight's

Hoooo boy. What else can you even say about this? Speechless.

I don't watch the Magic enough to understand what's going on

Trust me, we know.

you very clearly don't, and I've seen enough of both Dwight's and Rudy's career to take the second, of defense.

[Viper1500]

Orlando's #1 option for 10 years was Vucevic. It should be an easy decision on who would benefit the Magic more between Paolo and Chet.
I like Chet, but he has the huge privilege of playing along side a top 5-8 player in the NBA. Chet has no idea what it feels like to be double teamed, which is something Paolo endures each and every game.

[Rainwater]

Man, I can’t wait until Chet and Paolo play one another, this thread will be on lite, lol.

[JT3000]

yeah? how would you do that using advanced stats?
and definitely taking Rudy's defense over Dwight's

Hoooo boy. What else can you even say about this? Speechless.

I don't watch the Magic enough to understand what's going on

Trust me, we know.

you very clearly don't, and I've seen enough of both Dwight's and Rudy's career to take the second, of defense.

We all knew from the moment you first posted in this thread. At this point you're just providing further entertainment.

[Rainwater]

Paolo and Chet are just two different players at the current moment. If you watch the OKC game last night I don’t think Chet took more than 1 dribble to score a basket. Every shot he made was pretty much set up. With how the Magic are right now I really don’t think that helps them. They need someone like Paolo who pretty much does everything offensively. Creates, playmake, spot up, passes, etc. Paolo is basically the SGA for the magic. We are comparing two different play styles. One is more like Lebron less defense while the other is more Dirk but more defense.

[tooler]

With how the Magic are right now I really don’t think that helps them.

Oh it would definitely help them, but unfortunately they can’t have both!